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HQ:
Commander (192)
-Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Drone Controller, Iridium Armor, Target Lock
-2x Markerlight Drones

Troops:
Firewarriors (118)
-12x w/ Shas'ui
Firewarriors (118)
-12x w/ Shas'ui
Firewarriors (118)
-12x w/ Shas'ui

Elites:
Crisis Team (236)
-2x Suits w/ PR, PR, Target Lock (note: this is two separate plasma rifles, not a single twin linked one)
-1x Suit w/ Missile Pod, Target Lock, DC
-6x Markerlight Drones
Crisis Team (236)
-2x Suits w/ PR, PR, Target Lock
-1x Suit w/ Missile Pod, Target Lock, DC
-6x Markerlight Drones
Crisis Team (243)
-3x Suits w/ PR, Fusion Blaster, Target Lock
-6x Markerlight Drones

Heavy Support:
Broadside Team (285)
-2x Broadside w/ Railgun & Target Lock
-1x Broadside w/ Railgun & Drone Controller
-6x Missile Drones
Broadside Team (285)
-2x Broadside w/ Railgun & Target Lock
-1x Broadside w/ Railgun & Drone Controller
-6x Missile Drones


Basically I think that markerlight drones make pathfinders entirely obsolete. 12 points for a T4 4+ save model with the ability to move and fire the markerlights, and a jet move, plus the ability to keep wounds off of your important Crisis Suits. They're cheaper than Pathfinders, more survivable, more mobile, and provide better protection. The downside is BS2 rather than BS3, but with a drone controller that downside is gone.

I also think that now that a suit can take multiple of the same weapon since that restriction is nowhere in the codex completely eclipses the fireknife loadout. Now that Plasma Rifles are the same cost as Missile Pods and you can double up on them I think they're the way to go. Now you have enough AP2 fire, and you still have the missiles you need from the missile drones in the broadside squad. They do very well versus lots of things, and with so many markerlights thanks to the markerlight drones I just mentioned, they'll easily be enough tokens to boost BS when needed, and hey, that'll boost the BS of the crisis suit with the drone controller making all markerlight drones in that squad shoot at BS5 again! How awesome!? (if a squad really needs to die, you know).

The list is also set up so that all the drones in the crisis team can fire at BS5. The model with the drone controller also has a target lock. Yes this restricts it to just two weapons, but it means the squad can fire on a different squad, and the crisis suit with the drone controller can fire on an enemy squad that already has markerlight tokens on it. You can spend those markerlight tokens to increase the BS of the crisis suit with the drone controller, making all drones in the squad shoot at BS5, meaning you can use your BS5 markerlights on a different squad than already has markerlights on it. Therefore you can create a markerlight chain, if you will, to ensure a spread of markerlights all shooting at BS5.

I also think missile-broadsides are a trap. You have enough missiles with just the drones to bring down pretty much any flier. That's 24 S7 shots, so even with a 1/6 chance of hitting thats 4 hits on just the missiles from the drones, not including the TL railgun and TL Smart MIssile System. I honestly don't see the need for any skyfire with so much dakka and now that markerlights can increase the ballistic skill of snap shots. It's the AP1 I think that really matters. Also S8 AP1 can still insta-gib most mean enemy MEQ/TEQ model, and is huge versus Razorspam.

The one downside to this list that I think I'm lacking is an Aegis Defense line. Not for the quad-gun mind you (there's enough S7AP4 fire already), but for the cover. This army cannot survive on an open battlefield and with the prevalence of defense lines, at least in my local store there has been less terrain on battlefields now than there used to be. Anyone have any thoughts about this?

Oh, and this is technically 1851 points, but I don't know what I want to shave. Suggestions? (I could go down a Firewarrior)

Thats a good point on the dual weapon equipment, there doesnt seem to be a rule about it so yeah, totally legit, and makes sense since when twin linking its cost is only 1/3 the cost of a new one.

Broads Im not sure yet about railguns vs missile pods. will have to heavy playtest the two to see what is preferable, as well as which is better to have interceptor and which is better to give skyfire.

You should through in atleast one drone controller into the suit squads though, give them that BS3 and they will be far more useful.

There's a drone controller in every squad. The one crisis team without it will be joined by the commander.

 Lotus wrote:
HQ:
Commander (192)
-Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Drone Controller, Iridium Armor, Target Lock
-2x Markerlight Drones

Do include the Cadre FB or an ethereal; they're the force multipliers in this book, so take one!

I've reconsidered this, given what's going on below

 Lotus wrote:
Troops:
Firewarriors (118)
-12x w/ Shas'ui
Firewarriors (118)
-12x w/ Shas'ui
Firewarriors (118)
-12x w/ Shas'ui

I'd go 9 x 4. I like a troop per 500 points, plus one. 6e is so very objective based.

 Lotus wrote:
Elites:
Crisis Team (236)
-2x Suits w/ PR, PR, Target Lock (note: this is two separate plasma rifles, not a single twin linked one)

1. On the dual gun, nonTwin-Link thing, I suggest you buy *3* guns, one Twin-Linked PR and a 3rd PR. RAW, you can get away with this too, but I think your opponents will swallow it a lot better than the 2 separate guns assertion. Old 'dex hangover will prolly result in heated arguments and a general bad feeling toward you.

2. Why have Target Locks anyway? At best, 4 shots at one unit, to kill 4 MEqs? If they Fall Back, they'll be back with 9" of however far back they go. Still plenty close to harry your team. My set up, TL-PR + PR still gives you 4 shots (at 12") but two of 'em at TLink.

Again, now that I see what you're doing with the MarkerLight Chain shenanigans, I understand the Target Locks.

 Lotus wrote:
-6x Markerlight Drones
Crisis Team (236)
-2x Suits w/ PR, PR, Target Lock
-1x Suit w/ Missile Pod, Target Lock, DC
-6x Markerlight Drones
Crisis Team (243)
-3x Suits w/ PR, Fusion Blaster, Target Lock
-6x Markerlight Drones

That's a lot of MarkerDs. I may rethink my lists.

 Lotus wrote:
Heavy Support:
Broadside Team (285)
-2x Broadside w/ Railgun & Target Lock
-1x Broadside w/ Railgun & Drone Controller
-6x Missile Drones
Broadside Team (285)
-2x Broadside w/ Railgun & Target Lock
-1x Broadside w/ Railgun & Drone Controller
-6x Missile Drones

No signature toys for Skyfire support ?

 Lotus wrote:
Basically I think that markerlight drones make pathfinders entirely obsolete. 12 points for a T4 4+ save model with the ability to move and fire the markerlights, and a jet move, plus the ability to keep wounds off of your important Crisis Suits. They're cheaper than Pathfinders, more survivable, more mobile, and provide better protection. The downside is BS2 rather than BS3, but with a drone controller that downside is gone.

I also think that now that a suit can take multiple of the same weapon since that restriction is nowhere in the codex completely eclipses the fireknife loadout. Now that Plasma Rifles are the same cost as Missile Pods and you can double up on them I think they're the way to go.

Be prepared for a *lot* of resistance to this idea.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's going to go against the grain for a lot of opponents. And there's *some* room to argue against it, but no, I don't want to debate it. Good luck with it, honestly.

 Lotus wrote:
The list is also set up so that all the drones in the crisis team can fire at BS5. The model with the drone controller also has a target lock. Yes this restricts it to just two weapons, but it means the squad can fire on a different squad, and the crisis suit with the drone controller can fire on an enemy squad that already has markerlight tokens on it. You can spend those markerlight tokens to increase the BS of the crisis suit with the drone controller, making all drones in the squad shoot at BS5, meaning you can use your BS5 markerlights on a different squad than already has markerlights on it.

Wow. I think that actually works.

 Lotus wrote:
I also think missile-broadsides are a trap. You have enough missiles with just the drones to bring down pretty much any flier. That's 24 S7 shots, so even with a 1/6 chance of hitting thats 4 hits on just the missiles from the drones, not including the TL railgun and TL Smart MIssile System. I honestly don't see the need for any skyfire with so much dakka and now that markerlights can increase the ballistic skill of snap shots. It's the AP1 I think that really matters. Also S8 AP1 can still insta-gib most mean enemy MEQ/TEQ model, and is huge versus Razorspam.

The one downside to this list that I think I'm lacking is an Aegis Defense line. Not for the quad-gun mind you (there's enough S7AP4 fire already), but for the cover. This army cannot survive on an open battlefield and with the prevalence of defense lines, at least in my local store there has been less terrain on battlefields now than there used to be. Anyone have any thoughts about this?

Oh, and this is technically 1851 points, but I don't know what I want to shave. Suggestions? (I could go down a Firewarrior)

For the ADL, one Crisis Suit out ought to pay for it.

Looks like a complicated, filthy list. I don't see you making friends with it. For the MarkerLight chain shenanigan, nor the dual gun interpretation. I'd *LOVE* to hear how it goes over with your local LGS crowd. Pretty please, keep me informed by PM. I'm strongly considering pissing some people off on my end of the world with your ideas.

Love it. 2 points:

1) No point in Drone controllers in broadside units, they have no effect on missile drones (pg68 codex). You might want to reconsider the missile drones at this point

2) I use the dual plasma suits in my list. They are awesome. The rules are pretty clear that you can buy either, I just reckon at some point its going to get FAQed and all my fun goes down the pan :(

Personally I would remove the broadsides and put some tanks in but thats me. Also an ethereal because LD10 and extra shots are awesome. Also some kroot because they are cheap and brilliant (especially with the ethereal!). Other than that, I think its a great list.

1- 'ui upgrade on the FW is a complete waste of points. you drop 10 points for nothing. If you took drone controller or something - then it would be worth it.

2- You are spending a lot of points to have a lot of focused fire. If you want to spend the points - split up some of the marker lights so that the troops all have 2. Yes, target lock lets you split fire.

3- TOO MANY DRONES!!!! holy cow....your are basically relying entirely on drones and if you are going to do that - lose the ones from the suits and get masses of FWs with DC & 2 marker drones. Yes, drones ad to the survivability of your suits, but what is going to kill you is any template weapon. Also, if you do JSJ, that many models is going to be tougher to pull off

4-You only have 3 scoring units. If you had the ability to easily wipe your opponent, then I would say it is fine. The thing is that you have nothing that really screams tabling. Yes, in the BGNT mission you have 3 more. Your army falls to all Anti-Vehicle and since everything is identical, there is no real need to pick targets - just focus fire at the closet squads and keep walking. Yes, spam is doable...but when it comes down to it - anything with flamers or templates will chew through you and leave you hurting

In theory your list is both extremely potent and a huge point sink. until you table it, this is one of those lists that you cannot really tell if it is worth it or not. So in all honesty - go to your FLGS, any person there - challenge them. Played them before? play again. Got 2 hours - play. Until you have played verse a lot of armies and played them a lot - the success will be hard to tell.

....yes, all lists have to stand up to being played - but almost all lists can be looked at and either will play wonderfully or not just by the list. Your list has that air of unease to it since noone has done something like this. so please- - prove me wrong and own people constantly with this.....it would be nice to see

Well, the dual weapon interpretation is questionable. We won't allow it in our RTTs.
I'd drop one Crisis team and add a Riptide. This guy is too good to be left out. If you take him cheap enough, you could squeeze in another troop unit.

 Amaraxis wrote:
1- 'ui upgrade on the FW is a complete waste of points. you drop 10 points for nothing. If you took drone controller or something - then it would be worth it.

I agree - Ethereals all the way!

 Amaraxis wrote:

2- You are spending a lot of points to have a lot of focused fire. If you want to spend the points - split up some of the marker lights so that the troops all have 2. Yes, target lock lets you split fire.

Please correct me if im wrong but putting the drones into the firewarrior teams would mean that the squad would also have to shoot at the same target as the two drones? If so I feel its more of a benefit to keep them with the suits.

 Amaraxis wrote:

3- TOO MANY DRONES!!!! holy cow....your are basically relying entirely on drones and if you are going to do that - lose the ones from the suits and get masses of FWs with DC & 2 marker drones. Yes, drones ad to the survivability of your suits, but what is going to kill you is any template weapon. Also, if you do JSJ, that many models is going to be tougher to pull off

Masses of FW with drones increases your kill points. The leader with DC also costs you more points. As above I think they also have to shoot at the same target so what if your markering a tank?
Yes template weapons hurt. They also hurt pathfinders (alot more if its a flamer), and FWs. Infact I would say that templates are a serious problem for tau overall, but you need the markerlights, and the only way to get them without forgeworld are pathfinders or drones (and vehicles but not in great numbers). But yes JSJ is more difficult.

 Amaraxis wrote:

4-You only have 3 scoring units. If you had the ability to easily wipe your opponent, then I would say it is fine. The thing is that you have nothing that really screams tabling. Yes, in the BGNT mission you have 3 more. Your army falls to all Anti-Vehicle and since everything is identical, there is no real need to pick targets - just focus fire at the closet squads and keep walking. Yes, spam is doable...but when it comes down to it - anything with flamers or templates will chew through you and leave you hurting

I have serious problems with the new codexes anti-vehicle. Like above I say templates are gunna hurt in almost any situation for tau.
Don't get me wrong I think the list does indeed have flaws (as does any list) for instance having deadly units that are going to get shot at with markerlights, something we need to be effective is just asking for trouble, but I think its pretty good and pretty mobile.

Honestly the broadsides and missile drones are where most of my damage output come from. 12 missile drones is 24 St7AP4 shots, and with the markerlights they can be BS5 pretty easily, and can even be BS2-3 versus fliers pretty easily thanks to markerlights again.

I would think that the drone controller does affect missile drones. The summary just says "drones." I know the earlier entry takes precedence so now RAW I would play it like they didn't, but I think that was just an oversight and written before they put in the other drones and no one changed it. I could swap those 2 DCs out for target locks or something else and be under the point limit.

As for taking 4 squads of 9 as opposed to 3 squads of 12, I did it with fewer squads for the purposes of markerlights. Remember it's a bonus for the squad, so the larger the squads the more effective the bonus. It's also why I didn't split up my broadsides into 3 squads of 2. Really I want to take another full squad, but the markerlight shenanigans and broadside missile drones are the crux of the list. I wanted to get a feel for their effectiveness, so I only took 3 squads of firewarriors to fit them in.

I took the 'ui upgrade solely for the boost to leadership. LD7 is terrible. They will take leadership checks.It's the difference between you having a scoring unit and them having a victory point late game. If these guys break, they fall off the table almost immediately with no chance to regroup. I'll try it with and without it, but I didn't want my only scoring units running and being lost the moment they take a leadership check. I only take this upgrade on larger sized squads, like 10-12. If I did drop it to 4 squads of 9 I wouldn't bother, but I don't want to risk my full size squad dying from 3 unsaved wounds.

When you say too many drones, remember that all the missile drones are actually very efficient damage dealing units with also great survivability and mobility. They aren't a points sink, but rather a primary source of damage. Also, with the decrease in drone costs remember that all 20 of those markerlight drones cost 240 points. That's 13% of the points in this list. When you factor in that they boost the BS from 3 to 5 pretty much army wide, and have the ability to remove cover so your AP1-2 matters, it's huge. That's a 5/3, or 1.67x force multiplier. 1610 x 1.67 = 2683 (edit: yes I know it doesn't really work that way, but it's a nice abstraction to think about). Yes, I do believe that's worth the drones and target locks. Heck with the boost to BS, going from a twin-linked system to a target lock is zero net points cost and you still increase your chance to hit thanks to BS5.

Unfortunately I don't have the opportunity to play a whole lot. I have everything I need for this list except for all the drones. I'm going to have to scratch build them all, and I don't have enough of them. 32 scratch built drones is a lot.


edit:

OOOOOH! IDEA! Definitely shoe-horn in an Aegis Defense line. Pretty much always go to ground with your firewarriors. Use excess markerlight tokens to boost their BS back to normal or better than normal levels. 2++ scoring models with lots of S5AP5 shots right where you want them with the only downside being a reliance on markerlight tokens in an army with 20 markerlights doesn't seem to be a bad thing.

Heres what I would do. (1750 list as thats what I play)

HQ:
Same Commander

Ethereal with Beacon.

Elites:

Same 2 dual plasma suit teams.

Remove the fusion/plasma team and make them the commanders bodyguard instead. (looses a guy but meh)

Riptide with inteceptor and Ion accellerator.

Troops:

3 x 10 man squads of Kroot with sniper ammo. (maybe put into 2 squads of 15)
12 man FW squad.

Fast Attack:
6 Man pathfinder squad with the recon drone

Heavy support:
Ionhead with BSF and Dpods

Skyray with BSF and Dpods.



My plan would be to run or infiltrate the kroot up the board, playing aggressively, same with the Ethereal and FW squad, giving LD 10 for hopefully most of the squads. The pathfinders and Ethereal get as far forward as possible allowing for the 3 suit teams to drop in where needed.
Riptide, and Ionhead put on pressure with large blasts or taking out marines and the Skyray alphas some tank and then markerlights more stuff.

Not sure on how well the Kroot/FW teams would deal with first turn shooting but hopefully it will be ok. I'll play a game some time with it and let you know what happens.

 Lotus wrote:
I would think that the drone controller does affect missile drones. The summary just says "drones."

No, it says very specifically, "All GDs, Marker Ds, and Sniper Drones .... " MDs got left out.

So, you're back to the MarkerLight Chain Shenanigans.

It only says that in one of the two entries for drone controllers. The other, the one in the reference section, just says drones. Thats why I said what I said, with the full entry being the one that mattered so RAW youre right, but I think an errata/faq is coming.

I understand the railguns, but I would have that modular. Under pretty much every circumstance but av13-14 the missiles are going to be far superior. 12 inch deployment on both sides means your 36" range will nail everything. Could you point me to the page that lists specifically drones being able to shoot heavy weapons as though they hadn't moved? Or do they just take snap shots?

I need to work my own list to include more troops, but I also need to spend time on the table playing it. When I pronounce doom and gloom it's mostly compared to what we had, and what little options we have going forward.

As a response to the recommendation of a Riptide, I honestly can't say that it's performance is going to be that amazing. The thing about Tau is that in order to justify the point costs we've gotta get our stuff hidden behind cover. The kind of cover that prevents their counter-firing. This guy's tough, but he's also big. 5 wounds can drop turn one easy.

Anbutou wrote:
Could you point me to the page that lists specifically drones being able to shoot heavy weapons as though they hadn't moved? Or do they just take snap shots?

Drones are Jet Pack Infantry (Tau codex pg 33). Jet Pack Infantry have Relentless (among other things, BRB pg 47). Relentless (BRB pg 41) allows the model to shoot heavy weapons as if stationary (among other benefits).

Just a note: Drones are counted as Non-scoring and Non-denial, doesnt that mean they dont give any points for being killed?

At least on how their rules work for IC is when the character dies, the unit is destroyed even if the drones survive.

Anbutou wrote:
I understand the railguns, but I would have that modular. Under pretty much every circumstance but av13-14 the missiles are going to be far superior. 12 inch deployment on both sides means your 36" range will nail everything. Could you point me to the page that lists specifically drones being able to shoot heavy weapons as though they hadn't moved? Or do they just take snap shots?

I need to work my own list to include more troops, but I also need to spend time on the table playing it. When I pronounce doom and gloom it's mostly compared to what we had, and what little options we have going forward.

As a response to the recommendation of a Riptide, I honestly can't say that it's performance is going to be that amazing. The thing about Tau is that in order to justify the point costs we've gotta get our stuff hidden behind cover. The kind of cover that prevents their counter-firing. This guy's tough, but he's also big. 5 wounds can drop turn one easy.

Not if you throw Shadowsun and two Shielded Missile Drones into the unit. That's also Majority T6

Dracoknight wrote:
Just a note: Drones are counted as Non-scoring and Non-denial, doesnt that mean they dont give any points for being killed?

At least on how their rules work for IC is when the character dies, the unit is destroyed even if the drones survive.

Drop pods don't score and don't deny. Yet, still a Kill Point. C'mon, dude. Drones are a unit, like any other. They're a KP.

Drones are most definitely a KP. The thing about them is if you lose the unit they're attached to, you can then play hide and seek with the drones and until those drones die, that unit's KP's aren't awarded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as the ADL goes, I'd bring it, and if you find the terrain lacking, break it up into chunks and use it as area ruin terrain so that both of you get the same amount (So that you're not just freely getting and ADL) but the board still has a bit of terrain on it. Nothing quite as boring as a lot of high str low ap fire and then game over.