Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I saw it mentioned that one could use a scout move for BA Baal Predators. My understanding is that they can be placed anywhere on the table outside of 12 inches form the enemy units at the start of the game after both sides deploy normally. So, in theory, you could start 13 inches from enemy units and then move 12 (fast vehicle) and fire your flame storm template or assault cannons.

Do I have this right?

I have a game this week and want to make sure it's right before I go and try it out.

 Elindiel wrote:


So, I saw it mentioned that one could use a scout move for BA Baal Predators. My understanding is that they can be placed anywhere on the table outside of 12 inches form the enemy units at the start of the game after both sides deploy normally. So, in theory, you could start 13 inches from enemy units and then move 12 (fast vehicle) and fire your flame storm template or assault cannons.

Do I have this right?

I have a game this week and want to make sure it's right before I go and try it out.

You're getting scout mixed up with infiltrate, and it still isn't quite right for infiltrate. Scout is a redeploy, so basically you get to redeploy the model 12" from its starting position, there a few more restrictions but these can all be found on page 41 of the rulebook.

What you are describing is the Infiltrate usr and not Scout. Scout lets you redeploy said unit up to 12" from their initial point.
Also fast vehicles can only move 6" in the movement phase they only alter how many weapons you are allowed to shot and let you move up to 12" in the shooting phase instead of 6".

 Shadox wrote:
What you are describing is the Infiltrate usr and not Scout. Scout lets you redeploy said unit up to 12" from their initial point.
Also fast vehicles can only move 6" in the movement phase they only alter how many weapons you are allowed to shot and let you move up to 12" in the shooting phase instead of 6".

The Bhaal is fast and can therefore move 12" and shoot 2 weapons.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Shadox wrote:
What you are describing is the Infiltrate usr and not Scout. Scout lets you redeploy said unit up to 12" from their initial point.
Also fast vehicles can only move 6" in the movement phase they only alter how many weapons you are allowed to shot and let you move up to 12" in the shooting phase instead of 6".

The Bhaal is fast and can therefore move 12" and shoot 2 weapons.

doh!
Sure they can. Seems I played too much with the old Tau vehicle multi-trackers...

This Scout move can still be beneficial, for example redeploying your tank out of line of sight, or from cover into the open so you can get moving.

The Fast nature of the tanks also lets you get shorter ranged weapons into range, and actually shoot those weapons even though you move.

All that said, however, getting the Flamestorm cannon into range is a challenge--same goes for Land Raiders, apparently, which is making me assemble mine with Hurricane bolter sponsons instead...

Ok !

Thank you for helping me grasp this one. In five years playing six armies I never had an occasion before to use scout or infiltrate. (odd right)


So, I can deploy as normal and then (with previously mentioned USR restrictions) redeploy within 12 inches of my original deploy spot. Then as the tank is fast, I can move 12 and fire. Effectively giving the thing a 30+ inch range if you deploy it 6 inches from table edge. (6+12 +12 move)

@ Panther--> Agreed!

I too prefer the Crusader for ti's ranged capability. Back in 5th, a crusader full of BA Assault/DC marines and a sang priest was all you really needed.

Also worth noting, is that Scout confers Outflank as well. If you feel you can hold your Baals in reserve you can get good results bringing them in the backfield to wipe out enemy backfield scoring units or by getting side/rear armor on enemy tanks. I've never used the flamer Baal, but I imagine that reserving them is the best way to actually get in range to fire them.

 tomjoad wrote:
Also worth noting, is that Scout confers Outflank as well. If you feel you can hold your Baals in reserve you can get good results bringing them in the backfield to wipe out enemy backfield scoring units or by getting side/rear armor on enemy tanks. I've never used the flamer Baal, but I imagine that reserving them is the best way to actually get in range to fire them.

The scout move of the Baal is brutal, esp if you're going first. Start on the line, scout 12, move 12, your in range of everything with the AC, and HB you should've put on it. I'd say this is one of the best anti-personel vehicles in the game.

Wow, Scouting Baals are brutal, especially against horde armies. You can move up to 24 inches in one turn if you go 1st. Would be an absolute nightmare for my friends Nids...

Why do you want to get close to Nids? Keep the dakka Baal with the infantry support and back up and shoot.

 g0atsticks wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
Also worth noting, is that Scout confers Outflank as well. If you feel you can hold your Baals in reserve you can get good results bringing them in the backfield to wipe out enemy backfield scoring units or by getting side/rear armor on enemy tanks. I've never used the flamer Baal, but I imagine that reserving them is the best way to actually get in range to fire them.

The scout move of the Baal is brutal, esp if you're going first. Start on the line, scout 12, move 12, your in range of everything with the AC, and HB you should've put on it. I'd say this is one of the best anti-personel vehicles in the game.

Could this work even if you keep it in reserve? Come in with outflank, once your opponent has gotten his Troops choices onto their objectives, and then blast them with the AC and HB combos? Theoretically coming onto the board in this manner would also allow you to minimize the side/rear armor access to your opponent's tank hunters?

I've never used the Dakka Baal, but it's starting to appeal. Tie up a corner of the board, get that Linebreaker point, and shoot troops. Sounds solid.

Why out flank them? Wouldn't they be better shooting for the whole game?

Martel732 wrote:
Why out flank them? Wouldn't they be better shooting for the whole game?

Are they going to show their little heads? HBs go 36", right? Same for Assault Cannon? So, I can move up a little, or shoot them if they advance? I mostly play IG, Eldar and Dark Eldar, so they're tricksy (or cowardly, depending on your perspective). Definitely if I was fighting Orks or Tyranids it would be better to just shoot the whole game.

Do you think it has a place in a TAC list, though? Is there enough damage I can do with those Str 5 (some rending) shots if they DON'T expose their troops or infantry?

Martel732 wrote:
Why out flank them? Wouldn't they be better shooting for the whole game?

It'd possibly be useful to outflank them if you take the flamestorm cannon or if your opponent has a lot of hard AV counters like Lascannons or Dark Lances and such.

Avoid heavy AT fire and roast a squad off an objective? Count me in.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why out flank them? Wouldn't they be better shooting for the whole game?

Are they going to show their little heads? HBs go 36", right? Same for Assault Cannon? So, I can move up a little, or shoot them if they advance? I mostly play IG, Eldar and Dark Eldar, so they're tricksy (or cowardly, depending on your perspective). Definitely if I was fighting Orks or Tyranids it would be better to just shoot the whole game.

Do you think it has a place in a TAC list, though? Is there enough damage I can do with those Str 5 (some rending) shots if they DON'T expose their troops or infantry?

Assualt Cannon is 24".STR 6 Rending. I use them to outflank, but always start them on the board. Personally in BA if your taking a fast attack, its better to go ahead and use the T5 bikes. The Baal Pred is good, I feel like the bikes are more surgical and stout when it boils down to it.

I hate Flame Baals outflanking. They turn up, get into range because they're fast, ignore your ADL quad gun as they are front armour 13 (most you can do is glance - 4 shots glancing on a 6 won't stop it), then crisp anyone behind the adl as they ignore cover too.

They can be an MEQ players worst nightmare. If they turn up

The Flame Baal is really pretty weak in this edition.. Due to getting hit in CC so easily, its really hard to get more than one flame off with it as it'll get punched to death right after almost every time. Plus with premeasuring being available now your opponent will never bunch up if he knows your Baal is gonna be flaming him next turn, so it won't even get huge amounts of kills (maybe 3-4 max against a properly spaced squad).

It is true that you can get brutal t1 grilling-time from quite far away with the help of Scout, but this'll only happen against an unprepared opponent who bunched, and rarely will they fall for it again.

 Jabbdo wrote:
The Flame Baal is really pretty weak in this edition.. Due to getting hit in CC so easily, its really hard to get more than one flame off with it as it'll get punched to death right after almost every time. Plus with premeasuring being available now your opponent will never bunch up if he knows your Baal is gonna be flaming him next turn, so it won't even get huge amounts of kills (maybe 3-4 max against a properly spaced squad).

It is true that you can get brutal t1 grilling-time from quite far away with the help of Scout, but this'll only happen against an unprepared opponent who bunched, and rarely will they fall for it again.

You don't really need more than one flame to do enough damage to justify it's cost.
It wipes marines off by handful - this can get it's points back in one shot.
If your opponant is anyone other than marines (eldar/d/eldar/tau etc) then st6 is good enough for instant death too.
If your opponant has kept things back to deal with your baal, then you've affected his game plan.
It not only clears the adl of anything that could potentially use it and thus save other units, it's also something that must be dealt with immediately - if you don't kill it it will get another turn/burn. This also saves fire at something else - if you are advancing, then you get to advance another turn before you start attracting all the enemy firepower.

If you're outflanking - even you don't know when/where you can attack, so your opponant really can't prepare for it

Wow! This sounds pretty effective, actually! I still am hearing both "Outflank" and "Start on the board and zoom up" though. I guess this is why we play the game. I don't have one of these kits, but I am thinking that I am going to have to get one.

Dang it. And here I thought my BA army was almost finished. Now I've got to get drop pods, bikes, a Baal Predator...

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Wow! This sounds pretty effective, actually! I still am hearing both "Outflank" and "Start on the board and zoom up" though. I guess this is why we play the game. I don't have one of these kits, but I am thinking that I am going to have to get one.

Dang it. And here I thought my BA army was almost finished. Now I've got to get drop pods, bikes, a Baal Predator...

Well the thing with a Baal is, you really need at least 2, or at least 2 more AV13 tanks on the field, otherwise it will just get picked off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Wow! This sounds pretty effective, actually! I still am hearing both "Outflank" and "Start on the board and zoom up" though. I guess this is why we play the game. I don't have one of these kits, but I am thinking that I am going to have to get one.

Dang it. And here I thought my BA army was almost finished. Now I've got to get drop pods, bikes, a Baal Predator...

Well the thing with a Baal is, you really need at least 2, or at least 2 more AV13 tanks on the field, otherwise it will just get picked off.

Agreed,

I run 2 Baal Preds right now and am working for a third. They also make fantastic escorts for Vindicators as they block the side armor if used properly.

 Elindiel wrote:
Agreed,

I run 2 Baal Preds right now and am working for a third. They also make fantastic escorts for Vindicators as they block the side armor if used properly.

Or go mad like I did once, and field 3 Preds, 3 Baal Preds, and 3 Vindis at 2K that is one wall of death not to be trifled with

Now, if you were to say that you ran that list against a Guard infantry mob based army....that would have been hilarious.

I have the models save one Baal. I might just try that. The last time I came close to that was in an APOC game with a Stormlord super heavy tank flanked by two LR Crusaders. Slow moving wall of infantry death.

Flamestorm is too short for reliability... now if they get torrent in future

as a dakka ship they are good outflankers.

On a completely random note, I think that the Baal Pred with Flamestorm cannon is the best looking tank that's available for Marines.

 Elindiel wrote:
Now, if you were to say that you ran that list against a Guard infantry mob based army....that would have been hilarious.

I have the models save one Baal. I might just try that. The last time I came close to that was in an APOC game with a Stormlord super heavy tank flanked by two LR Crusaders. Slow moving wall of infantry death.

Can't remember who I faced, I basically tried to fit as much AV13 into one list as possible, just as an experiment. I may well have had some Furioso's in there as well, I'll try find the list.....

 Elindiel wrote:
Agreed,

I run 2 Baal Preds right now and am working for a third. They also make fantastic escorts for Vindicators as they block the side armor if used properly.

Cool. Well, I'm already getting geared up to spend money, so why stop with one?

I've got a Razorback with TL LC, a Predator Annihilator, a Land Raider Crusader, and a plain old Rhino. Three of these would be Fast, like the Baal would be, so would adding one to this collection of vehicles (maybe also with a Vindicator, which I also am keen to try out due to its high STR weapon) work?

I agree about how cool the Flamestorm cannon ones look, too, which might prompt me to make one of each type. Wall of armoured death actually appeals to me, and it might actually let me run some Jump Marines, hopping along behind to grab objectives or attack people instead of hopping off alone in front to be destroyed.

Agreed, The flamestorm Baal looks sweet. I do not use that variant however. I go up against too many CSM units with power fists and meltas for it to be practical.

@ Panther- I would say go with whatever makes you happy ! If you are wanting to build a cool fluff army then that's awesome. If you are wanting to be competitive then that constrains your list just a bit. Personally, I buy what I like and try my best to make it dance as I need it to. I added the Vindicator to my army because 1: they look sweet and 2: they are a nice hard counter to the large LARGE units of CSM plague marines I regularly have to take out. I feel that the dakka Baal is well priced for the amount of damage one can do with it. My two dakka Baals glanced a CSM land raider to death last game. It's all in how you use it. Best of luck!

There is of course this option....




.... for the undecided amongst us.