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This thread has taken a recent divergance from it's original intention and has been about building and expanding the On the Lamb Community. Please come in, give your thoughts we'll be back to your regularly schedule programing soon

The Wardens are the official On the Lamb Games volunteers and event organizers. Wardens volunteer their time and effort at their local stores and conventions, promoting and supporting On the Lamb Games products.
If you’re interested in having some fun, socializing with your fellow gamers, then it might be time to take up the mantle and become a Warden.
Are You Ready to Join Our Ranks?

Requirements
1) An understanding of Brushfire and/or Endless: Fantasy Tactics, and the ability to teach others to play this games.
2) Three digital photos: One of yourself, and either two Brushfire Warbands or two 6 Crystal Parties for Endless Fantasy: Tactics; all models should be painted.
3) Join DakkaDakka.com to participate in the official On the Lamb Games forums.

Expectations
As a Warden, you are expected to run one Brushfire or Endless Fantasy event a month. Campaigns, leagues, and any other event you can come up with are accepted and encouraged, both Brushfire and Endless have great rules for Campaigns, and you’re always welcome to use your own campaign rules.

Wardens have a semi-official voice of On the Lamb Games, they represent the company. This means that when you say something, you must realize that in a lot of ways you're speaking as though your word comes from us. Of course this is always important when it comes to politeness and courtesy, but also when it comes to discussing rules. Wardens should also strive to be upbeat and energetic when talking about On the Lamb games

Be Knowledgeable! At your events, you’re the official voice when it comes to the rules. We understand that everyone has slightly different interpretations of the rules, but we expect Wardens to know our games, and know them well enough to teach them. If you’re unsure about a rule, check the rulebook. If you’re still unsure, make a ruling and ask us after the event.

Be Active in the On the Lamb community. Part of being a Warden is helping people when you can. We want you to be as active as possible in your local communities, but we also ask that you be active in the online community. DakkaDakka.com is the home of the official On the Lamb forums, and we would hope that you’re able to participate in this awesome community, sharing your knowledge with other players.

Rewards
We are putting the final touches on rewards. Fret not we realize that time is important, and that you are using your free time to promote On the Lamb products, but we're not quite finished with this part.

Ready to Enlist?
Head to the form!

You'll have my services eventually but I need some games and such under my belt first.

I'm thinking about it.

I'm kinda doing this already and I made one guy planning to buy some Brushfire minis, but the continental distance might be a problem.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I'm thinking about it.

I'm kinda doing this already and I made one guy planning to buy some Brushfire minis, but the continental distance might be a problem.

Continental distance? Do you live in Hungary, and the other guy lives in like south east Asia?

Or are you referring to the continental difference between us here in the states and you in Hungary? If that's the case, lol don't worry about it. The more international support Brushfire gets, the better

The other guy lives here too.

I"m referring to the distance in kilometers. I bet the international support would be good, but -for example- the post price rates are horrible.

But if it's okay, then I'll think about it some more.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
The other guy lives here too.

I"m referring to the distance in kilometers. I bet the international support would be good, but -for example- the post price rates are horrible.

But if it's okay, then I'll think about it some more.

Well, we already ship things world wide if I'm not mistaken (how did you get your first few Brushfire figs if we didn't ).

Just support the game when and how you can. If you join the Wardens, awesome, if not, no worries.

How strictly are we going to be held to the one event a month minimum?

Also are we given some sort of club or do we need to provide our own?

How are we have to prove our games and events? I bet we have to.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

Also are we given some sort of club or do we need to provide our own?

OTLG Orange 'Friendship Sticks' will be one of the swag options.

 Catyrpelius wrote:
How strictly are we going to be held to the one event a month minimum?

I will send the Inquisition after you and you shall be spun on a spit as your feet are held to the flames. In all honestly when we say, "1 OTL event a month" We're mostly expecting that some night at your game store will be an OTL game night, nothing super organized. Just pick up games, or whatever catches your fancy.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
How are we have to prove our games and events? I bet we have to.

I've got a form written out, but I need to decide if I'm making it web based or if I'm going to do it email based. Web based would be easier in the long run of things, but email base takes less work. Though if it's web based, that immediately puts us ahead of other game companies

In this age of cell phone cameras, even a quick snapshot of folks at your LGS playing would "prove" you ran a game. Its something you can then upload to facebook/twitter. Mention your store and you're helping them out too.

 miskatonicalum wrote:
In this age of cell phone cameras, even a quick snapshot of folks at your LGS playing would "prove" you ran a game. Its something you can then upload to facebook/twitter. Mention your store and you're helping them out too.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking for the simple like OTL night... larger events would probably still require some level of "bookkeeping"

Hmmm...

I think for now I'm just going to sit back and do my own OTL non official stuff in my gaming area.

Oh... you need to have twitter and/or facebook and you have to fill it with pictures playing the game.

Okay, that's not too bad. Anything else?

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Oh... you need to have twitter and/or facebook and you have to fill it with pictures playing the game.

Okay, that's not too bad. Anything else?

You don't need a facebook, twitter, etc... These are just tools if you're planning on using them to promote. Like I occasionally post things I painted or Brushfire stuff on my personal facebook. If you don't have one, you can skip those questions (as they're not required).

And if you take pictures of people playing OTL games, you can upload them to Dakka and post them in a thread if you want. Though posting them to your store's facebook page (if they have one) and tagging On the Lamb is decently simple.

I have decided to volunteer to be a Warden.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I have decided to volunteer to be a Warden.

Fill out the application yet?

I have to make those photos first. It can take a while.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I have to make those photos first. It can take a while.

That's fine WhiteRoo, I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing an email that I should have gotten

3 and 1/2 months later, I'm guessing this "position" hasn't been in too much demand. The OP text here kind of epitomizes the problem with OTL at the moment- expectations that people help, but nothing in return.

WhiteRoo is such a trooper, and it's great. He signed up for the Warden program, and is pretty much the only person who could stick it out in the rules feedback thread.

But not taking feedback well, and not reciprocating fan enthusiasm, is taking what was a pretty vibrant indie movement on Dakka and making it... pretty much empty in here.

I still love the background, and I've been quiet as I felt you guys might take the feedback better just from seeing results. But the results, so far, are that interest has lagged... as has this subforum.

I didn't want to make a new thread for this, as I don't really want to belabor the point. Suffice it to say, I really hope you guys see where things are heading and turn it around! I am not going to engage in a debate on this... just wanted to make an observation and say that I really hope you see the trend and respond (i.e., modify your company stance towards feedback and your inteaction with fans) accordingly.

Still hoping for the best for OTL... you have such a great background and there is so much potential! I absolutely love my hamster berserker horde and one day hope there will be a more positive environment for me to contribute to the game in. Until then, I have lots of other projects to work on and it's fine... I think people are voting with their wallets and OTL will have to modify it's behavior one way or the other to thrive.

I'm sorry to hear you feel that we are not taking input seriously, or just flat out ignoring it. I personally feel we are very open and communicative, sharing the production process both of making our minis and the development of our rules.

We really do appreciate feedback that we receive, especially from Whiteroo, who has been constantly letting us know about issues, and we listened to many of them. These updates take time, and are not instantly put into the book. We debate comments received internally and arrive at our own decisions. We then also take the time to explain our reasonings for changing or not changing them to the community in that same thread. (Like this post)

But we cannot just accept every piece of commentary and work it in. Games are not designed by committee, and we cannot hope to please every gamer, not to say we do not try.

I think if you look back through the last 5 or so pages of the Playtest thread, you will find I agree with many of the suggestions Whiteroo makes, and a new Update is coming to 2.0 this week that will include many of the clarifications he has asked for.

I hope you will at least continue to follow the OTL sub-forum, drop in once and a while, and let us know what you think of our games going forward. If you feel there are changes to the rules or anything else to be made, please let us know.

I do certainly follow this sub-forum (quite frequently!), and I also find that you take feedback fairly well, miskatonicalum, as the rules writer (and I understand there are limitations to how much you can take for the rules). The lack of taking feedback I meant in a more general sense.

Thank you for the excellent reply, it is much appreciated!

Also, WhiteRoo has not signed up for the Warden program yet , and yes he is a trooper he has been immeasurable in finding issues.

While I have come across as abrasive it is because many of the issues that I have responded to feel like they've been answered many times and I felt like a broken record, and it's something that I've been trying to work on. This is one of the main reason why I've become a lurker in the rules feedback thread. I've taken a much more backseat roll with Brushfire's development due to a variety of reasons, and so I have not been commenting with the frequency that I had.

I'm sorry that you feel as you do RiTides, and much like Misk I do hope you stick around, contribute where and when you can.

Edit: ninja'd by the 'Tides himself


Edit the second: As for the idea of expecting help, but offering nothing in return we (and I especially) realize that no one volunteers for a program like this without the idea of a reward/appreciation in return. As it stands right now I would much rather people teach this game, and contribute on their own as they see the need to, but with a small following the Warden program was an idea I had and pitched to Matt and Em, and it was something we discussed for a while. The biggest thing that I was having trouble figuring out is how to compensate the people that spend their time demoing Brushfire and running events, and with the size of the company it doesn't seem possible to do it in such a way that I wish we could. I've been thinking of other ideas as I branch out and see how other companies run their volunteer programs, and I've got a few ideas. I just need to scratch them down on some paper and edit it after getting approval from the higher ups.

I don't want to pile on here or anything but I feel it's beneficial if I throw in a couple of cents of my own into the discussion.

Firstly I agree with everything RiTides has said and have had exactly the same thoughts. Honestly, I'm struggling to put my finger on the problem but I feel like the community is lacklustre and without support.

I see WhiteRoo tenaciously plugging away and you, misk, making changes here and there but I view the changes as trivial. They are clarifications I expect to be in a final product anyway. The bigger changes suggested in the past are seen as a no go which is fine I suppose but thats just an example of a more general problem.

I wonder if the greater problem is that OTL have lost their enthusiasm? Enthusiasm spreads like wildfire but that's not happening, as time passes fans seem to be drifting away from Brushfire. I'm experiencing this first hand, I'm not sure when I last checked this sub forum and I just had to look for my box of Brushfire. This is inconceivable living in such as small house and where my budget makes purchases like that a serious consideration. I love the models and the universe but it's not enough somehow.

I think it's obvious from looking at the Corvus subforum that I am prepared to give a heck of a lot to a company I feel enthusiastic about. I'm just not feeling it here, often when I visit this community I end up leaving with a much less positive attitude rather than with renewed excitement.

If you are honestly still enthusiastic about Brushfire then what do you think the reason is that it isn't being passed on to us?

Again, I don't want to pile into this conversation negatively. My intention is to offer constructive feedback to you and I hope it provokes some changes. If you don't want to make changes or don't see the problem then I'm not going to be annoyed, upset or angry... just apathetic. Which is the problem already. As RiTides said, the vote with your wallet policy is probably in action and is a very true estimation of how the product is going.

I cannot say why our enthusiasm is not being passed on. We're very excited about both Brushfire and Endless. We're in full production mode for Endless at the moment, working our fastest to get the Kickstarter orders out. Every time we drop some into the post office, I get excited!

We've also been in a lull for the last few months, our Convention schedule has been empty to give us the time and concentration to fulfill our Endless orders. Combined with a lack of new releases, as we're releasing 20+ models all at once at Gencon, there has been no influx of new players to bolster the community.

At this point I'm just making excuses though. The only thing I can hope is that people see the work we've been putting into revamping Brushfire and creating Endless. I hope that they find the miniatures neat, that they like the rules and want to share them with their friends.

Edit: If the community feels there is something specific we can do to improve our relationship, I would be happy to try it. I've thought about starting a blog to share the day-to-day, or more likely week-to-week, goings on at OTL. Is that something that would interest folks, or would something else be preferred?

Just a few thoughts from me as kind of a way for me to dive back into the Brushfire sub-forums...

There are two types of feedback that you need to pay extra special attention too... The first is feedback from me, I'm always right. Second is feedback from people that have taught themselves the game. A large percentage of people in this forum have either been taught the game by Matt or Emily or have been taught the game by someone closely associated with them. While this is overall a good thing it does give these people a level of understanding that might not be known by someone reading the rulebook. Think of it as a I know what you intended but he only knows what you wrote kind of thing. People that haven't learned the game from the creators are invaluable. So invaluable that there is a name for them... Blind Play Testors.... However you really need more then one.

Alf... Your gakky attitude... I haven't actually seen it and generally I find you pleasent even if your models do need a wash... But if it's being brought up then it must be happening somewhere, unintentianally or not... You just need to bear in mind that for better or worse you're now a face of OTL and what you do will reflect back on the company. A snippy comment may not seem like much but you'd be suprised of the effect it can have. Remember to the average person your an important salary drawing person at OTL, while to others your the 4th most important person at OTL.

The Warden program this is really a discussion we should have in person because it's going to take far to long to type but I'll give you a bit of a run down...

In another thread about someone thinking about starting a game you gave some advice that ran about like this, "Don't let people see something that isn't finished". Unfortunatly for all invovled you didn't follow your own advice... You'd be amazed at what people will do for game companies for free. You'd be even more amazed at what people will do for free when they feel included. IMO you've done a horrible job of that. Instead of making people feel like their part of something new and exciting you've made them feel like they are applying for a job.

How would I have done it differently?

Everyone whose been associated with Brushfire so far, those who's name or user name quickly spring to mind, those people that have done stuff for you without asking for anything in return are automatically made Warden's. Give them the distinction of being the originals...

Startup a news letter that goes out to them. Ask them not to share it with their gameing groups, make it look official. Fill it with stuff you don't mind leaking, never before seen pictures, stories and directions your thinking of taking. It can be 100% BS but that doesn't matter all your trying to do is include people.

Give them a discount... I know your a small company but look at it this way. Your stuff is avalible from the Warstore at a 15% discount. You probably sell it to them wholesale so your probably only getting 50% or 60% of that. If you give your Wardens a 20% discount to your online store your already coming out ahead compared to them ordering from The Warstore.

This is really a conversation that we can have at Gencon...

Thanks for the reply. I believe your genuine enthusiasm and it jumps out of that post, it makes me want to reply!

I don't want to corner you and force you into making excuses or anything, please don't feel under attack. I'm speaking as a friend and consumer.

You mention a lack of new players. Do you know why that is? Looking at that as business man alone I'd find it worrying and be trying to find out why. If you don't have any new customers and old customers are drifting then I'd suggest something needs to be fixed. There is a spanner somewhere in your works. Personally I'd be itching to take the machine apart and find the problem so I could repair it.

I look at your decisions and practices and I would go about things very differently, maybe that's just me or maybe things need to be done differently to be more successful. Is OTL possibly too much of a hobby and not enough of a business? Do the business aspects not get you excited? If not then maybe you could use a counterpart to do your marketing type stuff, someone to structure your business' face for the consumers benefit?

What I'm thinking is that it's this communication issue that's the problem. You have a product with potential and it gets you excited but it's a very internal project that doesn't communicate with your consumer and discourages community. Could this be the case or am I way off?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd. Caty has said some brilliant things that you should listen too for sure. Sadly I just don't find I have the energy to give advice like this although I may have in the past.

 Casey's Law wrote:
You mention a lack of new players. Do you know why that is? Looking at that as business man alone I'd find it worrying and be trying to find out why. If you don't have any new customers and old customers are drifting then I'd suggest something needs to be fixed. There is a spanner somewhere in your works. Personally I'd be itching to take the machine apart and find the problem so I could repair it.

This is an outsider point of view, but I see the actual state of OTLG as quite normal. Their first game is in preparation for a second edition and the second one is not yet available to the public. It's a lull in new players creation, but understandable. I don't know a lot of players who jump on a game just before a change of edition. Most of them simply wait for the official release, to get finalized stuff. Endless is simply not available. Sure people could get the pdf, but not models. Once again, like with BF, it's a question of time more than interest.

I'm pretty sure that once Endless is released and BF2.0 is out, the influx of new players will get far better.

"Don't let people see something that isn't finished". Unfortunately for all involved you didn't follow your own advice...

I'm not sure what this is referring to. I think that people feel more involved when they get 'in on the ground floor' as it were. Or in the case of playtesting, the basement. I've spent a good portion of time taking in comments and what not, but I also feel its really important to share our reasoning for how the game's rules are, even if we do not change what people have asked for. ESPECIALLY when we don't change them. We could just be silent and 'absorb' comments, and deal with them completely internally, but I've always found that its easier to swallow an odd rule if I at least understand the background to it, and the motivation for using it instead of another, and I hope y'all find it the same way.

Warden/Discount/Secret Emails

We like what you've said there, we'll see what we can do. This concept I think would apply both to Dakkanauts and Kickstarters. (This ties into a comment from Casey) We've got a lot of new OTL gamers on our Kickstarters, and despite prodding, few have made the jump from Facebook/Kickstarter to Dakka. So these players exist, they are just not here. Consolidation of the community appears to be difficult.

@Casey

Cutting through the metaphors, its a lot harder to take a company apart and examine what isnt work, than it is a machine. Introspection is a tough skill to master and asking for help from others is often easier, and magnifies the brainpower used to solve the problem. It's why games run playtesting.


As for a business counterpart...Cyporiean is very much the business person, she handles getting convention space, she runs the Facebook page and the Kickstarter, she talks to distributors, artists, sculptors, and production facilities. I write the books, both the game mechanics and the world building.

I look at your decisions and practices and I would go about things very differently, maybe that's just me or maybe things need to be done differently to be more successful. .... What I'm thinking is that it's this communication issue that's the problem. You have a product with potential and it gets you excited but it's a very internal project that doesn't communicate with your consumer and discourages community. Could this be the case or am I way off?

Dealing in vagaries for such an important issue is difficult. Other than our Warden Program, which we'll work on, how do you feel we could do 'things' differently? Which things?

What are our communication issues? Like I said in a previous post, would a blog, or regularly scheduled topic/thread be a way to communicate/foster a community?

 Catyrpelius wrote:
Alf... Your gakky attitude... I haven't actually seen it and generally I find you pleasent even if your models do need a wash... But if it's being brought up then it must be happening somewhere, unintentianally or not... You just need to bear in mind that for better or worse you're now a face of OTL and what you do will reflect back on the company. A snippy comment may not seem like much but you'd be suprised of the effect it can have. Remember to the average person your an important salary drawing person at OTL, while to others your the 4th most important person at OTL.

Agreed, and it's a transition that I'm working on. Like I had said, I realize I was getting too hot headed and it's part of the reason why I stepped back. I'd be completely okay if no one new I worked for OTL, and the third name in the book was just some dude (instead of being associated with me). And I'd be okay just saying, "Hey I just volunteer for OTL, they make games I like to play and are fun to play."

In another thread about someone thinking about starting a game you gave some advice that ran about like this, "Don't let people see something that isn't finished". Unfortunatly for all invovled you didn't follow your own advice... You'd be amazed at what people will do for game companies for free. You'd be even more amazed at what people will do for free when they feel included. IMO you've done a horrible job of that. Instead of making people feel like their part of something new and exciting you've made them feel like they are applying for a job.

I'm terrible at following my own advice, and often need a snarky fella from new jersey to put me back on the straight and narrow, for that, thanks caty . And you're right, when I first wrote this thread up, I looked at it as a job and within the past month the idea of a "game company volunteer" has changed from the idea of being a job to going out and showing people a game you enjoy because you enjoy that game

How would I have done it differently?

Everyone whose been associated with Brushfire so far, those who's name or user name quickly spring to mind, those people that have done stuff for you without asking for anything in return are automatically made Warden's. Give them the distinction of being the originals...

Startup a news letter that goes out to them. Ask them not to share it with their gaming groups, make it look official. Fill it with stuff you don't mind leaking, never before seen pictures, stories and directions your thinking of taking. It can be 100% BS but that doesn't matter all your trying to do is include people.

I have no problem doing that, I realize that my first efforts were a bit of a failure, and I have no problem working on developing a program that works for us and isn't just a copy of other programs. I can rely on other programs that I've experienced as a sounding board (i.e. seeing how other things work), and I don't have to implement them here, but I can see what works or how it doesn't work and how to get it to work.

Give them a discount... I know your a small company but look at it this way. Your stuff is avalible from the Warstore at a 15% discount. You probably sell it to them wholesale so your probably only getting 50% or 60% of that. If you give your Wardens a 20% discount to your online store your already coming out ahead compared to them ordering from The Warstore.

Something Em and I discussed and it's certainly something we can discuss again and again and again. I think a discount/working towards points that can be redeemed for stuff is probably the good solid option. But I want to make sure that however we reward and thank our Wardens for their hard work is worth their time and is feasible for OTL as a company.

This is really a conversation that we will have at Gencon...

Fixed that for you.

And Misk, as to the comment about not letting people seeing something that isn't finished, it was a comment I made up in Dakka discussions.