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A friend and I played 5th edition for the longest time, mainly because we both had older codexes, (Necrons and Tau, respectively), but sense his codex got upgraded, and mine is about to do the same, we've started using 6th edition.

The one thing we both don't like: Random Charge Range. He doesn't like it conceptually, I just think it's Too random.

So, we compromised: Instead of 2D6 charge, it's 3"+1d6. Minimum range of 4 inches, max of 9. So far, it's worked pretty well. He gets more assurance that he'll be able to charge, and I get the risk-reward factor I like about 40K so much.

Any suggestions? Too much, too little, any suggestions at all will help.

change it to 3.5+1d6 so that it's closer to what it should be
how do you take difficult terrain into account ?

I personally don't mind random charge range too much.

But then, I play eldar so most of my combat units (which at the moment basically consists of harlequins) have fleet for the re-roll anyway plus I tend to go mostly shooty under 6th as most of my hth units need a vehicle to be effective (i.e. banshees) and vehicle assaults are all but impossible now if you are not open topped or a land raider.

TanKoL wrote:
change it to 3.5+1d6 so that it's closer to what it should be
how do you take difficult terrain into account ?

For DT, two D6 are rolled and the lower result is taken. The negatives for charging through DT is already pretty harsh, and 6th already favors shooty.

Sounds pretty good. I guess the reason why they put the random charge range in the game would be that story-wise the charge was pushed back by the overwatch of the defenders.
That or seeing someone roll a 2 when they're 3" away from you is always hilarious.

That sounds really good. Playing Orks, I find that the random charge distance makes strategizing in competitive games really difficult.

Hmmm. Why not go the whole hog and make it 7"?

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Hmmm. Why not go the whole hog and make it 7"?

Like I said, I enjoy the risk-reward factor that random charge range offers. I just don't think it needs to be as varied, as this way at least some level of strategy can be applied.

Or go charge is 6" period...as it should be for most infantry.

the point of random charge is to give players two options - should I charge from range, or up close? charging from range is risky, but it means your unit might not suffer as many casualties before it enters combat, while charging up close is safer (you don't need to travel far, so in theory the chance of you hitting your opponent is greater). I think it's good because it brings a new tactical edge to your game.


However, as said before, the 2" inch trip up ticks me off, so I like your idea of a bigger minimum roll.


GA

PLay Eldar, get yourself some Fleet!

Not that I ever do much charging with Eldar, but still...


The other option would be normal charge is 3d6, taking the 2 highest, while difficult terrain is the standard 2d6. Pretty much just a standardisation and slight increase in all charge ranges.

Most dedicated assault units have fleet or ways to get close enough that charge is basically assured.

I didn't like the look of random charge range but now that I play with it I love it.

It gives melee specialists an edge over say a tactical marine squad, the assault phase should feel like a last ditch effort if you're not a dedicated assault unit. The risk/reward feels about right now.

I'm judging by the way you formulated your post OP that you've only played it a few games, I'd suggest you try it a couple more times, the ability that you can possible charge 12'' adds a level of depth to the game that gives better players an edge because they can make calculated risks. And the random charge range is really 0 hindrance to units that should be assaulting anyway.

Ice_JT,

I'm not sure, I've definitely played quite a few games and I really am not in favor of random charge ranges. I just have issues with my movement being inconsistent in general.

 Ice_JT wrote:
Most dedicated assault units have fleet or ways to get close enough that charge is basically assured.

Basically assured=/=assured, being four inches away from you target could be considered basically assured but you can still roll a two or three total. With random charge range the only way to be assured you get in to assault is to be two inches away, and what do you mean "most dedicated assault units have fleet" the majority do not.

 Ice_JT wrote:
It gives melee specialists an edge over say a tactical marine squad, the assault phase should feel like a last ditch effort if you're not a dedicated assault unit. The risk/reward feels about right now.

The majority of melee specialists don't have fleet so with the exception of taking assault transports (or being jump infantry) shooting specialists are just as good as melee specialists at getting into assault. So how do melee specialists have an edge over less specialized troops when it comes to getting into assault?

 Ice_JT wrote:
I'm judging by the way you formulated your post OP that you've only played it a few games, I'd suggest you try it a couple more times, the ability that you can possible charge 12'' adds a level of depth to the game that gives better players an edge because they can make calculated risks. And the random charge range is really 0 hindrance to units that should be assaulting anyway.

0 hindrance? How is it 0 hindrance? Taking another round of shoot and overwatch because your guys temporarily forgot how to run is not 0 hindrance.

You never have 100% assurance nor should you, you don't have assurance that your combi-meltas podding in will kill a stationary wartruck nor do you have assurance that your power fist terminator will kill a grot.

With the exception of say assault terminator type deathstar units it's easier to name melee specialists that DON'T have an ability to re-roll charge ranges.
all units with jump packs/wings - check
almost all tyranid infantry - check
ork power of the waaagh - check
most eldar and dark eldar infantry have fleet - check
chaos daemons have beasts and tons of fleet - check
I could go on if you'd like

Units in transports move an extra 6'' per turn over their 5th ed counterparts in 6th, that more than makes up for the ability to sometimes fail a charge.

0 hindrance? How is it 0 hindrance? Taking another round of shoot and overwatch because your guys temporarily forgot how to run is not 0 hindrance.

That functionally never happens, and it is offset by having the larger charge range potential. Do the math and a unit with fleet will get into combat more often than they would have in 5th.

The average charge range has increased in 6th, it's only the standard deviation that has changed, a lot of stuff moves faster by virtue of fleet having your units move faster when not charging and vehicles moving flat out. All this benefit is offset by overwatch and the occasional (which is really very small chance if you are assaulting correctly) chance of not making your assault the first time.

In the big picture of things Assault has been upgraded for skilled players in 6th, it's the view of rules out of context and in a vacuum which lead to the perception of it being worse.

 Ice_JT wrote:
Most dedicated assault units have fleet or ways to get close enough that charge is basically assured.

No they do not. I have no idea what would make you think that unless you only play with or against Eldar/Dark Eldar. Then there's overwatch, which can seriously jack your pack up if the models in front take a shot to the face. Overwatch can take a unit that was a good 6" away and make it so they're 9" away with a good (and lucky) Overwatch.

 Ice_JT wrote:

I didn't like the look of random charge range but now that I play with it I love it.

That's fine for you, but I really, really HATE it when my highly trained combat veterans FORGET HOW TO RUN.

 Ice_JT wrote:

It gives melee specialists an edge over say a tactical marine squad, the assault phase should feel like a last ditch effort if you're not a dedicated assault unit. The risk/reward feels about right now.

Only those with fleet have an edge, however slight, and both can get into combat. A Tactical Marine squad can roll a 9 just as easily as a Wych unit or Assault Marine squad can. Fleet is a "oh crap, my insanely fast warriors with turbines on their back just ran the equivalent of ten feet for no discernible reason, I need to re-do that." All it does is give you a second chance to not suck.

 Ice_JT wrote:

I'm judging by the way you formulated your post OP that you've only played it a few games, I'd suggest you try it a couple more times, the ability that you can possible charge 12'' adds a level of depth to the game that gives better players an edge because they can make calculated risks. And the random charge range is really 0 hindrance to units that should be assaulting anyway.

Dude, I've only played a few games in 6th, and random charge length is gak. Sure, it adds to the risk/reward factor; no one is arguing that. What people are arguing is that it is not longer something you can plan for, because it is entirely random. Combined with Overwatch, which can be devastating in its own right, "dedicated assault units" like Wyches, Banshees, Assault Marines, and pretty much every Tyranid can be screwed out of assault because they not only charge 3", but they get a round of Overwatch to the face.

Dude, I've only played a few games in 6th, and random charge length is gak. Sure, it adds to the risk/reward factor; no one is arguing that. What people are arguing is that it is not longer something you can plan for, because it is entirely random. Combined with Overwatch, which can be devastating in its own right, "dedicated assault units" like Wyches, Banshees, Assault Marines, and pretty much every Tyranid can be screwed out of assault because they not only charge 3", but they get a round of Overwatch to the face.

If you're saying you can't plan for random charge length due to it being random then you're saying you can't plan for anything due to the probabilistic nature of rolling dice. Which is obviously not true.

Wyches, Banshees, Assault Marines and most tyranids CAN re-roll their bad dice rolls!

Ice,

Sorry, didn't have the time earlier to do a good reply.

The thing about random charges is the fact that there is hardly anything in the game that differentiates between a fast assault unit and a slow assault unit when it comes to their charge. Yes there are things like fleet that help with that, but I think you think they are far more common than they actually are. Tyranid Gaunts, Trygons, Raveners, Gargoyles, Genestealers, and Lictors are the units that have a way to reroll their charges. Tyranids are arguably the most assault-oriented army in the game, but not even half their codex have a way to help get into close combat.

Lastly, I have a hard time believing that Fleet helps more units get into close combat now than it did for 5th edition. In 5th edition, units had an average threat range of 15.5" for assault. Assuming 75% of the max due to rerolls, that means the average threat range for fleet units now is 15." This isn't a huge change obviously, but the range values increases from 13-18 to 8-18 which is much more frustrating.

 rabid1903 wrote:
Ice,


The thing about random charges is the fact that there is hardly anything in the game that differentiates between a fast assault unit and a slow assault unit when it comes to their charge. Yes there are things like fleet that help with that, but I think you think they are far more common than they actually are. Tyranid Gaunts, Trygons, Raveners, Gargoyles, Genestealers, and Lictors are the units that have a way to reroll their charges. Tyranids are arguably the most assault-oriented army in the game, but not even half their codex have a way to help get into close combat.

All I said is their assault specialists have ways to mitagate the randomness, which is true as as shown by the above units all having fleet.

You also have to take into account the extra inches you're getting every turn from fleet or being a flying monstrous creature or using a transport. All those things are now faster (re-roll run distance, flat out for all vehicles and 24 for flying MC's). So you actually very often get to charge a turn earlier than you otherwise would in 5th, Overwatch and the chance of failing a charge are balancing factors for your faster movement.

Ice, my point in this isn't that random charge range is bad. In fact, as I've stated, I like the risk-reward factor. I just don't think it should be quite so random. The average charge distance doesn't change with my suggestion, if anything it increases, the only thing that changes is the max and the minimum. It still allows for the risk-reward factor, but also allows for more strategic play. In exchange for a higher minimum, you only give up the last 3" of charge range that you're not likely to get anyway.

As for fleet helping mitigate the issues with charge: I play Tau. I've played against Nids, which have a lot of units with fleet. They made it into combat more often than the Necron player I play against, sure, but every time they failed it was devastating. Between getting a free Overwatch on them (in rapid-fire range, at that) and my next round of shooting, they usually lost half of their unit. And when he assaulted my mechsuite who I'd given a flame-thrower... well, they didn't make the charge, took the Overwatch, got hit with the flamer again next round, and then I jet-packed away. Trust me, this rule suggestion benefits my opponents much more than it does me.

 Ice_JT wrote:


You also have to take into account the extra inches you're getting every turn from fleet or being a flying monstrous creature or using a transport. All those things are now faster (re-roll run distance, flat out for all vehicles and 24 for flying MC's). So you actually very often get to charge a turn earlier than you otherwise would in 5th, Overwatch and the chance of failing a charge are balancing factors for your faster movement.

Did you miss the part where you're not allowed to assault out of vehicles that aren't assault vehicles anymore? Or from reserves? I don't know what fictional world you live in, but you don't get to assault any sooner in 6th than you did in 5th, and it's not as reliable or safe. Random charge distances is roughly the equivalent of having to roll for your shooting range. It adds yet more penalties to melee, which was already worse than shooting in 5th.

the only thing I dont get is how massive walking Sarcophagi can sprint twice how far they move to clobber something, but then something small, quick & fast that is up your arse on turn 2 cant even reach you at all

 Ice_JT wrote:
You never have 100% assurance nor should you, you don't have assurance that your combi-meltas podding in will kill a stationary wartruck nor do you have assurance that your power fist terminator will kill a grot.

You always have 100% assurance that you will get to shoot at something in range. You may not hit but if you are in range you at least get to roll the dice, with random charge range you don't even have that. As AlmightWalrus say it is like needing to roll for the range of your guns.

 Ice_JT wrote:

With the exception of say assault terminator type deathstar units it's easier to name melee specialists that DON'T have an ability to re-roll charge ranges.
all units with jump packs/wings - check
almost all tyranid infantry - check
ork power of the waaagh - check
most eldar and dark eldar infantry have fleet - check
chaos daemons have beasts and tons of fleet - check
I could go on if you'd like

That simply isn't true. All the marine codexs I know of only have that ability on jump infantry and they only get to do that if they give up their jump move in the movement phase. Orks only get it on one turn. As for daemons I can't say as I have never read their codex. Necrons only have it on wraiths and triarch preatorians which are jump infantry so they don't really count(because seriously why give up 6 assured inches of movement in exchange for possibly 6 inches of movment). I will have to give you eldar. And as for 'nids...

rabid1903 wrote: Tyranid Gaunts, Trygons, Raveners, Gargoyles, Genestealers, and Lictors are the units that have a way to reroll their charges. Tyranids are arguably the most assault-oriented army in the game, but not even half their codex have a way to help get into close combat.

That sums it up pretty nicely.

 Ice_JT wrote:

0 hindrance? How is it 0 hindrance? Taking another round of shoot and overwatch because your guys temporarily forgot how to run is not 0 hindrance.

That functionally never happens, and it is offset by having the larger charge range potential. Do the math and a unit with fleet will get into combat more often than they would have in 5th.

The average charge range has increased in 6th, it's only the standard deviation that has changed, a lot of stuff moves faster by virtue of fleet having your units move faster when not charging and vehicles moving flat out. All this benefit is offset by overwatch and the occasional (which is really very small chance if you are assaulting correctly) chance of not making your assault the first time.

In the big picture of things Assault has been upgraded for skilled players in 6th, it's the view of rules out of context and in a vacuum which lead to the perception of it being worse.

Yes, because failing 5/6 charges in a game is functionally never.(just for context the ranges required were 11" 12" 6" 4" 8" 3" in the order I attempted them, I only made the last one.) Larger potential doesn't mean gak if you can't rely on it.

As for the charge rang increase...

rabid1903 wrote: Lastly, I have a hard time believing that Fleet helps more units get into close combat now than it did for 5th edition. In 5th edition, units had an average threat range of 15.5" for assault. Assuming 75% of the max due to rerolls, that means the average threat range for fleet units now is 15." This isn't a huge change obviously, but the range values increases from 13-18 to 8-18 which is much more frustrating.

I can't help but to agree with rabid.

 Ice_JT wrote:

Dude, I've only played a few games in 6th, and random charge length is gak. Sure, it adds to the risk/reward factor; no one is arguing that. What people are arguing is that it is not longer something you can plan for, because it is entirely random. Combined with Overwatch, which can be devastating in its own right, "dedicated assault units" like Wyches, Banshees, Assault Marines, and pretty much every Tyranid can be screwed out of assault because they not only charge 3", but they get a round of Overwatch to the face.

If you're saying you can't plan for random charge length due to it being random then you're saying you can't plan for anything due to the probabilistic nature of rolling dice. Which is obviously not true.

Wyches, Banshees, Assault Marines and most tyranids CAN re-roll their bad dice rolls!

Don't even start that gak. Just because this is a game of dice does NOT in any way excuse mechanics that are entirely random. You have a change to get a 2 or a 12 or anything in between with equal likeliness. Rolling and hoping you get a 3 or better is not the same as rolling 2d6 and hoping you get whatever need at that time. Oh, and assault marines can only recollection of the love 6" in the movement phase.

Models should have an M value.

Just putting it out there.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Models should have an M value.

Just putting it out there.

Quite right! My Howling Banshees can most likely run faster than THSS Terminators.

I skipped a bit of this so sorry if its bee suggested, but 4D3?

That way you still get the same maximum charge but the minimum is limited to 4 inches so less tripping up. Downside is that it takes longer.