Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Azreal
5 Black Knights, Grenade Launcher
5 Black Knights, Grenade Launcher
Dark Shroud
5 man Tactical Squad Multi Melta, Power fist, drop pod, combi Melta, Veteran Sergeant,
Ravenwing Command Squad, Banner of fortitude, grenade launcher
Space Marine Librarian on bike, Lvl 2, Auspex, Conversion Field
3 man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squadron, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta, Melta Bombs, Multi Melta Attack Bike, Landspeeder 2 Heavy Flamers,
3 man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squadron, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta, Melta Bombs, Multi Melta Attack Bike, Landspeeder 2 Heavy Flamers,
3 man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squadron, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta, Melta Bombs, Multi Melta Attack Bike,
1850
This is where my thinking is with the RW at the moment. I don’t like Sammy, he never seems to do much, his warlord trait is superfluous and, being a white scar player, it’s hard to find a decent stand in. Azreal, on the other hand, is represented very well by the Korsorro Khan model. I also think he’s a better choice, even in a pure RW army. He comes down with a tactical squad and they shoot off their meltas and his plasma gun, slagging a vehicle or some elite infantry. Armed as they are they cannot be ignored, and they have a 4+ invulnerable save (and FNP if near objectives) and can take on vehicles and monstrous creatures. They are also scoring and unlike anything else in my army can climb ruins!
The Black Knights, Ravenwing command squad and dark shroud all turbo boost turn one. They all have a 2+ cover save and FNP. If people shoot at them they can soak it up and everything else gets a free pass. If people don’t shoot at them then they hit like a ton of bricks.
Everyone else has a melta gun. Scout move + melta + bike = awesome. With this many melta guns it is unlikely that any vehicles will survive turn one in any set up with the exception of hammer and anvil.
The librarian I am unsure about. I’d probably take divination with him, at the worst I can twin link some meltas. His equipment was the only way I could think to spend the last 20 points but I’m sure others will have better ideas. I have had good results with an interrogator chaplain with the mace of redemption but I need to play test both types.
Finally, and perhaps most controversially, I think that the banner of devastation is weaker than the banner of fortitude. T5 bikes will still get FNP vs. template weapons (heldrakes) and other AP3 ignore cover shenanigans, you don’t have to bunch up like you do with the BoD and once you deduct the cost of the mandatory apothecary it is cheaper. FNP is good with elite armies and the whole army can benefit without having to bunch up too much.
What do you think Dakka? Is this list any good?

You cant have a Ravenwing Command Squadron with Azrael, only Sammael unlocks them.

The command squad is unlocked by the Librarian on the bike. Any HQ on a bike unlocks them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nobody have any constructive comments?

Sigh.

I have looked over and over, everybody seems to be doing lv2 libby. Is there a reason or just a points sink? I think this list almost exactly what ive been trying to accomplish since I have been tinkering with this codex.

Thanks mate.
The Lvl 2 Libby is mainly so I can roll an extra power, and use both. It's also novelty because they are cheap in the new dex, so you may as well. Like I said an interogator chaplain with the mace of redemption is also a strong choice and I actually have a converted chaplain on a bike so thats what I've been using with a fair amount of success. The libby amplifies units in the army while the chaplain is more simple as he just races about bashing stuff with his mace. I could take a Lvl 1 libby and include an exra flamer speeder though...

So, you snap fire a multi-melta and shoot a combi melta, then Azrael and the Tactical marines get turned into slag? You'd be better off switching the multi-melta in a squad for a normal meltagun, because your multi-melta is pretty much worthless the turn it comes down.

All of your scoring comes down to 9 bikes, 3 attack bikes and, 5 tactical marines. At 1850, this is stretching it a bit thin, even though yes, they are mostly bikes. I've seen enough bike armies get folded over by Vindicators/AP3 weapons to rely too heavily on their T5.

Heck, someone can negate your bikes ability to score by standing on a second level of a ruin, and prevent you from contesting by putting the objective on the third level.

Of course, not every gaming area/store has plenty of ruins to choose from, but...

Anyways, the Black Knights/Dark Shroud are going to be a pretty tough target to crack on the first turn. If you get first turn, you'll get that nice 2+ save to hide behind. If your opponent does, you'll get a 3+ save, due to your scout move.

As well, while the banner of fortitude does give you better survivability, the Banner of Dakka gives you much more firepower. However, in this situation, due to your low model count, it probably is indeed better to get the Fortitude banner.

The biggest thing you have to worry about is your opponent focusing down your scoring units. Since 5/6 of the primary missions are Objective based, you have to worry about your ability to score. Not to mention that, even if it is a Kill Point mission, you do have 16 (since each Attack Bike and Land Speeder are considered seperate units once they are deployed) Kill Points to hand out to your opponent. (not even mentioining that Azrael is pretty much a free kill point/Slay the Warlord to whomever drops some pie plates on his squad after it comes down.)

I think if you could get your landspeeders a typhoon rocket launcher they would survive a lot longer. There is so much bad stuff coming at the opponent on turn 1 that he;s probably not going to fixate on the two 75 pt skimmers 48 inches away that are doing a little damage every turn till they really pay for themselves. I think the flamer outfit it just setting them up to get beast moded by anything that can take hull points off an AV-10 platform at close range. Which is pretty much everything in the game.

Have you thought about combining the black knights and tossing the librarian in there? Like with, say 7 knights.

I would recommend it- the auspex can really harsh somebodies whole day when his toughness has been dropped by one and every plasma shot that makes it through his reduced cover is instakilling stuff. Broadsides in cover? lol. Nobs turboboosting? lol. Tryanid warriors? lolololol.

Crazyterran wrote:


Anyways, the Black Knights/Dark Shroud are going to be a pretty tough target to crack on the first turn. If you get first turn, you'll get that nice 2+ save to hide behind. If your opponent does, you'll get a 3+ save, due to your scout move.

Jink says specifically it is only good if you moved in their movement phase. If you go 2nd on your opponents first turn you've not had a movement phase. So you'll be at +5 cover with the darkshroud unless I've missed something. Also, its a scout redeployment not a scout move so nothing much to say there. BRB pgs 38 and 41.

For the list:
From my reading DA Codex pg 101, you need 6 bikers in one squad to buy a speeder. So I think you have some issues there.
I agree on the multi-melta. I doubt you'll want that squad to stand still. I would switch it out to a melta and be more aggressive with your drop POD. Unless you plan on podding down on an objective and not moving the rest of the game.
I like the Black Knights and Darkshroud, but I disagree on Sammy. In my games he's pretty deadly, Ap2 attacks at initiative are ruthless. Sure at range he's meh... Only issue is you may end up killing the opposing unit in melee and if you're relying on hit and run in the opponents assault phase you may be out of luck.
I like the banner as well for this list.
I am concerned on the number of scoring units. 3 man bike squads with out skilled rider aren't that difficult to pick off. Yes you've got T5 and potentially 3+/5+ cover saves and a potential FNP. Just be ready to get them out and hidden to contest/steal an objective late game. Your tactical marines will be slightly harder to kill, again, if you plan on podding on an objective and camping it the whole game you might be ok with 4++ and FNP.

1) Switch Azrael to Sammael (he gives skilled riderz to his unit !)
2) a lot of your weapons are already TL, remove that Librarian, especially if you don't know why he's here
3) MOAR (regular) bikerz !
4) if you want melta in a drop pod, take Veterans with combi-meltas (and remove that PFist, he'll get shot anyway)
5) Speeders are indeed illegal under 6 bikes in a ravenwing squadron

You have way to many bikerz to bring in Azreal. Now this would be a different story if you were bringing in Termies too. IMO, you have plenty of Melta. Honestly, would swap some of that melta out, tacticals, speeders (they are illegal anyways), Banner of Fortitude, and Azreal. I would bring in more RAS bikers to your squads, Banner of Devastation, Sammual, and bring in a Interragator-Chaplin on a bike.

For tatics; I would put Sammaul in with either the command squad or one of Black Knight units and the Interragator-Chaplin with one of the Black Knights. Additonally, I would keep that bubble around the Banner to get those awesome servo rounds and you could possibly table your oppenent! Good Luck man

Thanks for all of these helpful responses! I've not had much luck getting people to comment on my lists until now so your comments are much appreciated.

Crazyterran wrote:So, you snap fire a multi-melta and shoot a combi melta, then Azrael and the Tactical marines get turned into slag? You'd be better off switching the multi-melta in a squad for a normal meltagun, because your multi-melta is pretty much worthless the turn it comes down.

All of your scoring comes down to 9 bikes, 3 attack bikes and, 5 tactical marines. At 1850, this is stretching it a bit thin, even though yes, they are mostly bikes. I've seen enough bike armies get folded over by Vindicators/AP3 weapons to rely too heavily on their T5.

Heck, someone can negate your bikes ability to score by standing on a second level of a ruin, and prevent you from contesting by putting the objective on the third level.

Of course, not every gaming area/store has plenty of ruins to choose from, but...

Anyways, the Black Knights/Dark Shroud are going to be a pretty tough target to crack on the first turn. If you get first turn, you'll get that nice 2+ save to hide behind. If your opponent does, you'll get a 3+ save, due to your scout move.

As well, while the banner of fortitude does give you better survivability, the Banner of Dakka gives you much more firepower. However, in this situation, due to your low model count, it probably is indeed better to get the Fortitude banner.

The biggest thing you have to worry about is your opponent focusing down your scoring units. Since 5/6 of the primary missions are Objective based, you have to worry about your ability to score. Not to mention that, even if it is a Kill Point mission, you do have 16 (since each Attack Bike and Land Speeder are considered seperate units once they are deployed) Kill Points to hand out to your opponent. (not even mentioining that Azrael is pretty much a free kill point/Slay the Warlord to whomever drops some pie plates on his squad after it comes down.)

You are, of course, correct about the multi melta. Its points neutral so I'll rectify this when I post an updated list tomorrow. Bike lists always have a low model count, but most of the things that kill bikes are mounted on vehicles which this list is good at killing. I wouldn't expect any vindicators to survive my first turn, regardless if I went first or second. As far as ruins goes, thats part of the disadvantage of playing a bike list. My FLGS players dont tend to put objectives high in ruins when playing my bike army to be sportsmanlike,but I understand that this would be a problem in a more competitive environment. I take your point about kill points and scoring units and my next list will reflect that.

Silverthorne wrote:I think if you could get your landspeeders a typhoon rocket launcher they would survive a lot longer. There is so much bad stuff coming at the opponent on turn 1 that he;s probably not going to fixate on the two 75 pt skimmers 48 inches away that are doing a little damage every turn till they really pay for themselves. I think the flamer outfit it just setting them up to get beast moded by anything that can take hull points off an AV-10 platform at close range. Which is pretty much everything in the game.

Have you thought about combining the black knights and tossing the librarian in there? Like with, say 7 knights.

I would recommend it- the auspex can really harsh somebodies whole day when his toughness has been dropped by one and every plasma shot that makes it through his reduced cover is instakilling stuff. Broadsides in cover? lol. Nobs turboboosting? lol. Tryanid warriors? lolololol.

The speeders will be deep striking, I'm sorry,I should have made that clear. This list has little to deal with hordes and/or light infantry and that is why I've included them. This is actually my favourite speeder loadout these days because its cheap and effective. You are right about those typhoons however, especially as Dark angel ones are so cheap! I ran two of them in a recent tournament and they were dynamite, espeically when near a dark shroud. In that same list I ran a unit of 9 Black nights with the interogator chaplain. It was effective, but overkill. That's why I think two smaller units would be better.

chimay wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:


Anyways, the Black Knights/Dark Shroud are going to be a pretty tough target to crack on the first turn. If you get first turn, you'll get that nice 2+ save to hide behind. If your opponent does, you'll get a 3+ save, due to your scout move.

Jink says specifically it is only good if you moved in their movement phase. If you go 2nd on your opponents first turn you've not had a movement phase. So you'll be at +5 cover with the darkshroud unless I've missed something. Also, its a scout redeployment not a scout move so nothing much to say there. BRB pgs 38 and 41.

For the list:
From my reading DA Codex pg 101, you need 6 bikers in one squad to buy a speeder. So I think you have some issues there.
I agree on the multi-melta. I doubt you'll want that squad to stand still. I would switch it out to a melta and be more aggressive with your drop POD. Unless you plan on podding down on an objective and not moving the rest of the game.
I like the Black Knights and Darkshroud, but I disagree on Sammy. In my games he's pretty deadly, Ap2 attacks at initiative are ruthless. Sure at range he's meh... Only issue is you may end up killing the opposing unit in melee and if you're relying on hit and run in the opponents assault phase you may be out of luck.
I like the banner as well for this list.
I am concerned on the number of scoring units. 3 man bike squads with out skilled rider aren't that difficult to pick off. Yes you've got T5 and potentially 3+/5+ cover saves and a potential FNP. Just be ready to get them out and hidden to contest/steal an objective late game. Your tactical marines will be slightly harder to kill, again, if you plan on podding on an objective and camping it the whole game you might be ok with 4++ and FNP.

TanKoL wrote:1) Switch Azrael to Sammael (he gives skilled riderz to his unit !)
2) a lot of your weapons are already TL, remove that Librarian, especially if you don't know why he's here
3) MOAR (regular) bikerz !
4) if you want melta in a drop pod, take Veterans with combi-meltas (and remove that PFist, he'll get shot anyway)
5) Speeders are indeed illegal under 6 bikes in a ravenwing squadron

Malik_Raynor wrote:You have way to many bikerz to bring in Azreal. Now this would be a different story if you were bringing in Termies too. IMO, you have plenty of Melta. Honestly, would swap some of that melta out, tacticals, speeders (they are illegal anyways), Banner of Fortitude, and Azreal. I would bring in more RAS bikers to your squads, Banner of Devastation, Sammual, and bring in a Interragator-Chaplin on a bike.

For tatics; I would put Sammaul in with either the command squad or one of Black Knight units and the Interragator-Chaplin with one of the Black Knights. Additonally, I would keep that bubble around the Banner to get those awesome servo rounds and you could possibly table your oppenent! Good Luck man

Thanks for picking up my mistake with the speeders I will rectify that with my next post. The scout move is a redeploy so knights and command squad will have a 5+ cover with the dark shroud and 5+ FNP if I don’t get first turn. Not as good, but better than nothing. Veterans are too expensive really and I wanted another scoring unit, hence the tactical squad. My thinking behind the power fist is that he makes an excellent challenger with a 4++ save and a strength 8 AP 1 weapon but I might take it out if I am struggling for points.
I understand why people might presume that Sammy is better than Azrael for a RW list but I am unconvinced. Most units Sammy joins (command squads, Black Nights) have skilled rider anyway and so that bonus is really superfluous. Azrael is only 15 points more and I think he is far more flexible and effective. Just because Azrael makes terminators troops doesn't mean you have to take them. I'll give Sammy another try, but not in this list. I've found him useless, but I've only used him once to be honest.
I will take out some melta, add some more bikes and see if I can squeeze in the chaplain, as you suggest.
Many thanks folks!

Azreal
5 Black Knights, Grenade Launcher
5 Black Knights, Grenade Launcher
Dark Shroud
5 man Tactical Squad Melta gun, Power fist, drop pod
Ravenwing Command Squad, Banner of fortitude, grenade launcher
Interrogator chaplain, bike, mace of redemption, auspex
6 man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squadron, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta, Melta Bombs, Multi Melta Attack Bike, Landspeeder 2 Heavy Flamers,
6 man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squadron, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta, Melta Bombs, Multi Melta Attack Bike, Landspeeder 2 Heavy Flamers,
1847
So I’ve rejigged the list slightly in response to some of the comments above, I’ve deleted one of the Ravenwing squads and beefed the other two up. This adds flexibility to the list, through combat tactics, meaning I can respond to kill point missions and objective missions. I haven’t managed to increase my model count much adding the sum total of 1 wound to the previous list. However, it is a vast improvement on the previous list what with it being legal and everything.
I’m going continue to champion alternative selections by switching back to the chaplain over the librarian. He’s got a captains stats and a strength 7 mace. I plan to use him to hunt nasty things like monstrous creatures, particularly once their toughness has been reduced!
I had considered taking out the two speeders but decided against this because it is my only concession to facing horde/light infantry lists. If I did take them out I would possibly bump up the tactical squad. In my recent tournament I used a full ten man squad with a flakk missile launcher. I had entertained visions of this missile launcher blasting flyers out the sky and covering himself in glory but he was totally useless! For the time being I will playtest the list above.

Azreal
You aren't using his abiity to add DW as troops so the only benefit I see is LD 10 all around but now you have to take the boat anchor of a tactical squad... 360 for Azrael + tacitcal. Why not Sammael in landspeeder + 3 RW bikes w 2 flamers and an Attack Bike with MM.
5 Black Knights, Grenade Launcher
5 Black Knights, Grenade Launcher
These are your swiss amy knife units and need to be kept alive. I would really like a PFG character to escort them. Your chaplain could have this added. A techmarine with PFG on a bike for the other or the command squad.
Dark Shroud
A little too gimmicky for my taste when you have to get up close... I like it though as an escort for landspeeders. You have two and if you add Sammael 3 that can benefit from it. Otherwise I would sacrifice it for the librarian on a bike.
5 man Tactical Squad Melta gun, Power fist, drop pod
As stated I would lose this but if you keep it, lose the powerfist, add a combi-melta and perhaps a deathwind launcher for hoard control.
Ravenwing Command Squad, Banner of fortitude, grenade launcher
I like this. It gives your entire army a FNP bubble. As stated, I would like a PFG IC to protect this squad.
Interrogator chaplain, bike, mace of redemption, auspex
I would like to have a PFG added. I know it gives enemy 3++ save if in range but truthfully you are doing something wrong if you get in HTH before T4 or later.
6 man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squadron, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta, Melta Bombs, Multi Melta Attack Bike, Landspeeder 2 Heavy Flamers,
6 man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squadron, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta, Melta Bombs, Multi Melta Attack Bike, Landspeeder 2 Heavy Flamers,
I really question your loadouts... to me 2 flamers on the bikes makes more sense and 2 heavy bolters make more sense on the speeders. Speeders are very short lived at template range. 3+ to hit and AV10 equals dead. You have the dark shroud so use it. I have found that heavy bolters work... Early in the game they shoot up infantry and manuever around a flank so that in late game they are rear shooting vehicles and threatening objectives.
I would like a techmarine or librarian on a bike and perhaps that is the right use of the savings from losing the tac squad.

Hope this gives you some food for thought and some ideas. Otherwise it still looks like a fun list. Enjoy.

DAaddict wrote:
Azreal
You aren't using his abiity to add DW as troops so the only benefit I see is LD 10 all around but now you have to take the boat anchor of a tactical squad... 360 for Azrael + tacitcal. Why not Sammael in landspeeder + 3 RW bikes w 2 flamers and an Attack Bike with MM.
5 Black Knights, Grenade Launcher
5 Black Knights, Grenade Launcher
These are your swiss amy knife units and need to be kept alive. I would really like a PFG character to escort them. Your chaplain could have this added. A techmarine with PFG on a bike for the other or the command squad.
Dark Shroud
A little too gimmicky for my taste when you have to get up close... I like it though as an escort for landspeeders. You have two and if you add Sammael 3 that can benefit from it. Otherwise I would sacrifice it for the librarian on a bike.
5 man Tactical Squad Melta gun, Power fist, drop pod
As stated I would lose this but if you keep it, lose the powerfist, add a combi-melta and perhaps a deathwind launcher for hoard control.
Ravenwing Command Squad, Banner of fortitude, grenade launcher
I like this. It gives your entire army a FNP bubble. As stated, I would like a PFG IC to protect this squad.
Interrogator chaplain, bike, mace of redemption, auspex
I would like to have a PFG added. I know it gives enemy 3++ save if in range but truthfully you are doing something wrong if you get in HTH before T4 or later.
6 man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squadron, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta, Melta Bombs, Multi Melta Attack Bike, Landspeeder 2 Heavy Flamers,
6 man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squadron, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta, Melta Bombs, Multi Melta Attack Bike, Landspeeder 2 Heavy Flamers,
I really question your loadouts... to me 2 flamers on the bikes makes more sense and 2 heavy bolters make more sense on the speeders. Speeders are very short lived at template range. 3+ to hit and AV10 equals dead. You have the dark shroud so use it. I have found that heavy bolters work... Early in the game they shoot up infantry and manuever around a flank so that in late game they are rear shooting vehicles and threatening objectives.
I would like a techmarine or librarian on a bike and perhaps that is the right use of the savings from losing the tac squad.

Hope this gives you some food for thought and some ideas. Otherwise it still looks like a fun list. Enjoy.

I have not used Sammy in his land speeder but it’s weapons are a wee bit underwhelming. I think if i were to use him again I would use the speeder. I don’t think that it’s important to think of Azrael as paying extra points to bring DW, both he and Sammy both make RW troops so it is important to consider both on their own merits. Azrael is a badass, he has a master crafted BS5 blinding plasma gun, has 5 strength 6 AP3 attacks, makes the squad he joins stubbornly hard to kill and gets to choose his warlord trait making him highly flexible. Sammy does nothing but shoot off some crappy guns or fail to wound with his stabby wee sword.
Adding more bikes is of course welcome but I don’t think it is better than the tactical squad, particularly when it is buffed by Azrael. One thing that the tactical squad can do, that bikes can’t, is climb ruins! It can also, thanks to the drop pod, get up in my opponents face and throw them off balance, distracting them from my swiss army knives. It takes a considerable amount of firepower to kill this unit and it should also kill stuff when it comes down through shooting and pose a close combat threat in subsequent turns.
I understand your concerns about the shroud and you are right to say that it works really well with speeders however it is also great for protecting scoring, turbo boosting bike units late game by giving them 3+ cover.
The chaplain already has a 4+ save and the command squad should have a better cover save (due to the shroud) than the PFG anyway, so I’m not sold on that.
I’ve had a lot of success with deep striking heavy flamers toasting necrons and firewarriors and such like but I suspect you are right about these two. I will take them out and see what I can fit in instead (perhaps a typhoon and a tactical squad with the changes you've suggested).
Thanks for your suggestions mate, they have indeed given me food for thought.