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Greetings All,

A little back story for myself, I was interested in 40k since I was little, but the price tag for Aussies was astoundingly high and it was a resounding no from the parents back then. Then I realised, hey I'm almost 30 now and need a hobby besides work and PC Games. So I popped into GW and picked up the SM + Ork starter kit, as well as a lot of paints and supplies. I kept myself busy painting them for the next few months, purchased the new Dark Vengence Ltd Ed kit ready as my next project.

I also went into GW for the intro game, and to the owners surprise, I lost. The intro game which apparently everyone wins, I lost! He was quite embarrassed, but never-the-less I wasn't deterred and just concentrated on painting for now. One of my mates wanted a few games with my little Ork force from the starter kit. It was a 350 point game or so, I think. But I keep losing, time and time again to his Dark Angels. By the time I'm almost within CC range, I start having to undertake leadership tests and it's just an overall slaughter for my Boyz. I tried to counter that by keeping my Warboss with the Boyz and Nobz, but then he flanks and plows into me with a rocket launcher and flamer, as well as assault troops. Rather disheartening to try and play thus far.

Out of frustration I'm wondering, what faction is actually all rounded. Because I find the Orks can't do anything until they get within CC range, and unless I expand my current Ork to include a Trukk so that they can get into combat safely and quickly, I don't see how it will work. I'm just not sold on Orks, put it that way. I painted my SM's in Blood Angels and whilst I know they are quite well rounded from what I've read, I'm not sold on being in the majority of people who play SM 40k.

Perhaps I'm shooting myself in the foot, but is that why SM is the most played - because they are the most well rounded? I was looking at CSM or Dark Eldar because of the evil back stories, CSM in particular because of the aesthetics as well. However I'm told DE aren't the greatest, but CSM is relatively good, depending on what God you roll at the beginning? (Need clarification on that). I was also interested in Tyranids, but from the research I've done, they don't do so well in 6th Ed unless you really know them in depth and forsake all additions but flying within points.

Could anyone put forth their suggestion?

Many thanks,

Banicks

Banicks wrote:
Greetings All,

A little back story for myself, I was interested in 40k since I was little, but the price tag for Aussies was astoundingly high and it was a resounding no from the parents back then. Then I realised, hey I'm almost 30 now and need a hobby besides work and PC Games. So I popped into GW and picked up the SM + Ork starter kit, as well as a lot of paints and supplies. I kept myself busy painting them for the next few months, purchased the new Dark Vengence Ltd Ed kit ready as my next project.

I also went into GW for the intro game, and to the owners surprise, I lost. The intro game which apparently everyone wins, I lost! He was quite embarrassed, but never-the-less I wasn't deterred and just concentrated on painting for now. One of my mates wanted a few games with my little Ork force from the starter kit. It was a 350 point game or so, I think. But I keep losing, time and time again to his Dark Angels. By the time I'm almost within CC range, I start having to undertake leadership tests and it's just an overall slaughter for my Boyz. I tried to counter that by keeping my Warboss with the Boyz and Nobz, but then he flanks and plows into me with a rocket launcher and flamer, as well as assault troops. Rather disheartening to try and play thus far.

Out of frustration I'm wondering, what faction is actually all rounded. Because I find the Orks can't do anything until they get within CC range, and unless I expand my current Ork to include a Trukk so that they can get into combat safely and quickly, I don't see how it will work. I'm just not sold on Orks, put it that way. I painted my SM's in Blood Angels and whilst I know they are quite well rounded from what I've read, I'm not sold on being in the majority of people who play SM 40k.

Perhaps I'm shooting myself in the foot, but is that why SM is the most played - because they are the most well rounded? I was looking at CSM or Dark Eldar because of the evil back stories, CSM in particular because of the aesthetics as well. However I'm told DE aren't the greatest, but CSM is relatively good, depending on what God you roll at the beginning? (Need clarification on that). I was also interested in Tyranids, but from the research I've done, they don't do so well in 6th Ed unless you really know them in depth and forsake all additions but flying within points.

Could anyone put forth their suggestion?

Many thanks,

Banicks

Sadly, Orks don't have the most competative codex around. They can be workable, but making a competative Ork list really gives you limited options.

As for the prevalence of SM, it's a multifaceted thing; the codex is balanced with a multitude of viable strategies, the models are easy to assemble and paint, and GW spends heavy money on advertising them. You may very have more luck with SM; theyre a versatile force that can run several different strategies depending on how you field them.

C:SM is pretty well rounded because the codex is quite good, mostly because it gives you a lot of choices for your army. Im not sure about DE so anyone else should fill you in. CSM are also quite good atm because of the new codex, depending on what you pick as main mark and troops. The god you roll at the beginning is probably just a reference to one of the 4 marks you can pick. Every mark has certain advantages and is linked to one of the 4 gods, like +1 inv save for one mark. The tyranid codex is getting quite old, so it might be a bit rougher to play than marines.

Technically, most forces are viable if you play the right list, but, if you are looking for an all around solid army, SM seems to be the most versatile option. IG are also pretty solid, and can be played a few different ways, and once you get the hang of them can be positively deadly. They were my first army, and I had good experiences with them.

Spess Mahreens are smack dab middle of the road. I think most people start with them because they just have so many awesome models. It helps that GW pushes them a lot. Orks are hilarious but as mentioned they aren't the most competitive right now. Nids also have a lot of shenanigans, but the few people I've seen play them are -really- good. They just don't seem like a very forgiving army: even one mistake can mess you up big time.

DEldar are one of the forces I originally considered starting. The whole BDSM Pirate vibe is right down my alley, but when folks say their ships are made of paper mache they're kind of not joking. From what I have seen its an army that should be wielded more like a rapier than a great sword. Speed is the name of the game.

Chaos Spess Mahreens are different enough from their loyalist brothers that the play styles vary. Best part is that you don't have to have just one god represented in your army...you can play with whatever the heck you want.

As Vortrey mentions most forces are viable if you play them well. And I think that's really kind of awesome. After all, your primary concern should be in painting and modeling...you'll be spending a whole heck of a lot more time doing that than actually painting. So the general aesthetic of your army should be your primary concern.

Orks don't do very well in small points games because you're (points wise) limited in the number of boyz you can have in your mobs. It's been awhile since I've played Orks, but I'm fairly certain that morale tests aren't an issue if you're bringing big ole mobs of green.

Waves of shoota boyz can bring the pain (well, to anything they can hurt) just through sheer volume of fire.

DE, CSM, and Tyranids are all playable. I won't go into tourney worthy because I don't play in tournaments.

Did someone TELL you that Dark Eldar are aesthetically unpleasing?

IMHO they are some of the most beautiful models that GW has done outside of DV: chaos

that being said however they're supposed to be more on the advanced list of armies to play with...I haven't gotten a game in with my DE yet..still in the painting phase...if you want to go evil and have an all rounder then go with Chaos and maybe some Daemon support! since you already have the DV starter that should make it all the easier

CSM are one of the most versatile armies around, IMO. You can have super tough troops in the form of plague marines, or hordes of guys if you go with cultists, and there's a few different ways to build them. Personally I like to do a mix of marks in my armies, but some times I'll do a single god list.

I'm not to sure about DE, but a it seems like you're more in the market for something with good survivabilty and DE definately don't fit into that category.

Banicks wrote:

I also went into GW for the intro game, and to the owners surprise, I lost. The intro game which apparently everyone wins, I lost! He was quite embarrassed, but never-the-less I wasn't deterred and just concentrated on painting for now. One of my mates wanted a few games with my little Ork force from the starter kit. It was a 350 point game or so, I think. But I keep losing, time and time again to his Dark Angels. By the time I'm almost within CC range, I start having to undertake leadership tests and it's just an overall slaughter for my Boyz. I tried to counter that by keeping my Warboss with the Boyz and Nobz, but then he flanks and plows into me with a rocket launcher and flamer, as well as assault troops. Rather disheartening to try and play thus far.

Out of frustration I'm wondering, what faction is actually all rounded. Because I find the Orks can't do anything until they get within CC range, and unless I expand my current Ork to include a Trukk so that they can get into combat safely and quickly, I don't see how it will work. I'm just not sold on Orks, put it that way. I painted my SM's in Blood Angels and whilst I know they are quite well rounded from what I've read, I'm not sold on being in the majority of people who play SM 40k.

Perhaps I'm shooting myself in the foot, but is that why SM is the most played - because they are the most well rounded? I was looking at CSM or Dark Eldar because of the evil back stories, CSM in particular because of the aesthetics as well. However I'm told DE aren't the greatest, but CSM is relatively good, depending on what God you roll at the beginning? (Need clarification on that). I was also interested in Tyranids, but from the research I've done, they don't do so well in 6th Ed unless you really know them in depth and forsake all additions but flying within points.

The game doesn't balance well at very low and very high points values. At 350pts, you probably don't have enough seperate and different units on the table to employ any tactics aside from "my footslogging melee troops charge at his units in a straight line until they die"

This game is about combined arms. feth yes you need a trukk to get your boyz there in one piece. Or some stormboyz to quickly tie up the enermy in melee and buy time for your sloggas. Or Grots to run ahead of them and screen them from enermy fire - just something that changes the game from simply charging straight at the opponent.

Put simply, your trying to fight paper with rock. You don't necessarily need scissors to win this one, just *something* to help give your rock an edge. Do some counts as using excess models or coins or something as possible other units and see how the game changes. And for the love of god don't just try to charge boyz into flamers - thats just not gonna work mate

Taking in what everyone has said, I will look towards CSM. I'm not sold on my Orks, and want greater survivability without going SM. I didn't mean DE don't look aesthetically pleasing, I meant that for a novice like myself they would not survive very well in battle.

I think it will be a good move since the CSM codex is new and the general consensus is they perform quite well.

I will be creating a new thread so that experienced CSM players will be able to assist me in organising a well rounded army. If you would like to assist me in that, please do http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/517906.page#5456927

Many thanks everyone,

Banicks

Killa Kans - beautiful models - might well provide hilarity value for you in these games. They can shrug off small arms fire and then mash marines up in melee.

But the real thing to do is decide a few things.

1) What do you want to do - are you a painter or a gamer? By this I mean, if your main interest is in painting, you'll have a very different set of criteria in an army than if you are a gamer. Most people are not entirely one or the other, but lean towards one of the extremes.

2) What are you wanting in a force? Orks are pretty hordey, have loads of crazy technology that tends to explode, and rely upon the melee phase (while sadly not being all that good in melee). Space Marines are, broadly speaking, a shooty army that has the capability to crack heads in melee. They are characterised by high quality infantry and plentiful vehicles. You can play both armies differently - Orks can do shooting, but it is a touch odd and doesn't look like Space Marine shooting - but each army has, broadly speaking, a gameplay 'style' that they work best in. Nobody wins by making Tau a melee army.

3) You want to enjoy the way that your army looks - this is a tactile and visual hobby based upon wee plastic men, after all. Make sure that you are loving the look of your guys, and you'll enjoy the game more.

4) Look at your armies, and at other armies, and decide if what you are looking for matches one well. Orks are great fun, but you'll need to expand rapidly to get more stuff. Space Marines will require the acquisition of vehicles, I'd say. If you want to go for, say, Eldar - then try to work out a 1k list with the codex, and start buying towards it.

Something that may be good is to go and watch some games in GW. See other people's armies, see how they play. Reading the Battle Reports section here on DakkaDakka will help as well.

Good luck!

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Killa Kans - beautiful models - might well provide hilarity value for you in these games. They can shrug off small arms fire and then mash marines up in melee.

But the real thing to do is decide a few things.

1) What do you want to do - are you a painter or a gamer? By this I mean, if your main interest is in painting, you'll have a very different set of criteria in an army than if you are a gamer. Most people are not entirely one or the other, but lean towards one of the extremes.

2) What are you wanting in a force? Orks are pretty hordey, have loads of crazy technology that tends to explode, and rely upon the melee phase (while sadly not being all that good in melee). Space Marines are, broadly speaking, a shooty army that has the capability to crack heads in melee. They are characterised by high quality infantry and plentiful vehicles. You can play both armies differently - Orks can do shooting, but it is a touch odd and doesn't look like Space Marine shooting - but each army has, broadly speaking, a gameplay 'style' that they work best in. Nobody wins by making Tau a melee army.

3) You want to enjoy the way that your army looks - this is a tactile and visual hobby based upon wee plastic men, after all. Make sure that you are loving the look of your guys, and you'll enjoy the game more.

4) Look at your armies, and at other armies, and decide if what you are looking for matches one well. Orks are great fun, but you'll need to expand rapidly to get more stuff. Space Marines will require the acquisition of vehicles, I'd say. If you want to go for, say, Eldar - then try to work out a 1k list with the codex, and start buying towards it.

Something that may be good is to go and watch some games in GW. See other people's armies, see how they play. Reading the Battle Reports section here on DakkaDakka will help as well.

Good luck!

Thank you for your detailed reply!

1. I like to paint as the fall back where my orks don't perform so well. Part of the issue I have is that playing Orks I spend most of my rolls trying to get into position to combat, but always just end up rolling more often for armour saves or the eventual leadership tests. Partially the problem is I don't mind losing if they looked great, and for a first army I think my Orks came up relatively well. But their playstyle isn't me. If I obtained an army capable of surviving longer and being more robust and all rounded, I'm quite certain that I would enjoy playing as much as painting.

With that said, I did have a period of 2 months where I did no painting. It comes and goes in waves, I'll want to paint the entire army one day, then 2 miniatures later I'll put it away for weeks on end. When I play it reinstills the desire to paint and improve my skills and understanding of the game. But even from my limited understanding, I know Orks aren't want I want to proceed with and as a result of that I don't want to invest the funds into making them viable.

2. I'd like an all-rounded force. I like the idea of SMs in that they have good saves, good shooting and relatively good CC depending on units. But like I said, I don't like that everyone plays them. I've always preferred the darkness of humanity, and CSM is a storyline which I can easily get into and justify being a "traitor". So ultimately I want SMs, without being SMs, and that's where I looked at CSMs with basically equal capabilities but just that 18+ factor I like of evilness

3. I will definitely with CSMs. The awe I have for Plague Marines and the majority of CSM chapter colours is amazing. My concern is that I won't be capable of matching that quality and in-turn, won't enjoy them as much. But I plan to get a few lessons from my local(ish) GW store. The owner has won a few Golden Daemons and said he would be more than happy to run me through basics to advanced.

Additionally, I have the GW Painting Guide which helped immensely along with the new paints they have. My mate who has played for over a decade was amazed at my Orks, thinking I did 15+ layers, where I only did the undercoat, base, wash and layer. Whether he was being kind I'm not sure, perhaps I should take some photos, place them in a thread, and let the community ultimately decide.

4. Sounds like a good plan. I'll start with the CSM codex, read into it, and with the help of anyones suggestion in this thread, and/or GW fellas (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/517906.page) I will then go from there.

No problem, and good luck with the Chaos!

Good luck, heretic scum!

You sound like a similar player to what I am as I play Orks,really enjoy painting them yet I dont really like playing with a massive "horde" of Orks.Prefering to go more elite and fast with them.So yeah I loose alot,heh.

Although what ive found that does work when fielding armies over say 1k points is using allies.In my case I run a small contingent of Imperial Gaurd and for purposes of modeling Kromlech makes some great IG ork models.Im currently using some cadians I painted in an "off imperial" patern as fill ins while I collect some of the Kromlech stuff.

Also there are several choices for Ork allies actually CSM are one of them.And having allies of convenience isint really that restrictive to actual play from what ive found.

I just love ploppin down some truck boys,a battle wagon full,some nob bikers all to rush the enemy while my friends and their little buddy "Russ" cover me taking out all that pesky AV12+ stuff as well as a few pie plates here and there

If you want a massively flexible army , Go with Imperial Guard , if you want CC there are ways to do it ( 5 inf squads combine with power fist on all sgts led my a lord commissar with a fist , or 10 Ogryn led by Commisar Yarrick charging next to Straken > )

Generally our troops arnt the best but we will kick your ass with the amount of flexible firepower we have