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I know it's probably not a good idea to make Arjac Rockfist lead Lukas's Blood Claws (aside from the point cost, I guess it's pretty pointless to put two challenge monsters into the same unit), but just out of curiosity: Lukas's Rebellious special rule says that his squad's Leadership value of 8 cannot be increased by any means. On the other hand, Arjac is Ld 9 and has the Stubborn USR, which in turn "ignores negative Ld modifiers when taking a Morale or Pinning check". So how would you approach this? Ld 8 or 9 for Morale and Pinning?

Ld8 not being increased is not a negative modifier. It is more of a set modifier before negative modifiers. At least that is how I read it.

They would only be Leadership 8, but they would be Stubborn.

Basically, the squad can't use the leadership of anything higher than Lukas.

Interesting.

A modifier, per pg 2, is defined as something that modifies the characteristic by by adding, multiplying or even setting its value.

pg 7 and 63 for says to use the highest Leadership value in the unit for leadership tests.

pg 39 says, unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the independent character. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the IC is with them.

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So, we need to look at this in order of general -> specific.

Stubborn is a general special rule (BRB) that Arjac has and confers to units he joins. However, Lukas is an upgrade for the Blood claws unit. His rules are specific to that unit (codex) and beat the general rules regarding modifying the Leadership above 8. Therefore Morale and Pinning checks should be taken on 8s.

clively wrote:
Interesting.

A modifier, per pg 2, is defined as something that modifies the characteristic by by adding, multiplying or even setting its value.

pg 7 and 63 for says to use the highest Leadership value in the unit for leadership tests.

pg 39 says, unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the independent character. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the IC is with them.

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So, we need to look at this in order of general -> specific.

Stubborn is a general special rule (BRB) that Arjac has and confers to units he joins. However, Lukas is an upgrade for the Blood claws unit. His rules are specific to that unit (codex) and beat the general rules regarding modifying the Leadership above 8. Therefore Morale and Pinning checks should be taken on 8s.

Sound Logic, i'm inclined to agree with you sir. It seems Lukas is a little too much for poor old Arjac.

Yup, agreed. Lukas makes the unit Ld8 but this doesn't stop Stubborn from working otherwise...that 8 value would then ignore any negative modifiers such as losing combat.

Also bear in mind that Arjac keeps Ld9 if he's ever singled out by anything that requires an individual model to test (such as psychic powers like Mind War).