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We all know that during the Emperor's Great Crusade he came upon planets previously settled by humanity with varying levels of working technology leftover from pre-AoS, but how far can the whole "it was left over from the Dark Age of Technology and bits of it managed to be recreated and used" thing strech?

[Possible spoilers abound]

In Descent of Angels we know that the knightly orders of Caliban have been able to create rudimentary chainswords, bolt pistols, and even power armour (to a point), but as a planet generally not seen as technologically advanced, and with such items being the prized property of the various orders, how could this translate to another planet lost during the Age of Strife?

Lasguns, for example, are far, far less technogically demanding than bolters, but not a single one existed on Caliban prior to the arrival of the Imperium. Hell, basic stub weapons didn't exist until the Imperium's arrival. Where is the line between "it's believable to have rudimentary working replicas of X, Y, and Z where the tech level is actually several thousand years behind them" and "how can there be rudimentary working replicas of X, Y, and Z when the tech level is several thousand years behind them"?

What sorts of things could be reliably leftover and integrated into a backwards (technologically speaking) society? I highly doubt lascannons, tracked vehicles and the likes are going to feature at all, but on a planet that is, say, at tech levels similar to those during the reign of the British Empire, why not basic stub guns, or even crude autoguns, or basic las weapons (seeing as though the lasgun itself is exceedingly durable and hard-wearing, with the cells able to be easily recharged in sunlight)?

Sure, a few things would spring to mind when dropping those weapons into those time periods, but then we look at Caliban and how it's accepted in fluff to have power armoured knights with chainsaws running around the place whilst people are still farming by hand and riding horses or otherwise adhering to the time period, and we reach a point where we need to decide whether we say "fine" or "no, that's stupid".

The trouble is, when do we reach that point?

There is also another factor you could consider. What if for example there were still working concepts of a lasgun on Caliban?

The idea is that the working tech or plans might still be available but they are not utilised on purpose. People might like a certain period of time and oppose progress (mostly the ones in power with something to lose). Remember that in the same book a knightly order tried to fight the Lion from making Caliban a better place. Because lets face it, a bunch of giant deamonic creatures in forests might not be such a great world. Yet they tried to stop him, why? They had something to lose from progress, they held power because of that particular circumstance.

Its like some worlds in 40k. Some choose to remain backwards because of a lifestyle the want to maintain. Attila might be an example of this. Or other feudal worlds in the Imperium, sure they have a Imperial governor. But to the inhabitants he remains some god-like being in a palace in the sky . They have the tech, but some people just make the decision not to introduce it into the larger world. It would just not benefit them.

Back on tech on Caliban. They might just see the lasgun as unheroic for a knightly order. Or quite possibly its not that effective against the massive monsters in the forest. So they might posses lasguns or stub weapons, but they are just not as effective in Caliban's situation. Even in fights between knightly orders there seems to be little point in using them. We could expect the armour of the knights to still be able to stop lasgun rounds. They might not have fought each other that much before wiping out the monsters. So when they did they might not have had the time to produce enough lasguns to make any significant difference or impact (as to be remembered).

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The idea is that the working tech or plans might still be available but they are not utilised on purpose. People might like a certain period of time and oppose progress (mostly the ones in power with something to lose).

Kind of how knights (and the Pope) wished crossbows would only be used against non-christians? I can see that - lasguns outlawed, their designers and users branded enemies of the "natural order of things". After all, if a weapon lets peasants kill knights with ease it's a threat to the whole idea and usefulness of knightly orders.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
There is also another factor you could consider. What if for example there were still working concepts of a lasgun on Caliban?

The idea is that the working tech or plans might still be available but they are not utilised on purpose. People might like a certain period of time and oppose progress (mostly the ones in power with something to lose). Remember that in the same book a knightly order tried to fight the Lion from making Caliban a better place. Because lets face it, a bunch of giant deamonic creatures in forests might not be such a great world. Yet they tried to stop him, why? They had something to lose from progress, they held power because of that particular circumstance.

Its like some worlds in 40k. Some choose to remain backwards because of a lifestyle the want to maintain. Attila might be an example of this. Or other feudal worlds in the Imperium, sure they have a Imperial governor. But to the inhabitants he remains some god-like being in a palace in the sky . They have the tech, but some people just make the decision not to introduce it into the larger world. It would just not benefit them.

Back on tech on Caliban. They might just see the lasgun as unheroic for a knightly order. Or quite possibly its not that effective against the massive monsters in the forest. So they might posses lasguns or stub weapons, but they are just not as effective in Caliban's situation. Even in fights between knightly orders there seems to be little point in using them. We could expect the armour of the knights to still be able to stop lasgun rounds. They might not have fought each other that much before wiping out the monsters. So when they did they might not have had the time to produce enough lasguns to make any significant difference or impact (as to be remembered).

I'm not asking why lasguns aren't used on Caliban, I simply used their lack of even minor mention as an example when asking where the line between believable advanced tech in a relatively low-tech time period would be made.

I'm also not asking why X, Y, or Z isn't used on Caliban; Caliban is just the easiest thing to compare to in fluff.

I honestly don't care about Caliban at all; what I do care about is my original question: where does injecting certain technologies into certain time periods (for example bolt pistols, chainswords, and power armour into a fuedal time period) cross the line from being fine and believable to silly?

I would suggest economic reasons.

Prime example of this is in fact our own world. There are various different forms of effective free energy or even renewable resources. We as a society do not use them. Prime example of this is in the area that I live there are over 20 dams within a one hour drive from my house. Not a single one is pumping out electricity. Would it cost money to retro-engineer them? Indeed. But it is money that could and would be made back by the free energy produced by the dams. Instead we continue to use coal and nuclear generators as our energy sources.

When it comes to weapons of war you never know what things have gotten buried and or destroyed. Look at damascus steel in our own history ... this tech was lost for YEARS until recently it has been rediscovered. It could be something as simple as that.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about...

Economic reasons for what?

What does rediscovering technology have to do with anything when I'm asking about technology they already have?

 Avatar 720 wrote:
We all know that during the Emperor's Great Crusade he came upon planets previously settled by humanity with varying levels of working technology leftover from pre-AoS, but how far can the whole "it was left over from the Dark Age of Technology and bits of it managed to be recreated and used" thing strech?

[Possible spoilers abound]

In Descent of Angels we know that the knightly orders of Caliban have been able to create rudimentary chainswords, bolt pistols, and even power armour (to a point), but as a planet generally not seen as technologically advanced, and with such items being the prized property of the various orders, how could this translate to another planet lost during the Age of Strife?

Point of fact:
They didn't "create" them. They maintained them. There's a huge difference there. Remember that the rotary action pistol that was gifted to one of the characters was considered to be a priceless relic because they could not duplicate them.

Lasguns, for example, are far, far less technogically demanding than bolters, but not a single one existed on Caliban prior to the arrival of the Imperium. Hell, basic stub weapons didn't exist until the Imperium's arrival. Where is the line between "it's believable to have rudimentary working replicas of X, Y, and Z where the tech level is actually several thousand years behind them" and "how can there be rudimentary working replicas of X, Y, and Z when the tech level is several thousand years behind them"?

What sorts of things could be reliably leftover and integrated into a backwards (technologically speaking) society? I highly doubt lascannons, tracked vehicles and the likes are going to feature at all, but on a planet that is, say, at tech levels similar to those during the reign of the British Empire, why not basic stub guns, or even crude autoguns, or basic las weapons (seeing as though the lasgun itself is exceedingly durable and hard-wearing, with the cells able to be easily recharged in sunlight)?

Sure, a few things would spring to mind when dropping those weapons into those time periods, but then we look at Caliban and how it's accepted in fluff to have power armoured knights with chainsaws running around the place whilst people are still farming by hand and riding horses or otherwise adhering to the time period, and we reach a point where we need to decide whether we say "fine" or "no, that's stupid".

The trouble is, when do we reach that point?

With the crux of the matter cleared up, I think it is important to remember that these kinds of planets usually did not have a functioning manufacturing base to work with. They had the basics of maintaining the technology down but even that degraded over time.
The powered armor of the Order(and the other Knights on Caliban) did not function. It was pretty much just used as platemail.

I think that is where the topic is a bit more believable. "We have these relics of a bygone era, we know that they used to be capable of such greater things but now they just kinda have to be put to work".

Okay, 'create' was the wrong word, but the fact that they managed to maintain them shows they had a little knowledge of what went into their workings. Ammunition would have had to have been created, the chainswords would have required fuel, and we know that knights were responsible for cleaning their guns, so they must have had some rudimentary knowledge of how it all went together.

Whilst Caliban obviously lacked the manufactoring base to create more of their weaponry, how would it all translate to a world in the general time period of the Industrial Revolution? Would the spark of industrialism and the brilliant minds required to forward it give them the ability to crudely remake some of the more simple weapons? With superstition being banished would it pave the way for usage of technologies locked away for fear of whatever?

Part of this is researching into what I can and cannot have for various imagined projects, hence the more specific time period suggested. Obviously mass-producing anything from the Dark Age of Technology is going to be a no-no, but would there be allowances for unique weapons, perhaps created by mixing working parts from a store of old weaponry? Or even managing to 'repair' remaining weapons, at least to the point where they can be used to some extent?

'Mechanicum' laid precedent for psychic potential manifesting itself as mechanical genius (even though it was in a roundabout way), so having a leading group of scientists with minor powers of just knowing how stuff works, and being able to come up with ways of making do could work for some things.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
There is also another factor you could consider. What if for example there were still working concepts of a lasgun on Caliban?

The idea is that the working tech or plans might still be available but they are not utilised on purpose. People might like a certain period of time and oppose progress (mostly the ones in power with something to lose). Remember that in the same book a knightly order tried to fight the Lion from making Caliban a better place. Because lets face it, a bunch of giant deamonic creatures in forests might not be such a great world. Yet they tried to stop him, why? They had something to lose from progress, they held power because of that particular circumstance.

Its like some worlds in 40k. Some choose to remain backwards because of a lifestyle the want to maintain. Attila might be an example of this. Or other feudal worlds in the Imperium, sure they have a Imperial governor. But to the inhabitants he remains some god-like being in a palace in the sky . They have the tech, but some people just make the decision not to introduce it into the larger world. It would just not benefit them.

Back on tech on Caliban. They might just see the lasgun as unheroic for a knightly order. Or quite possibly its not that effective against the massive monsters in the forest. So they might posses lasguns or stub weapons, but they are just not as effective in Caliban's situation. Even in fights between knightly orders there seems to be little point in using them. We could expect the armour of the knights to still be able to stop lasgun rounds. They might not have fought each other that much before wiping out the monsters. So when they did they might not have had the time to produce enough lasguns to make any significant difference or impact (as to be remembered).

I'm not asking why lasguns aren't used on Caliban, I simply used their lack of even minor mention as an example when asking where the line between believable advanced tech in a relatively low-tech time period would be made.

I'm also not asking why X, Y, or Z isn't used on Caliban; Caliban is just the easiest thing to compare to in fluff.

I honestly don't care about Caliban at all; what I do care about is my original question: where does injecting certain technologies into certain time periods (for example bolt pistols, chainswords, and power armour into a fuedal time period) cross the line from being fine and believable to silly?

Ah but what I meant by this post is that absence of it doenst mean it doesnt exist. I just listed a few reasons why it might not be in use. Well you could put it a different way I guess, in a time of regressed tech (which it basicly is) how much advanced tech is left? Putting it this way makes some things far more acceptable. Now we can define it by the comparison with STC's. The Imperium is lower-tech then the previous civilization, but still maintains advanced weaponry due to STC blueprints. The same principle could be applied on smaller scale to the low-tech planets in the Age of Strife. Some of the weapon concepts or workings are lost, yet others were preserved. Its like the fall of the Roman Empire, most lost the ability to read and write, yet the church kept it preserved. This might be seen as a way that a relativly high standard of civilization might be preserved, but only on a really small scale, which makes it seems weird in its predominantly 'uncivilized' surroundings. The same could be said for tech levels, they just fell from the standard. But some amount might have been preserved on that level and could still be produced (STC's included really simple plans for certain things), yet they have to little knowledge outside the workings to reverse engineer it. Kind of like the Mechanicus on some more advanced tech, they know how to produce it, but cant take out some of the flaws in the manufacturing technique.

That still doesn't address the question in any sort of form.

Whilst Caliban obviously lacked the manufactoring base to create more of their weaponry, how would it all translate to a world in the general time period of the Industrial Revolution? Would the spark of industrialism and the brilliant minds required to forward it give them the ability to crudely remake some of the more simple weapons? With superstition being banished would it pave the way for usage of technologies locked away for fear of whatever?

The Industrial Revolution had, at its time, fairly free movement between countries, and ideas from one area could be accessed by people in another, thus driving innovation.

This does not exist in M31, or even in M41. Also, the Age of Reason had widely dispelled the myths of superstition and magic. In M31, this gak was demonstrably proven to be true. There really were monsters in the dark forests that would eat your head!

Once they lost the ability to manufacture las-weaponry, or power armor, it's just a slide down the hill back to barbarism. Once you can no longer build the PA, you can no longer build the replacement parts. Once you can no longer build the replacement parts, you can no longer maintain functionality. Once you can no longer maintain functionality, the device loses purpose. Once its lost purpose, it has lost a reason to exist.

The idea that any of that did not exist is blatantly untrue. Whilst it might be correct for the worlds under the rule of the Imperium at that time, we know for a fact that worlds lost during the Age of Strife developed their own societies, free of influence from the Imperium.

Were it true for all worlds then compliance would have been a walk through the park, but they came up against cultures twisted by thousands of years without contact with other humans, and a good number of these cultures had taken very different paths to things.

The idea that losing the ability to manufacture things = they will never exist again is also unproven. It is not outside the bounds of reason to assume that worlds had small covens or groups dedicated to preserving the secrets of the technology, or even, as I suggested, psyker mutations that allowed them minor technological ability.

Also, being unable to build X does not mean you cannot build replacement parts. It will be harder, true, but for things like stubguns it is laughable to assume that workarounds could not possibly have been discovered.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
That still doesn't address the question in any sort of form.

Allright a straight answer drawn from my previous posts would be: everything is believable. Why? Because some part of tech could have been preserved or blueprints saved. This could be from any part of life, from planes to industrial equipment. Even possibly in a medieval society. The blueprints tell you how to build it and maintain it. Those are instructions you can follow, but its workings are so complicated for its time that they are only able to work off the manual and nothing else (no reverse engineering). Believable? Maybe, but is it such a stretch in a universe with deamons and psykers? I say it is, just because it would fit in the larger picture of 40k.

Ever read the Wheel of Time series? In that book series they have relics from an era that was considered so much more advanced they refer to it as the Age of Legends. They are able to use some of these relics which give them huge advantages in very specific areas. However, they always caution that if record of how a relic is to be used and what it is used for haven't been preserved (which is extremely rare for such records to have survived) its basically luck or instinct when they figure out how to use these relics. Indeed, its mentioned many times that the relics probably aren't being used in the way they were intended for. This makes use of these relics very dangerous and unpredictable. Even study of the relics has been disallowed because of the deaths and injuries resulting from it. They have many relics that just sit there because they couldn't figure out how to make them do anything.

I assume that tech left over from the Age of Technology could be treated in the same way.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
That still doesn't address the question in any sort of form.

The question is unanswerable, since it is completely subjective. Some people might draw the line at feudal societies having full-on fusion powered walking battlemechs(Knight Worlds, something that thankfully seems to be going the way of the dodo following Mechanicum), others might find it patently ludicrous for Boer War-era British to have laser guns, others still might find the entire concept untenable from start to finish.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
We all know that during the Emperor's Great Crusade he came upon planets previously settled by humanity with varying levels of working technology leftover from pre-AoS, but how far can the whole "it was left over from the Dark Age of Technology and bits of it managed to be recreated and used" thing strech?

[Possible spoilers abound]

In Descent of Angels we know that the knightly orders of Caliban have been able to create rudimentary chainswords, bolt pistols, and even power armour (to a point), but as a planet generally not seen as technologically advanced, and with such items being the prized property of the various orders, how could this translate to another planet lost during the Age of Strife?

Lasguns, for example, are far, far less technogically demanding than bolters, but not a single one existed on Caliban prior to the arrival of the Imperium. Hell, basic stub weapons didn't exist until the Imperium's arrival. Where is the line between "it's believable to have rudimentary working replicas of X, Y, and Z where the tech level is actually several thousand years behind them" and "how can there be rudimentary working replicas of X, Y, and Z when the tech level is several thousand years behind them"?

What sorts of things could be reliably leftover and integrated into a backwards (technologically speaking) society? I highly doubt lascannons, tracked vehicles and the likes are going to feature at all, but on a planet that is, say, at tech levels similar to those during the reign of the British Empire, why not basic stub guns, or even crude autoguns, or basic las weapons (seeing as though the lasgun itself is exceedingly durable and hard-wearing, with the cells able to be easily recharged in sunlight)?

Sure, a few things would spring to mind when dropping those weapons into those time periods, but then we look at Caliban and how it's accepted in fluff to have power armoured knights with chainsaws running around the place whilst people are still farming by hand and riding horses or otherwise adhering to the time period, and we reach a point where we need to decide whether we say "fine" or "no, that's stupid".

The trouble is, when do we reach that point?

During the first expansion of man across the galaxy, knowledge of production for all things were transfered into automated production systems (if you wanted a bolter, it told you what was needed to make it and how to make it) over generations humanity became more relient on this system and lost the actual knowledge of how to build things (just thing about how many people use a computer and how few actually know how to create on). Once the planets became isolated the maintance of these production systems steadily got worse so either they completely broke or only certain blueprints were retained.

Best guess is that the holds on Caliban had the STC blueprints for chainswords and boltpistols but not lasguns.

As to how much technology human worlds can have, during the Great Crusade there were worlds ruled by computers and worlds where genescience was so advanced that the human population could be altered to suit specific activities.

Also remember that in some fluff STC's were not just blueprints. A complete STC with all its parts was essentially an automated factory for settlers. Plop it down and tell it to build tractors and water condensers and pre-fab buildings and such. If all you have left is some computer parts, you just have blueprints. If you have some parts of a working STC, maybe you can make a few select things but not much else, and you're afraid/unable to fix it because you have no idea how it works. So it's mine ore, feed it to ancient machine, run ancient hydroelectric generator, push buttons, out come bolter parts. And the whole process is very mystical and only done in limited quantities when sufficient materials are gathered and the higher-ups decide there is really a need to risk breaking their relic.

So there's one explanation.

Regarding one of the original questions, "What sorts of things could be reliably leftover and integrated into a backwards (technologically speaking) society?"

The answer is all sorts of things.

Let's take an iPhone. For "maintenance" all it needs is power. Without it, it will be dead in a day or so. What if it was solar charged? As long as you can continue providing power it is easily used by those who have absolutely no idea how it was built and certainly no ability to make another like it. A single iPhone could be handed to someone 500 years ago, with a little training, and continue to be used pretty much indefinitely. However, the moment it's dropped or otherwise broken then it becomes useless.

In the above paragraph, replace "iPhone" with "Lasgun" or even "Bolter". What maintenance does a lasgun really need? It needs recharging certainly, but beyond that you need to keep the outside of it clean which is simple enough to teach someone to do. Now, let's imagine we leave 100 of these with a military group and take away the ability to source replacement parts. That group would certainly know how to maintain them and would probably pass those maintenance tasks down to whoever inherits it. This doesn't mean that they can replace that super special piece of highly polished glass which would take perhaps hundreds of years of experimentation and study to even come close to replicating it. Even then they may not be able to replicate it because the materials used are simply not found on the planet in question. No, it would simply mean that they can clean it, provide power and hopefully point it in the right direction.

Going further, the only way to even figure out what needs replacing would be to experiment with specimens by taking them apart to see how they function. Even then you will run into issues. We certainly have things today whose operation can't be gleaned by simple physical inspection, such as a computer. Further we have things that are destroyed once the outer shell is removed (hard drives, numerous kids toys) - ie: you can't take the shell off and put in on again and expect it to work. I'm sure a lasgun has similar parts. Ones that simply can't be reproduced without creating a specific manufacturing industry.

A boltgun isn't that dissimilar. Rather than power, it needs bullets. Producing bullets is not the same thing as producing the gun itself; those require different disciplines and technical knowledge. Further, if I hand you 100 boltguns and 1,000,000 rounds of bullets I'm sure you would be able to correctly reverse engineer the bullets before running out of specimens. You could even recreate those rounds using different materials that are similar to, but not exact based on local availability. A boltgun? maybe. More to the point, if you only have 100 of them the leadership would likely completely forbid destroying an unknown number of them before you figure it out.

So, "when do we reach that point?" Specifically the point where finding a functional item on a backwards planet is "stupid?" The answer is when the item in question has certain parts that both routinely wear out during normal use AND require a specialized manufacturing system to replace. For example, a television. Currently produced TV's have about a 5 to 10 year life. To replace or repair them requires the ability to manufacturer tiny LED (for one type) lights. LEDs, although easily produced today due to manufacturing capabilities in certain areas, are absolutely beyond most current 3rd world countries capabilities and will be for the forseeable future. Why? The have an entire manufacturing base that needs to be developed; and that's assuming they take the same development path as the rest of the world which is doubtful.

However, if that TV had never been turned on and was kept in pristine condition then it's likely it would still be usable after some large period of time...

--------

Now, certain other examples could be found, but in altered states. For example a vehicle. After some period of time it's likely the engine would simply stop working. However, its conceivable that a replacement "engine" might be found. For example if it previously worked off of nuclear and someone figured out how to harness steam power, then the engine might be swapped out. It'll be big and ugly, but as long as it puts out enough power then you'll still be able to drive. Targetting systems might no longer function due to wear/tear; however this might mean replacing that lascannon with a bolter or even something that slings arrows.

Avatar 720 wrote:but the fact that they managed to maintain them shows they had a little knowledge of what went into their workings.

No, actually it doesn't. Maintenance and Repair are two different things. Maintenance means keeping it functioning, repair means fixing it when it's broke. Even then Repair has two different meanings. One is simply replacing the broken part with a spare. Your local computer store technician could "repair" your computer by replacing a hard drive. But tell them that a replacement part is unavailable and that they have to actually Fix the broken part and you'll have an exercise in frustration as that would be way beyond their skill. Maintenance might simply mean making sure the inside of the computer is free of built up dust and take no more knowledge than what's required to open the case and blow out the particles.

Avatar 720 wrote:Part of this is researching into what I can and cannot have for various imagined projects...but would there be allowances for unique weapons, perhaps created by mixing working parts from a store of old weaponry?

Absolutely. Not just working parts from old weaponry, but even crude replacements for existing parts. Imagine replacing the teeth of a chain sword with shark teeth. Sure, they are more brittle but perhaps that's in abundance in your setting whereas Adamantium or whatever they are made of isn't available. Maybe the boltgun launches arrows instead of mass reactive shells because that's what their technical capability allowed while tradition dictated the continued use of the weapon.

This happened to some DAoT planets:

Stockpiles of ancient weapons were breached, and soon
all of the glorious wonders of the Dark Age of Technology
were unleashed upon the already tortured world. Test beds
for the most destructive powers Mankind had harnessed
devastated the planet. Waves of engineered plagues swept
the surface of the planet, decimating the biospheres and
scouring the planet. Dreaded atomics were detonated in
every configuration known to the ancient weaponsmiths,
from the refined airbursts that destroyed the technology
of entire regions to the brutal efficiency of megaton fusion
bombs capable of levelling entire city-states.

The furious
power unleashed cracked the very mantle of the planet, the
crustal plates collapsing into growing lakes of blood red fire
that swallowed cities whole. Battle raged overhead, as well, as
each faction attempted to wrest control of the planet’s moons
from their rivals. A particularly savage spread of anti-matter
warheads shattered all of the moons in one massive, excessive
strike, leaving nothing but a belt of charred and blasted rock
orbiting a planet howling for its own blood.

Tech disappeared cause it all got blown to hell.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
The idea that any of that did not exist is blatantly untrue. Whilst it might be correct for the worlds under the rule of the Imperium at that time, we know for a fact that worlds lost during the Age of Strife developed their own societies, free of influence from the Imperium.

Were it true for all worlds then compliance would have been a walk through the park, but they came up against cultures twisted by thousands of years without contact with other humans, and a good number of these cultures had taken very different paths to things.

The idea that losing the ability to manufacture things = they will never exist again is also unproven. It is not outside the bounds of reason to assume that worlds had small covens or groups dedicated to preserving the secrets of the technology, or even, as I suggested, psyker mutations that allowed them minor technological ability.

Also, being unable to build X does not mean you cannot build replacement parts. It will be harder, true, but for things like stubguns it is laughable to assume that workarounds could not possibly have been discovered.

It might not be outside the realm of possibility for such things as tech-covens to exist, but we are provided no evidence that, on Caliban, they *did* exist. On other worlds? Sure. Those other worlds might have also had something along the lines of the AdMech maintaining technological archives, which Caliban did not. There are worlds in the Imperium, in M41, who will burn you at the stake for possessing an ear-piece commo.

Psyker mutations? On a planet as medieval as Caliban, I'm pretty sure they burned those people as witches.

Stubguns? The Chinese had gunpowder for *centuries* before someone (non-Chinese) came along and weaponized it. Just because you can make gunpowder doesn't mean you'll be cranking out bolters next week. Sometimes, the innovation simply doesn't come.

The Tech level could be anything. A planet could have either devolved back to the stone age or remained at or near what they were during the DAoT.


For a planet that has devolved, what they do have is dependent on whatever wasn't lost. Caliban didn't have las weaponry because they didn't have the plans. Or they may not have had the necessary materials. Las weaponry would require verious rare earth metals which may not have been present on Caliban(or not known to the inhabitants)

Bolt weaponry, while complex, wouldn't require much in the way of special materials. And would be more effective than basic las technology anyway. When you are fighting chaos spawned monsters its probably more effective to blow chunks out of them than it is to give them energy burns.

The STC system allows for a planet to have wierd gaps in technology. A planet may have an advanced computer system, but they are reliant on fossil fuels and crude fission generators for their power.

Similarly, another world could have anti-grav technology, along with advanced Fusion power, but their weaponry is limited to various melee weapons and crossbows(albeit mechanical ones with a high rate of fire and automatic ammo feeds) Such a world could be one where they don't have the capacity to make direct energy weapons and the planet just doesn't have gunpowder for firearms.

 Psienesis wrote:

Psyker mutations? On a planet as medieval as Caliban, I'm pretty sure they burned those people as witches.

Good thing for them that they did so. If they didn't they'd either be enslaved by psyker overlords or get eaten by daemons who used the psyker to invade the planet.