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I noticed that the fusilier with HMG is 10 points cheaper at 19|1 than the Line Kazak with AP HMG at 29|1. Surely the AP ammo is not worth 10 Points? The Line Kazak AP HMG is 3 points cheaper than the Para Commando with HMG who has better PH, BS, ARM and Mimetism plus AD: Parachutist. Is AP ammo really that expensive?

Furthermore the Aquila Guard with HMG is 67|2 while the Veteran Kazak with AP HMG is 61|2. 6 points more for MSVL3, more wounds, better BS and better BTS, that is hardly fair!? Yes the Veteran Kazak has Mimetism (which is ignored by the MSVL3) and AP ammo which is really not that great. Unit points cost doesn't make sence to me in Infinity. The Veteran Kazak is Ariadnas only real HI with "more then one wound" while other factions have many, yes Ariadna has more camo things but even they aren't THAT cheap to make up for it?

Yes an Ariadna player winging about his units not being cheap... well I think I have demostrated that it isnt very fair, especially in regards to the Line Kazak with AP HMG. I would rather they take the AP off it and make in 20|1 rather than 29|1

Erm ...

Aquila guard HMG is 60/2 points, not 67/2.
He costs 1 point more than the multi-rifle dood at 59pts (but 2SWC higher). HMG doesn't have AP, but he has MSV3 instead. MSV might ignore all camo/mimetism, and his BS of 15 allows him some extra leeway in range/cover - but in a non sectorial list, you can only have the ONE (AVA1) vs AVA2 Vet Kazaks. It can still be stymied by impersonation and he still has a rear arc where he can be shot with impunity. He can be hacked immobile (OK, BTS-6 makes it harder, but it can still happen) OR be EM'd immobile (or even glued down with an ADHL).

Vet Kazak is 1 pt more than the AG HMG (not 6 points cheaper).
He also has VETERAN skill (gives him BOTH V:NWI AND SS lvl2) - your HI has effectively 2 wounds (except against viral) and is immune to the other killer of 1w models - shock ammo. So he can ignore guts checks (because of V:NWI which also includes V:courage and V:dogged). He can't be sneaked up on (except by MA lvl4).
He gets to ignore combat camo attacks because of SS lvl2 . He can't be hacked (Ariadna HI can't be) or em'd.

So he has 3 skills over the AG and against most of the other armies, is at an advantage. Vet kazak can dodge a GML shot (non LoF) due to SSlvl2 and gets to react simultaneously to impersonators. The AG can do neither of these.

The place where i got 67|2 for the AG is clearly wrong, my bad. That just makes it even worse that they are THAT good and cheaper than the Vet Kazak. I am yet to kill an AG and my vet kazaks have all died pretty pathetically. Maybe i need to invest in new dice.

Yes, maybe, because my AG died quite rapidly to AP rifles. Not even AP HMG. AP HMG are great to hunt TAGs at a comfortable distance. And you love that, don't you?

Last time I faced an AG it weathered two turns of shooting from a tankhunter with AP HMG and a tankhunter with autocannon taking one wound only to kill then both with its ARO. I have also not yet faced a TAG.

I think my complaint is more that we are paying an AP ammo tax on a weapon that is only effective about 50% of the time. It has no effect on ARM 1 models which is usually what 50% of peoples forces are made up of. If AP ammo halved armour and rounded down then it would be worth it

Again, though, if you are using AP weapons on ARM1 models, then it's not the AP HMG's fault that it is not that effective.

Sure, if you paid through the nose for the AP and it is useless, then you get through the game as well as you can. But if the enemy has brought a lot of armour on relatively few models, then you'll be doubly happy.

AP HMGs are VERY vicious. They deserve their point cost lol. pt for Pt they are certified TAG killers.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Again, though, if you are using AP weapons on ARM1 models, then it's not the AP HMG's fault that it is not that effective.

Sure, if you paid through the nose for the AP and it is useless, then you get through the game as well as you can. But if the enemy has brought a lot of armour on relatively few models, then you'll be doubly happy.

this is my point, i do pay through the nose and it is largely useless. Okay the gun is good, but it is on a Line Infantry model which are incredibly bad, that cant stand against anything in the reactive turn and in their active turn they are not much better. my problem isnt with the AP HMG, its the fact that i have to pay heaps to get a good gun on a bad guy, same with the line kazak with missile launcher "why not use a tankhunter or a vet kazak" i hear you say, because they are hard to fit into a 150 point list without having 5+ Kazak rifles, they also do not fit the theme of a light infantry list which we have been playing because of a 150 point ITS in April. If i am using it against ARM1 models then it IS the fault of the weapon that it is not effective... fancy that, AP ammo not piercing light armour? It is also one of the only viable line kazak options other than the sniper rifle.

Solution, give line kazaks a non AP HMG option at ~22|0.5 points

it's not that AP doesn't piece light armor, it's just that the round isn't any more effective against light armor then a regular HMG round. Once again the weapon gives you ability to murder heavy infantry and TAGs and thus why it costs so many points. if you want a regular HMG at a cheaper cost that is what the frenchies and scots are there for. Russians however like the big pricey gun that can tear a Jotum in half.

urg... again... Metros and Volunteers =/= kazak. Does theme mean nothing to you people!

Correct they do not equal a kazak, so why are you trying to make them have the same point cost and loadout? The Russian use AP HMGs, that's how they roll.

If you read above I said they should do a Kazak option of a HMG with no AP ammo and make it 22ish points

I think this discussion has run its course, im not going to be convinced that a line kazak with a HMG is worth 29|1. Thanks all for taking part

But as he said above, the Kazaks are all about big weapons =P

I find the Line Kazaks to be really great for their cost actually.
Maybe it's just how and depending on what you are facing that they might not be up to the task

But as for the AP HMG on the line kazak, I too, would spend the points/SWC on someone else first.
Let's wait for the sectorial =)

Exactly what I mean, that is not the Russian models way. AP ammo is russians things. Look at Vet Kazzak and Tank hunters all AP HMG. It is one of those options centered around future linking. Eventually you will have link Kazzak with 5 shot AP HMG.

Well recently it was an all Mrymidon list. I killed 2 out of 7 models and he killed 10 out of 10 with a full turn to spare. 2 models made it out of my deployment zone (and then got critted)

What was your list ?

Yep that Ap HMG will be drastically overcosted vs myrmidons. The ODD will make yout kazaks miss a barn and the AP is wasted on theit armor. It is meant for things like a Marut, Asura, or Ajax.

MSV3 is useless waste of points against non-camo/odd units, AP is useless waste of points against light-armoured units, and hackers are usually a waste of points against Ariadna. That's kinda how this games works.

Whats not useless against myrm link is a chain rifle or better yet two chain rifles on a 3 wound model with a super jump for 28 points. It's kazak unit too, if you want to keep the theme.

Yes, I have decided that I'm going to break out the Dog Warriors next time. Ill try and fit two in my 150pt list

Just watch out for Viral (or haqqislam in general).
It's death for them.