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OK, This will not be a popular post. Fine.

It will, however, be a post focused upon recognizing the many problems of the new codex. We Tau players need to quickly put away the rose coloured glasses and come to grips with the reality of what we were just given as an "Army".


First, The first couple of 6th ed Codices seemed *meh* but functional as stnd alone armies but really shined when paired with the right ally. Sadly, IMO, this is not the case for the Tau.

Yes, our army has been given bunch of new shineys, improved weapons and special rules. We also have received massive nerfs in the areas that were already our most critical weaknesses. As anyone who remembers the 5th ed Tyranid release knows, New Shineys, improved weapons and new rules does not necessarily make for a functioning and competitive army. If these new thing do not synergize in a manner that properly balances the weakness then the army fails.
Unfortunately, the Tau could very well be the 'Nids of 6th ed.


Here are what were the 3 biggest issues for the Tau from start of 5th ed that have carried all the way into this new codex only worse.

Not enough VoF in the long range S8-10 to effectively counter prevalent IG and Necron builds

No way to effectively get our scoring units(troops) onto our opponents rear objectives
*(Overcosted & Undergunned transport that was no faster and had less firepower than a chimera.)
*(No deep striking Troops)
*(No fast insertion vehicles)

Over dependence upon certain units and wargear.


Not enough Volume of Fire in High strength weapons to counter certain prevalent builds. The Broadside Railgun "Repurposing"/"nerf" exacerbated this. It made the Broadsides a unit more useful to other armies than it is to our own. Actually, between the Broadside nerf, making our vehicles completely dependent upon marker lights to function adequately our Heavy slots will force us to use markerlights and crisis fusion teams to handle AV13+ spam.
Now, I don't mind running such a build occasionally but detest the idea of being limited to such. Also detest the idea of having to run markerlights.


So, we did not get a means of putting scoring units effectively on our opponents rear objectives. This right here is a massive issue that was made worse by removing our vehicles ability to fire as if they were fast. Yes, markerlights can now help with snap shots but this just adds to the over reliance on certain units/wargear issue.
Tau not getting a fast troop delivery method(Fast transport, Deep Strikers or jet-pack troops) leaves the Tau at a distinct disadvantage in over half of the missions.
.

The Tau are now completely dependent upon marker lights and due to this, we will be limited to certain builds and our opponents will know how to easily neuter our effectiveness.



Next, As to getting scoring units on the back objectives??? I suggest Jet-bike Eldar or Drop Pod SM's because the Tau are "not a complete army". Instead of putting the work into developing a proper and full codex we got 2/3's of a codex at full codex price. The failure to drop the points on our transports, no new fast transport/flier transport and not to even attempt to move unused units to more fitting areas of the FOC just comes across as lazy



Finally, Is this Codex Tau or Codex Markerlights?
Seeing as we Tau are going to be dependent upon them, we might as well figure the best way to get them into our army without sacrificing to many FOS slots of shooting.

I propose the best way to get markerlight is to buy a Gun drones squadron, swap for markerlight drones for free and then join them to a BS5 iridium armour ECM commander with drone controller and 2 marker drones.
Next would be to run a battlesuit commander & body guards all with Marker drones.

The Tau will need at least a third unit to get enough markers going in enough directions to properly meet the now completely markerlight dependent needs of the Tau. I suggest the Sky Rays or on you crisis teams in order to leave the FA slots open for other things


Oh well, I'm not going to worry. This is because while I may postulate upon tactics, I think that I will drop the Tau and 40k for a while, Not really looking forward to every opponent I face having my units cough*Broadsides*Cough*cough*staring back at me. The whole allies thing is killing the flavor of the game for me.

Okay I agree completely with your statements about allies, it seems like they made us alliable with everyone so they could all get access to effective antiair and our suits. I feel like the allies degrade the game as it isn't about using your armies strengths and weaknesses against anothers, its just about patching up your armies weaknesses with anothers armies strengths, kinda removes the uniqueness of each armies ability.

I for one never really found *any* of the things you listed to be an issue, except maybe your point about high strength volume of fire... but if you didnt notice we now have access to more high strength weapons at a cheaper price than ever before, so its kind of a moot point.

I know this is an oversimplification but this is what I am hearing:

1. We can't spam S10 anymore.
2. We need markerlights.
3. Our troop transport sucks.

1 - So you can't spam railguns anymore, so what? You've got a lot of high strength shooting and you also have a commander that can no scatter deepstrike with a huge retinue of Crisis Suits. You have another HQ that can carry two damn fusion guns and fire them at separate targets, all while giving the unit at least a 4+ cover save. You can equip a generic commander to give rerolls to hit and ignores cover to an entire unit and you can still roll on the Tau Warlord table to get the no scatter deep strike on a nonspecial character.

Sorry you'll have to deal with Hammerheads being your only source of strength 10. Which for a measly 45 points you can upgrade to have BS5 and Tankhunter FFS.

2 - Didn't you already need markerlights? Now you can take more of them and in more FOC slots. So what if Crisis teams aren't BS4 anymore? They can always get twinlinked weapons and they can always be accompanied by a commander that can increase their firepower or help them in all sorts of ways. It might be a shoehorn sort of thing, but it forces you to use multiple units in concert to take on targets with effectiveness.

3. The devilfish may be expensive but it doesn't suck. It's a friggen tank that is also a skimmer. If you really want to move with that thing, you can. You're always going to get a cover save if you move, and you get a Burst cannon to boot. Don't compare it to the chimera. The chimera is far and away the best transport in the game. You can use devilfish. They are pretty damn good. The points cost just means you can't spam them.

I think Tau will be an incredibly powerful army once everyone gets over the whining stage. Sorry that the new codex made triple railsides obsolete but people will cope.

+1 Gpfunk

It seems to me that you are complaining more about allies than this new release.

Tell me again what good a squad of Str10 railguns are against a horde of daemons/orcs/foot guard? Did you miss the memo that mentioned 6th edition moving away from mech and more to infantry based combat.

Now tell me which is better, 3 Str10 railguns or 36 missiles going into 6th editions flyers?

I would rather have the option to take skyfire or interceptor and have those 36 shots than 3 TL old railgun shots.

You are mad that Tau didn't get better transports, well I also must ask what good are firewarriors in the center of the enemies lines? can they beat down tactical marines? Can they take out the big MCs brought by tyranids? No I didn't think so. So maybe TAU should have also been given good CC units and good transports to get them onto back objectives. Maybe should give them 3+ saves and BS 4 while they are at it.

Missilesides are going to change 40k especially after you have added a juiced up commander to it. Armour 14 is the only thing that can laugh off a missileside squad and how much armour 14 is there running around?

 gpfunk wrote:
1. We can't spam S10 anymore.
2. We need markerlights.
3. Our troop transport sucks.

4) Our Hammerheads suck, and our fusion Piranhas are nerfed into 'sucks but at least they're cheap'.

You've got a lot of high strength shooting

No, we really don't. We have Hammerheads (which suck) and melta guns. That's it. Otherwise we have autocannon spam in an edition where autocannon spam is a terrible strategy.

2 - Didn't you already need markerlights?

No. They were a nice bonus but you could easily build a BS 4 Tau army that doesn't depend on markerlights.

It might be a shoehorn sort of thing, but it forces you to use multiple units in concert to take on targets with effectiveness.

I'm glad that Codex:Magic Laser Pointers is the only army that has to combine units just for basic shooting, while everyone else gets to bring efficient and powerful single units that you just point at something and watch your opponent remove models from the table.

oh and can't forget that the bomber doesn't function sigh

valace2 wrote:
oh and can't forget that the bomber doesn't function sigh

At least that's a relatively straightforward "GW suck at writing clear rules" problem that everyone will play RAI until the inevitable FAQ fixes it RAW. Sadly no amount of typo fixing will change the real problem, that the bomber is a terrible unit.

 Peregrine wrote:

valace2 wrote:
oh and can't forget that the bomber doesn't function sigh

At least that's a relatively straightforward "GW suck at writing clear rules" problem that everyone will play RAI until the inevitable FAQ fixes it RAW. Sadly no amount of typo fixing will change the real problem, that the bomber is a terrible unit.

not everything can be a haldrake or scythe.

valace2 wrote:
not everything can be a haldrake or scythe.

Sure. The GW Hobby (tm) has lots of room for cool model kits that you paint and put on your display shelf and never use because you're too busy winning games with Vendettas and Helldrakes. It's just unfortunate that they had to waste both Tau flyers on that kind of kit.

I agree with nearly everything OP said. I'm bit unsure about Broadside nerf. On the other hand, being able to take entire squadrons of highly S10 AP1 guns was sorta gross, even though it was always fun to see your opponent gulp when Broadsides were put on the table. However, I fear that the loss of AT ability will have to be compensated by making the HS slot even more crowded - people gush about sniper drones, but mix of Broadsides and Hammerheads still seem like absolutely necessary. Is there room for other HS options?

Old Tau was absolutely dependent from destroying enemy transports as early as possible, because there were limited ways of dealing with the contents. In new codex, these options have greatly increased, particularly in form of powerful large blasts which Tau was lacking earlier. So in this sense the nerf might not be so serious. But I still don't understand how Tau are then going to deal with backfield tank spam, as those don't need to come closer and your Fusion blasters won't reach them.

Also, whole Railgun business just seems like bit of....forced, if you understand what I mean. It's like Tau came up with this awesome weapon and then agreed that "oh, we better not take more than 1 to 3 per Hunter Cadre. Because it wouldn't be sporting otherwise towards the other guys." Old Tau felt like they did not need equivalent of Multi-meltas or Lascannons because they could take much better stuff. Now, it feels like they are intentionally gimping themselves by not having anything more powerful than S8 save for one gun in one tank.

And of course the way the army is now dependent from Markerlights, with nearly all other shooting aids taken away, is just really horrible attempt to force us to artificial "synergy" where Markerlights are now core element of the Army. Great Vehicle Nerf is a particular example of this travesty.

 Peregrine wrote:

valace2 wrote:
not everything can be a haldrake or scythe.

Sure. The GW Hobby (tm) has lots of room for cool model kits that you paint and put on your display shelf and never use because you're too busy winning games with Vendettas and Helldrakes. It's just unfortunate that they had to waste both Tau flyers on that kind of kit.

Yes because Vendettas are as good as old broadsides at taking out horde orc/tyranids/daemons/foot guard. I seem to remember getting cover saves from lascannons. Tactical marines behind a defense line can a 4+ cover or even 2+ if they go to ground against a Vendetta. A heldrake cooks them all the same. Markerlights can negate a Vendettas jink save, while the Heldrake doesn't need it.

Heldrakes beat out Vendettas.

4) Our Hammerheads suck, and our fusion Piranhas are nerfed into 'sucks but at least they're cheap'.

I have to disagree, while I don't like the railhead swap out for the Ion Cannon and overcharge. Spam 3 of these and you can pretty much take out MEQ, add ML to remove cover and units will die. Add the Advance Targeting and remove and special characters guaranteed.

I personally will run the Riptide with the Ion Accelerator, once overcharged it turns into ordinance at strength 9 rolling 2 d6 for penetration.

I agree with above that with the ion cannon the hammerhead is basicly a cheaper leman russ.

 Peregrine wrote:

4) Our Hammerheads suck, and our fusion Piranhas are nerfed into 'sucks but at least they're cheap'.

Maybe it's perspective? In the grand scheme of the codexes it's at least dead average. It's an AV13 skimmer that has a 50/50 chance to hit with a strength 10 weapon. And your codex is also the only one that can reliably increase BS and remove cover. It's certainly better than the looted tank, arguably better or on par with a basic LRBT. Pretty good all codexes considered.

No, we really don't. We have Hammerheads (which suck) and melta guns. That's it. Otherwise we have autocannon spam in an edition where autocannon spam is a terrible strategy.

Didn't you favor autocannons over lascannons with imperial guard? Why is guard autocannon spam suddenly more effective than tau autocannon spam? Volume of shots certainly strips hull points. And your suits are pretty mobile so they can try to get favorable armor facings. And since when are meltaguns bad? Especially when you can deepstrike without scatter or just come in on the board edge you want with certain wargear.

No. They were a nice bonus but you could easily build a BS 4 Tau army that doesn't depend on markerlights.

You can still run mostly Crisis Teams, you just have to twinlink weapon systems. Less effective, but it isn't dead. The markerlight is such a great little item i'm not sure what list would really be at a disadvantage by taking a few here and there.

I'm glad that Codex:Magic Laser Pointers is the only army that has to combine units just for basic shooting, while everyone else gets to bring efficient and powerful single units that you just point at something and watch your opponent remove models from the table.

Yeah, heaven forbid any codex have a different playstyle or flavor rather than point and click A at B. You lose BS4 on a few units in exchange for reliably being able to increase BS to 5 and remove cover. Pretty good deal in my opinion.

Point for point, stat for stat, it isn't the most powerful codex. But that hardly necessitates a "Welp the new codex sucks guess i'll just kvetch and complain for another 8 years" thread.

 gpfunk wrote:

Maybe it's perspective? In the grand scheme of the codexes it's at least dead average. It's an AV13 skimmer that has a 50/50 chance to hit with a strength 10 weapon. And your codex is also the only one that can reliably increase BS and remove cover. It's certainly better than the looted tank, arguably better or on par with a basic LRBT. Pretty good all codexes considered.

Anything is better than Looted tank, and new rules nerfed LRBT. It's terrible, it used to be mobile, versatile tank, now it's only role is to put S10 shot once per turn and hope for the best.

Point for point, stat for stat, it isn't the most powerful codex. But that hardly necessitates a "Welp the new codex sucks guess i'll just kvetch and complain for another 8 years" thread.

It's not that it's weak, it doesn't offer variety. Previously good tanks were intentionally nerfed so everyone would be forced to use suits (particularly Riptide) and Markerlights. It's terrible Codex design. OP is right, Tau is the new Tyranids.

Backfire wrote:

Anything is better than Looted tank, and new rules nerfed LRBT. It's terrible, it used to be mobile, versatile tank, now it's only role is to put S10 shot once per turn and hope for the best.

At least you have a chance to pen a landraider outside of close combat. Orks only really have Power Klaws.

It's not that it's weak, it doesn't offer variety. Previously good tanks were intentionally nerfed so everyone would be forced to use suits (particularly Riptide) and Markerlights. It's terrible Codex design. OP is right, Tau is the new Tyranids.

If you want to play the codex a different way then you absolutely can. You come to terms with the fact that it isn't the most ZOMG powerful build and you play it to the best of your abilities because you enjoy it. Markerlight spam is probably going to be the competitive build. Guess what the main competitive build is for Chaos Space Marines? Triple Helldrakes. Competitive play generally streamlines things into the most powerful builds possible. For many codexes, it's only one. If you're playing semi-competitive or casual you have more options.

That's the same story for many codexes. You can complain about lack of COMPETITIVE variety, sure. But a great many other codexes currently out have the same problem.

No tyranids can win without allies because of psychic buffs - they are really not that bad. I'm not sure Tau can. However, they make a great allied detachment - as they did before the new codex. In fact they are better now in that capacity.

 gpfunk wrote:

Backfire wrote:

It's not that it's weak, it doesn't offer variety. Previously good tanks were intentionally nerfed so everyone would be forced to use suits (particularly Riptide) and Markerlights. It's terrible Codex design. OP is right, Tau is the new Tyranids.

If you want to play the codex a different way then you absolutely can. You come to terms with the fact that it isn't the most ZOMG powerful build and you play it to the best of your abilities because you enjoy it.

No I can't. It's not that it's not "competive", it's the fact that playing Tau in the old, mechanized way is quite literally impossible. Codex no longer has the tools for it. Sure I could ATTEMPT to do that, but results would be so hilariously mismatched (my army's firepower would be gimped about 50%) that it's not a proper "match".

Codex: markerlight. Is this a bad thing? Markerlights are a unique way of making tau feel different from other armies. Tau is about focusing to kill things not going one on one and hoping you have the better unites. And marker lights did not functionally change that much from the old codex to the new one, so what happened? They got cheaper, simple as that. Before you had to pay around 175 points for one team of makerlights and you were better off just spending those points on more crisis suits. Now at 88 points for 8 pathfinders or 12 points per marker drone (rather than 30) marker lights cost half as much, so they are suddenly worth taking. Does this mean we will be using one or two FoC for marker lights? Sure, is this a bad thing? No. Again it is a unique part of our army that makes us function differently. You also really don't need a ton of marker lights. I got by with 8 pathfinders in the old codex, I might double that number now because they are so cheap but 8 lets you take out those really high threat target such as devastaters before they can do much harm. You don't need markerlights when you are shooting at chaff. If you are worried about FoC how many FA slots do you need at under 2k?

Broadsides. loss of our s10 gun sucks. I am not going to lie, this is my biggest disappointment with the new codex. This does take a lot of wind from our sails. I felt at s10 broadsides had a lot of use but were not overly powerful. If the s8 was paired with another ability like lance or melta or tank hunter it would be somewhat okay but as is it just is not strong enough. The missile pods are nice for anti-air but a little weak on the ground, and lack of range (36'' is not that long when you are used to 72'') really hurts us. But we will adapt. Shadowsun with 3 crisis suits w/ fb can get the job done.

Not being able to take forward objectives is a problem, but it is a problem for most armies and none of the shooty armies are good at it because they sit back and shoot. This is just game mechanics and not targeted at tau directly. Some things that have changed though, our weapons are strong enough to reliably slay the warlord (s8 ap2 large blast with ignore cover makes it hard to hide) and if we go first we can almost always get first blood from focus firing a unit. With how cheap marker lights are now clearing out buildings will not be a problem so your opponent will have a much harder time camping objectives. Marine lists tend to run very few scoring units and we have so much anti-marine now it is not that hard to focus first those and leave the opponent unable to score.

I am not saying we don't have problems but they are not horrible.

Backfire wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:

Backfire wrote:

It's not that it's weak, it doesn't offer variety. Previously good tanks were intentionally nerfed so everyone would be forced to use suits (particularly Riptide) and Markerlights. It's terrible Codex design. OP is right, Tau is the new Tyranids.

If you want to play the codex a different way then you absolutely can. You come to terms with the fact that it isn't the most ZOMG powerful build and you play it to the best of your abilities because you enjoy it.

No I can't. It's not that it's not "competive", it's the fact that playing Tau in the old, mechanized way is quite literally impossible. Codex no longer has the tools for it. Sure I could ATTEMPT to do that, but results would be so hilariously mismatched (my army's firepower would be gimped about 50%) that it's not a proper "match".

So, because the codex isn't built in the way you want...it's a crap codex? Try your mech tau. Seriously. Try em. Post a battle report or two. See if it's really that bad off. The codex has been out for under a week. Maybe even try a hybrid build with some mech and some suits.

Just because the Chaos codex doesn't allow me to play an all infiltrating Alpha legion or a Raptors as troops Night Lords army doesnt mean it sucks. Saying that is lunacy.

"Ermahgerd! My new book sucks because every single unit didn't get buffed while keeping their old strength, costing less, and having no disadvantages whatsoever."

Wow really? How odd.

Gpfunk has it spot on.

Instead of spending the last week moaning Backfire why don't you actually get loads of games in and post the reports and how you felt units did instead of "this sucks because of this" etc.

Markerlights have always been an important part of the way Tau play. Don't like them? (For some reason) The don't use them. Try it. You will get more dakka. My regular opponents HATE that I can strip cover and make my units hit on 2s. Now I have more places to do that from?!?! Count me in.

You really need to play some games before writing off an army.

 gpfunk wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Anything is better than Looted tank, and new rules nerfed LRBT. It's terrible, it used to be mobile, versatile tank, now it's only role is to put S10 shot once per turn and hope for the best.

At least you have a chance to pen a landraider outside of close combat. Orks only really have Power Klaws.

It's not that it's weak, it doesn't offer variety. Previously good tanks were intentionally nerfed so everyone would be forced to use suits (particularly Riptide) and Markerlights. It's terrible Codex design. OP is right, Tau is the new Tyranids.

If you want to play the codex a different way then you absolutely can. You come to terms with the fact that it isn't the most ZOMG powerful build and you play it to the best of your abilities because you enjoy it. Markerlight spam is probably going to be the competitive build. Guess what the main competitive build is for Chaos Space Marines? Triple Helldrakes. Competitive play generally streamlines things into the most powerful builds possible. For many codexes, it's only one. If you're playing semi-competitive or casual you have more options.

That's the same story for many codexes. You can complain about lack of COMPETITIVE variety, sure. But a great many other codexes currently out have the same problem.

Please show me a tournament winning list that runs triple helldrakes, or even a top 10 list. Do you even list?

 gpfunk wrote:

So, because the codex isn't built in the way you want...it's a crap codex?

Yes.

 felixcat wrote:

No tyranids can win without allies because of psychic buffs - they are really not that bad. I'm not sure Tau can. However, they make a great allied detachment - as they did before the new codex. In fact they are better now in that capacity.

Tau as ally detachment? I'm hesitating here because of the low BS that Tau units have. Here you need synergy to increase the BS (markerlights). But a small ally detachment can hardly bring the markerlights to bear.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Please show me a tournament winning list that runs triple helldrakes, or even a top 10 list. Do you even list?

So is this your argument about Tau being a gakky codex? Or are you just trying to troll? I can show you a list of all the CSM entrants to a major tournament. 3/4 of them run triple helldrakes. It's competitive because point for point the Helldrake offers the best value for power. Markerlights and suits offer the best point for point power in the codex, therefore they are the most competitive build.

It's list optimization. The optimized Tau list is markerlights and suits with firewarriors to support.

I'm not really seeing your point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backfire wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:

So, because the codex isn't built in the way you want...it's a crap codex?

Yes.

Well then, enjoy the next 8 years. There is no help for you as you choose not to adapt to your shiny new codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 felixcat wrote:

No tyranids can win without allies because of psychic buffs - they are really not that bad. I'm not sure Tau can. However, they make a great allied detachment - as they did before the new codex. In fact they are better now in that capacity.

Tau as ally detachment? I'm hesitating here because of the low BS that Tau units have. Here you need synergy to increase the BS (markerlights). But a small ally detachment can hardly bring the markerlights to bear.

They can bring a drone squad or a pathfinder unit. They could also take a support commander that gives rerolls to hit and ignore cover. As long as you stick to twin linking it'll be pretty good.

Actually, since the tau have alot of alpha strike power, do you think we will see tau air superiority lists? I will enjoy watching the local meta change!

 gr1m_dan wrote:
Gpfunk has it spot on.

Instead of spending the last week moaning Backfire why don't you actually get loads of games in and post the reports and how you felt units did instead of "this sucks because of this" etc.

I don't need to. I can read rules, you know. Honestly, you just don't get it: this is not about some stat nerf or price increase, this is about missing rules which were essential in playing the vehicles. It's like if Orks lost Furious charge and Mob rules. You don't NEED to take test games to realize that the army has become something totally different and does not work like the old army and if you loved playing Green Tide, then it does not matter how good Killa Kans or Big Gunz had become, the army you liked is unviable.