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Greetings All,

After much assistance in deciding which faction I should progress with, I have decided to go with CSM.

The DV starter kit I have contains:

1 Chaos Lord - Kranon the Relentless
6 Chosen - I believe one is a Chosen Champion
1 Hellbrute
20 Chaos Cultists

One of the models in particular I've looked at that is apparently good is the Heldrake, and also Abaddon as my HQ in place of Kranon. I've been told he is an extremely worthy HQ unit but any suggestions are welcomed.

With that in mind, what else should I be looking at obtaining to complete an average sized army for battle (aiming for 2k say). Let's say that cost isn't an issue, I want to field an Army that would make the other fella go "Oh Myyyyy"

Many thanks ,

Banicks

My advice is never to go straight out with the GW kits, they really do make some terrible lists, firstly, I'd say to convert the DA you gt into some chaos marines of some sort but save the hellbrute, they're really nasty , but not suited for the games you'll be playing at the moment, perhaps after you've struck 1500.

abbadon is a great (yet very pricy) choice who is best kept with a squad of termies which again i'd recomend for later.

My advice is to get some proper troops, regular chaos marines or a chosen deity marine would suit nicely.

Do you have any chosen god in mind or are you going to play undivided?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, and welcome to dakka by the way

 blood guard26 wrote:
My advice is never to go straight out with the GW kits, they really do make some terrible lists, firstly, I'd say to convert the DA you gt into some chaos marines of some sort but save the hellbrute, they're really nasty , but not suited for the games you'll be playing at the moment, perhaps after you've struck 1500.

abbadon is a great (yet very pricy) choice who is best kept with a squad of termies which again i'd recomend for later.

My advice is to get some proper troops, regular chaos marines or a chosen deity marine would suit nicely.

Do you have any chosen god in mind or are you going to play undivided?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, and welcome to dakka by the way

Thank you for the welcome.

I haven't delved that much into it as of yet, I was going to pop into GW tomorrow and pick up the new CSM codex to have a read on Gods and so forth. Would you recommend any particular God outright?

When you say the Hellbrute is nasty, is that nasty as in very powerful or useless? Additionally, when I looked up the CSM Terminators, they are under HQ units. I presume the later games would include 2 HQ units and that would be where Abaddon is most secure.

However, if he was the solo HQ, is he still viable or would another HQ be preferable.

It is easier to have a mixture of Gods to start with or with a few units of undivided. Remember that marks are upgrades which you don't have to have. some units do better with one mark while another unit does better with another. For example, oblitorators are good with nurgle. characters are good with tzeentch for an improved invulnerable. Chosen with power weapons are good with khorne or slaanesh.

If you want a theme then Tzeentch is probably the worst to go solo with when everyone has that mark, but is perfect for HQs. Khorne is fun if you can rush everyone up in rhinos and land raiders. Slaanesh makes a nice hammer and anvil with a good gunline and fast attack possibilities. Nurgle is a tough army to kill so is good for objectives while pumping out shots.

My army is mostly undivided with a few marked characters.

Also what kind of "oh myy" do you want. An "oh my that army is prettty" or an "oh my god how do i deal with this" army?

which ever god you go with, you will want some power armour guys. If you like slaanesh then use noise marines. If you like nurgle use some plague marines. However, khorne marked marines can be better than khorne bezerkers for the price, undivided marines are better than thousand sons for the price. The cutists are just bullet sheilds and objective holders.

TheChaosGuy wrote:
It is easier to have a mixture of Gods to start with or with a few units of undivided. Remember that marks are upgrades which you don't have to have. If you want a theme then Tzeentch is probably the worst to go solo with when everyone has that mark, but is perfect for HQs. Khorne is fun if you can rush everyone up in rhinos and land raiders. Slaanesh makes a nice hammer and anvil with a good gunline and fast attack possibilities. Nurgle is a tough army to kill so is good for objectives while pumping out shots.

Also what kind of "oh myy" do you want. An "oh my that army is prettty" or an "oh my god how do i deal with this" army?

Thank you. What do you mean by mark? Is that mark of a God, which would then give some sort of bonus to the unit/s?

Slaanesh sounds like my preference, or Nurgle. I would imagine in my mind having a gunline consisting of troops, heavy gunner elites, and in reserve hidden Khorne Beserkers/Assault Pack units to intercept any attempt to CC my gunners. For objectives, I'd put in a load of cultists and basically keep the same tactic stacking them on objective with support to move in and protect the flanks.

Would that be a decent tactic? Furthermore, I imagine mixing Gods for each unit would bring out their best qualities - but I thought we had to "roll" to find out which God we received initially. (Sorry if I've misunderstood)

I mean both , but primarily "How do I deal with this?"

Well first, i have to apologise, I meant to say the helldrake, keep the hellbrute in your army for now. as for how good it is, well it is a great AT/ TEQ provided you protect it, only AV12 after all.

now as for the gods:
tzeench. main pros-if you have a sorceror in your list, helps a lot also makes thousand sons stronger with the aspiring sorcerors, a good rapid-fire range unit, works well with a close quarter shooting army

nurgle. good for beefing up units, really just an alll round augment should you take it for everything. just generally makes units tougher.

now slannesh and khorne are like two sides of a coin when it comes to close combat, slannesh grants +1I khorne grants FC but sound marines are generally an underrated shooting unit you might look into whereas bezerkers are good for a move shoot assault army.

hope this helps.

 Banicks wrote:

TheChaosGuy wrote:
It is easier to have a mixture of Gods to start with or with a few units of undivided. Remember that marks are upgrades which you don't have to have. If you want a theme then Tzeentch is probably the worst to go solo with when everyone has that mark, but is perfect for HQs. Khorne is fun if you can rush everyone up in rhinos and land raiders. Slaanesh makes a nice hammer and anvil with a good gunline and fast attack possibilities. Nurgle is a tough army to kill so is good for objectives while pumping out shots.

Also what kind of "oh myy" do you want. An "oh my that army is prettty" or an "oh my god how do i deal with this" army?

Thank you. What do you mean by mark? Is that mark of a God, which would then give some sort of bonus to the unit/s?

Slaanesh sounds like my preference, or Nurgle. I would imagine in my mind having a gunline consisting of troops, heavy gunner elites, and in reserve hidden Khorne Beserkers/Assault Pack units to intercept any attempt to CC my gunners. For objectives, I'd put in a load of cultists and basically keep the same tactic stacking them on objective with support to move in and protect the flanks.

Would that be a decent tactic? Furthermore, I imagine mixing Gods for each unit would bring out their best qualities - but I thought we had to "roll" to find out which God we received initially. (Sorry if I've misunderstood)

I mean both , but primarily "How do I deal with this?"

Don't forget that units can't assualt from reserve, but can shoot. So far you've got a pretty good idea. Nurgle units are very defensive (perfect for backfeild support and objective holding. Slaanesh is great for a quick attack. If you're worried about helping out you're shooty units when the enemy gets close enough to charge, bring a helbrute. They are good a shooting (multi melta) and assault units will think twice before getting close to it (power fist).

You can pay points to get a mark, no rolling. I think you're thinking of "gift of chaos" which gives you a roll on a chart. Also each member of a unit has to be of the same God and everyone has to have it.

I kinda like the idea of a Slaanesh and Nurgle force. The look of them on the board would be quite cool. There'd be the dark, browny green nurgle marines then the super bright pink and orange slaanesh marines.

I converted my whole Dark Vengeance box to chaos. It's a really nice start for a Chaos Army. Like all the other suggestions, I'd start with basic stuff and then slowly change up your list with upgrades and marks and gods as you get more familiar with the game.

I'd use the inquisitor as a Sorcerer and park him with the cultists or Marines and get a feel for that. A sorcerer's powers let you learn a lot about the game in a short amount of time.

The bikers work well also, Nurgle bikers are amazing and you can go pop tanks pretty easily with them.

blood guard26 wrote:Well first, i have to apologise, I meant to say the helldrake, keep the hellbrute in your army for now. as for how good it is, well it is a great AT/ TEQ provided you protect it, only AV12 after all.

now as for the gods:
tzeench. main pros-if you have a sorceror in your list, helps a lot also makes thousand sons stronger with the aspiring sorcerors, a good rapid-fire range unit, works well with a close quarter shooting army

nurgle. good for beefing up units, really just an alll round augment should you take it for everything. just generally makes units tougher.

now slannesh and khorne are like two sides of a coin when it comes to close combat, slannesh grants +1I khorne grants FC but sound marines are generally an underrated shooting unit you might look into whereas bezerkers are good for a move shoot assault army.

hope this helps.

Yes it does thank you.

TheChaosGuy wrote:
Don't forget that units can't assualt from reserve, but can shoot. So far you've got a pretty good idea. Nurgle units are very defensive (perfect for backfeild support and objective holding. Slaanesh is great for a quick attack. If you're worried about helping out you're shooty units when the enemy gets close enough to charge, bring a helbrute. They are good a shooting (multi melta) and assault units will think twice before getting close to it (power fist).

You can pay points to get a mark, no rolling. I think you're thinking of "gift of chaos" which gives you a roll on a chart. Also each member of a unit has to be of the same God and everyone has to have it.


I kinda like the idea of a Slaanesh and Nurgle force. The look of them on the board would be quite cool. There'd be the dark, browny green nurgle marines then the super bright pink and orange slaanesh marines.

Oh sorry, I used my own terminology not realising reserve means something in 40k. When I said reserve I meant I would just keep them hidden behind cover until such a time as CC posed a threat on my gunline. I like the idea of the Heldrake, would that replace Khorne/Assault Pack or symbiotically compliment each other.

I imagine if the points allowed, I could utilise Khorne to protect HQ, and in the case of Abaddon, I want to get him into melee combat. So overall, they would be my assaulting force, flanking movement persay. My gunline moves to position as required or not at all, with Heldrake ready to intercept any CC attempt. I would also love to field 5 or 10 CSM Terminators to complement the assault advance, providing covering fire and distraction whilst Abaddon moved up. Positioned correctly I imagine my gunline could then fire upon anything attempting to intercept the terminators. Should something make it to within CC range, they have a decent survival and CC capability I believe, and if not, the Heldrake could reposition to engage if they're locked. All the while in an objective my cultists would be moving/holding the point.

I think that would work? I suppose I just need to figure out unit costs.

Also, will I specifically have to paint my units in the appropriate God/Unit colour, or can they be one uniform?

Wingeds wrote:I converted my whole Dark Vengeance box to chaos. It's a really nice start for a Chaos Army. Like all the other suggestions, I'd start with basic stuff and then slowly change up your list with upgrades and marks and gods as you get more familiar with the game.

I'd use the inquisitor as a Sorcerer and park him with the cultists or Marines and get a feel for that. A sorcerer's powers let you learn a lot about the game in a short amount of time.

The bikers work well also, Nurgle bikers are amazing and you can go pop tanks pretty easily with them.

I was hoping to keep both my AOBR and DV SMs intact and in correct chapter colours - I have games at home sometimes (skirmishes). So I am prepared to invest outright in CSM, adding to the DV CSM force.




Bear with me guys, here is a listing I'd like to know if it would be viable and an "Oh myyy" force.

HQ
Abaddon the Despoiler x 1

Fast Attack
Chaos Space Marine Heldrake x 1
Chaos Space Marines Raptors/Warp Talons x 10

Elites
Chaos Space Marine Terminators x 5
Possessed Chaos Space Marine Terminators x 5
Chaos Space Marines Khorne Berzerkers x 12

Heavy Support
Chaos Space Marine Havocs x 5

Troops
Chaos Space Marines x10
Cultists x 20
Rhino x 1

CSM can be a challenging book to write tight lists with.

The competitive lists I've seen have either gone MSU cultists (for scoring purposes only) then maxing out threat in all other areas of the list (Spawn, Bikes, Heldrakes, Oblits, Maulerfiends, Lords on Bikes or Juggernauts).

Popular wargear loadout right now is Fisty-Claw (Power fist, Lightning Claw, 40pts).

Almost everything in the DV box for Chaos is terrible, unfortunately. The Chosen are very expensive and can't reliably get into combat, once they do, they are just "better than average" at it.

--

Havocs with 4 autocannons aren't a bad choice (I see you eyeing them up)

--

'Zerkers struggle with no conveyance to get to close combat. Landraiders only hold 10 guys, you can't assault out of a Rhino, and 3+ armour isn't going to get you across the battlefield.

--

I could see an Abaddon list with Chosen in a Landraider. That might be kinda cool?

--

Allying in Daemons is a solid choice. Bloodthirster is a beast, then some scoring daemons help out considerably. Lord of Change will also get you some Divination rolls (4++ save, Misfortune, and Prescience are all stellar buffs).

--

If your opponents are cool with some proxies while you figure out what you want to buy, that's the best way to go.

If I was starting Chaos fresh, I'd be tempted to play a fun Khorne marked Warpsmith in a Landraider with a Khorne Lord and some 'Zerkers backed up with some Cultists for scoring, a unit of Khorne marked terminators with mixed power weapons (keep 'em cheap), 2 maulerfiends and a pair of heldrakes.

Well to maximise use of your DV box.

1 The lord model is good and can be used.
6 Chosen... I would not use them as chosen. Buy yourself 2 or 3 boxes of chaos marines and plan on using them as champions for your squads.
20 cultists... I really don't like them but if you want to use them, then plan on one big unit and "counts as" either all with autoguns and stubbers or all with pistol & ccw and flamers.
1 Helbrute- I think it is an awesome looking model but weak for all the choices of a CSM army. If you are going to field it, I really like 3 or none... I am sure you can get 2 more real cheap on ebay.

I think 1 heldrake is an almost auto include and is a good place to start.

I like autocannons for havocs. It is decent AT, good at getting rid of infantry and because of ROF, decent anti-air. I have found the Forgeworld kit for autocannons is probably the best way to aquire them... For example if you plan on 3 units of troops and 2 havocs. 4 or 5 boxes of CSM and 2 autocannon kits and you can outfit both havocs with AC and have 2 left over to add to troop choices... The heavy bolters you get in the CSM box could be modeled up for a 3rd havoc while not the best, still a decent troop killing unit.

Rhinos - I would avoid it at this stage. You need numbers and unless you have everyone in a rhino, I think they have limited value. So 3 troops and 2 havocs, we are talking 5 rhinos so well over 150$...

Forgefiends heldrake combo is nasty and throw in a havoc squad of auto cannons easy anti light armor/infantry. Put the rest in troops and have abbadon run with a squad of slaanech terminators with icon in a land raider. i5 feel no pain terminators is amazing. That squad would be beast followed with rhino chosen/chaos drops

loreweaver wrote:CSM can be a challenging book to write tight lists with.

The competitive lists I've seen have either gone MSU cultists (for scoring purposes only) then maxing out threat in all other areas of the list (Spawn, Bikes, Heldrakes, Oblits, Maulerfiends, Lords on Bikes or Juggernauts).

Popular wargear loadout right now is Fisty-Claw (Power fist, Lightning Claw, 40pts).

Almost everything in the DV box for Chaos is terrible, unfortunately. The Chosen are very expensive and can't reliably get into combat, once they do, they are just "better than average" at it.

--

Havocs with 4 autocannons aren't a bad choice (I see you eyeing them up)

--

'Zerkers struggle with no conveyance to get to close combat. Landraiders only hold 10 guys, you can't assault out of a Rhino, and 3+ armour isn't going to get you across the battlefield.

--

I could see an Abaddon list with Chosen in a Landraider. That might be kinda cool?

--

Allying in Daemons is a solid choice. Bloodthirster is a beast, then some scoring daemons help out considerably. Lord of Change will also get you some Divination rolls (4++ save, Misfortune, and Prescience are all stellar buffs).

--

If your opponents are cool with some proxies while you figure out what you want to buy, that's the best way to go.

If I was starting Chaos fresh, I'd be tempted to play a fun Khorne marked Warpsmith in a Landraider with a Khorne Lord and some 'Zerkers backed up with some Cultists for scoring, a unit of Khorne marked terminators with mixed power weapons (keep 'em cheap), 2 maulerfiends and a pair of heldrakes.

DAaddict wrote:Well to maximise use of your DV box.

1 The lord model is good and can be used.
6 Chosen... I would not use them as chosen. Buy yourself 2 or 3 boxes of chaos marines and plan on using them as champions for your squads.
20 cultists... I really don't like them but if you want to use them, then plan on one big unit and "counts as" either all with autoguns and stubbers or all with pistol & ccw and flamers.
1 Helbrute- I think it is an awesome looking model but weak for all the choices of a CSM army. If you are going to field it, I really like 3 or none... I am sure you can get 2 more real cheap on ebay.

I think 1 heldrake is an almost auto include and is a good place to start.

I like autocannons for havocs. It is decent AT, good at getting rid of infantry and because of ROF, decent anti-air. I have found the Forgeworld kit for autocannons is probably the best way to aquire them... For example if you plan on 3 units of troops and 2 havocs. 4 or 5 boxes of CSM and 2 autocannon kits and you can outfit both havocs with AC and have 2 left over to add to troop choices... The heavy bolters you get in the CSM box could be modeled up for a 3rd havoc while not the best, still a decent troop killing unit.

Rhinos - I would avoid it at this stage. You need numbers and unless you have everyone in a rhino, I think they have limited value. So 3 troops and 2 havocs, we are talking 5 rhinos so well over 150$...

launcher348 wrote:Forgefiends heldrake combo is nasty and throw in a havoc squad of auto cannons easy anti light armor/infantry. Put the rest in troops and have abbadon run with a squad of slaanech terminators with icon in a land raider. i5 feel no pain terminators is amazing. That squad would be beast followed with rhino chosen/chaos drops

Thank you very much guys.

Some of this is going over my head a bit, so I can see where the earlier fellas said take it a bit at a time and add as you learn.

In essence, would it be a good idea to start with lets say:

Abaddon, 20 Chaos Space Marines, 5 CSM Terminators, CSM Heldrake x 1 or CSM Raptors/Warp Talons x 10 (which is better?) and x 5 CSM Havocs.

Would this be a good way to start out, or is it not very well rounded?

I'm sorry if I'm going backwards now, just all that information was overwhelming, except I keep getting the impression that the DV CSM isn't going to get me far, and I'm ultimately looking for clarification on the above being a staple to begin a well rounded force.

I will make it simple for you. Make a 1000 point list that includes 1 HQ 2 troops 1 elite or fast attack and a heavy. Play the it out if you don't like it change them around after you got your core group together add the other 1000 points in.

HQ
Abaddon the Despoiler x 1
He is awesome and very strong. A good choice for HQ.
Fast Attack
Chaos Space Marine Heldrake x 1
Chaos Space Marines Raptors/Warp Talons x 10
Sadly hard to use and very costly pointswise... I love the models but I would strongly recommend not using them.

Elites
Chaos Space Marine Terminators x 5
These are needed for Abaddon's escort and can deepstrike... With this in mind, give them MoT and combi-meltas with one guy getting a heavy flamer and chainfist this provides a very flexible and cost efficient unit.
Possessed Chaos Space Marine Terminators x 5
Second unit of termies - okay big points sink but can be good. Possessed? Please don't they are just too costly unless you give them a landraider and that makes them very costly.
Chaos Space Marines Khorne Berzerkers x 12
Good once in CC but very weak otherwise. I think you are better off saving the points and putting another troop choice out there. If you want them to be CC give them MoS, MoK or MoN and an extra CCW.

Heavy Support
Chaos Space Marine Havocs x 5
Hehe... as I said, I love these but I would make two of these. Great canopeners.

Troops
Chaos Space Marines x10

Cultists x 20
I truly detest these, if you want squishy guys, get allied IG so they can be armed with real weapons or toss them for another 10 man CSM unit. If you want something to sit in the back, arm it with a Plasma Gun + ML/AC/LC. It will stand up better and actually affect the battle for about the same points and not wilt the first time someone fires at it.
Rhino x 1
As I said before, don't buy one unless you plan on everyone getting one. 1 will not allow you to prevent enemy fire and 1 will probably die on turn 1 giving your opponent First Blood.

So lets go through it...


Abaddon: 265

Dark Apostle: Sigil of Corruption, MoN, Power Maul , VotLW (Chosen Model) 140
A good add to your army since he grants hatred to the squad he is attached to and more importantly rerolls on the Boons table... So when Abaddon wins a combat you can avoid him turning into a Chaos Spawn.

5 Terminators: 4x Combi-melta & power axe, 1 x Heavy Flamer & chainfist, MoT, VotLW 239
MoT to get to 4++ invulnerable save.
1 Helldrake w Baleflamer 170

10 CSM: + CCW, VotLW, MoN, 2x Plasma, Champion w 2 LC(Chosen) 260
The Apostle attaches to this squad. Note could be MoS to get the +1 I then you will want to Also change the DA

7 CSM: + CCW, VotLW, MoK, 1x Melta , Champion w PF(Chosen) 171

7 CSM: + CCW, VotLW, MoK, 1x Melta, Champion w Power Axe (Chosen) 161

10 CSM: VotLW, 1 x Plasma Gun, 1x Autocannon 175

6 Havocs: VotLW, 4 x Autocannons 134
6 Havocs: VotLW, 4 x Auto Cannons 134

1849

This army uses all your Chosen models. So what you need is:
1 Abaddon model
1 Box of Terminators
1 Heldrake
4 Boxes of CSM
You will need the autocannons ( I would recommend the FW expansion packs) and 2 terminator combi-melta arms. (ebay)

DAaddict wrote:
HQ
Abaddon the Despoiler x 1
He is awesome and very strong. A good choice for HQ.
Fast Attack
Chaos Space Marine Heldrake x 1
Chaos Space Marines Raptors/Warp Talons x 10
Sadly hard to use and very costly pointswise... I love the models but I would strongly recommend not using them.

Elites
Chaos Space Marine Terminators x 5
These are needed for Abaddon's escort and can deepstrike... With this in mind, give them MoT and combi-meltas with one guy getting a heavy flamer and chainfist this provides a very flexible and cost efficient unit.
Possessed Chaos Space Marine Terminators x 5
Second unit of termies - okay big points sink but can be good. Possessed? Please don't they are just too costly unless you give them a landraider and that makes them very costly.
Chaos Space Marines Khorne Berzerkers x 12
Good once in CC but very weak otherwise. I think you are better off saving the points and putting another troop choice out there. If you want them to be CC give them MoS, MoK or MoN and an extra CCW.

Heavy Support
Chaos Space Marine Havocs x 5
Hehe... as I said, I love these but I would make two of these. Great canopeners.

Troops
Chaos Space Marines x10

Cultists x 20
I truly detest these, if you want squishy guys, get allied IG so they can be armed with real weapons or toss them for another 10 man CSM unit. If you want something to sit in the back, arm it with a Plasma Gun + ML/AC/LC. It will stand up better and actually affect the battle for about the same points and not wilt the first time someone fires at it.
Rhino x 1
As I said before, don't buy one unless you plan on everyone getting one. 1 will not allow you to prevent enemy fire and 1 will probably die on turn 1 giving your opponent First Blood.

So lets go through it...


Abaddon: 265

Dark Apostle: Sigil of Corruption, MoN, Power Maul , VotLW (Chosen Model) 140
A good add to your army since he grants hatred to the squad he is attached to and more importantly rerolls on the Boons table... So when Abaddon wins a combat you can avoid him turning into a Chaos Spawn.

5 Terminators: 4x Combi-melta & power axe, 1 x Heavy Flamer & chainfist, MoT, VotLW 239
MoT to get to 4++ invulnerable save.
1 Helldrake w Baleflamer 170

10 CSM: + CCW, VotLW, MoN, 2x Plasma, Champion w 2 LC(Chosen) 260
The Apostle attaches to this squad. Note could be MoS to get the +1 I then you will want to Also change the DA

7 CSM: + CCW, VotLW, MoK, 1x Melta , Champion w PF(Chosen) 171

7 CSM: + CCW, VotLW, MoK, 1x Melta, Champion w Power Axe (Chosen) 161

10 CSM: VotLW, 1 x Plasma Gun, 1x Autocannon 175

6 Havocs: VotLW, 4 x Autocannons 134
6 Havocs: VotLW, 4 x Auto Cannons 134

1849

This army uses all your Chosen models. So what you need is:
1 Abaddon model
1 Box of Terminators
1 Heldrake
4 Boxes of CSM
You will need the autocannons ( I would recommend the FW expansion packs) and 2 terminator combi-melta arms. (ebay)

Thank you very much!

Very simple to follow.

5-man unit of raptors deepstriking with 2 melta guns is a reasonable points investment for tank hunting.

Warp Talons are for fun only. I've imagined a fun unit, Marked with Tzeentch with a lord on a disc, would be fun, but then I realized a Heldrake was 170 points... so much better in most situations.

--