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I'm currently working on building a 2k DA army list based on the one on this forum (Which is a good read for those interested in bike armies.) http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/01/26/guest-editorial-on-ravenwing-at-tshft-part-2-by-jeremy-veysseire/#comment-101316
I have changed it however by removing one of the bike squads and replacing it with another Black knight squad, and taking less power weapons and upgrades to fit in more models.
I'm looking for opinions on the armies scoring ability with only have 4 bike squads as well as any other views on its efficiency.

HQ – Sammael 200pts
HQ – Librarian – Mastery Level 1, Auspex, Bike 90pts
HQ* – Ravenwing Command Squad – Champion, Apothecary, Dakka standard bearer, Grenade Launcher. 220pts
Total 510 pts

Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Plasmaguns, Multimelta. Sergeant
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Flamers, Multimelta. Sergeant
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta. Sergeant
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta. Sergeant
Total 984 pts

Fast Att – Ravenwing Black Knights – 6x 2 Grenade Launchers, 252 pts
Fast Att – Ravenwing Black Knights – 6x 2 Grenade Launchers, 252 pts
total 504 pts

Army total 1998

Justifications & ideas:
My main opposition will be MEQ armies, for which the BK's are an ideal match-up.
2 BK's will also give more strength in cc, for those times when you must absolutely charge with a bike army, or get an enemy off an objective.
Space wolves will be a very common enemy, and they will spam JotWW, this is the reason for the librarian (Also to add wounds to the command squad t protect the banner). It is also the reason he is only level 1, as SW's rune weapons will stop most powers.
If the librarian is not needed then a dark shroud may be added instead.

I might be wrong, and I dont have my DA codex in front of me (so going off of battlescribe), but i think you are spending 40 extra points on your ravenwing attack squads. Are they veteran sergeants, thus explaing my discrepancy?

Either way, I'd try to get that darkshroud in there. maybe something like

Sam
Libby
RW Cmd squad with apothecary, dakka banner, champ

RW attack squad, w/ 2x melta, atk bike w/MM ...x2
RW attack squad, w/ 2x flamer, atk bike w/mm
RW attack squad, w/ 2x plasma, atk bike w/mm

5 black knights, 1x rad gl
6x black knights 2x rad gl
darkshroud

just a thought, but i understand if you wanna keep the vet sarges (assuming thats where the extra points are)

Sorry I should have been more clear, yes they are veteran sergeants, so I'm pretty sure the points are right.
The darkshroud would be a good addition I agree, but would it be worth losing the librarian, or 2 Black knights (which will have to be grenade launchers if taking on from each squad) for, that I don't know. They are the only real options to get the 80 points needed.
Does anyone have any experience with darkshrouds they'd be willing to share?

What do you do if you meet a flyer list? What if it's helldrakes? If you're looking at a 2k list you need to at least consider the possibility ...

Check out the link in my first post on how a similar list handled flyers in a tournament.

Of course If I come across a 9 flyer Necron list then it will be difficult, but it would be the same for any other army, with a few dedicated anti air units or otherwise.

However I think that with 8 twin linked plasma talons as well as 8 melta weapons, the list would still be able to focus fire flyers down.
Add to this that flyers are not very agile. Being limited to a single 90 degree turn and at least an 18' move vs an army that can all travel 24 means it may be difficult a lot of the time for the flyer to do much damage once it gets on the board.
Also with scout move and the mobility of bikes, an army comprised of flyers would quickly find themselves facing overwhelming odds on the ground, letting the bikes take out each unit piecemeal.

TLDR: flyers are imo not too much of an issue for this list: twin linked weapons, mobility, and an easier time alpha striking ground forces would allow it to still be competitive.

Since posting my proposed list, my main opponent has decided to invest in a storm talon and 3 vendettas as allies. - making any future game without AA a chore. Keeping a pure ravenwing list at this point is impossible due to the poor flyers the DA codex has available, so I plan on adding Mortis-Contemptor dreads to provide the support I need.

HQ – Sammael 200pts
HQ – Librarian – Mastery Level 1, Bike 85pts
HQ* – Ravenwing Command Squad – Champion, Apothecary, Dakka standard bearer, Grenade Launcher. 220pts
HQ* – Ravenwing Command Squad – 120pts
Total 625 pts

Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 4x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Plasmaguns, Multimelta. Sergeant w/ Meltla bombs
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 4x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Flamers, Multimelta. Sergeant w/ Meltla bombs
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 4x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta. Sergeant w/ Meltla bombs
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 4x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta. Sergeant w/ Meltla bombs
Total 788 pts

Fast Att – Ravenwing Black Knights – 3x – 1 Grenade Launcher,
Total 126 pts

Heavy Support – Mortis-Contemptor Dreadnought – Kheres Assault Cannon x2, CML, Extra Armour
Heavy Support – Mortis-Contemptor Dreadnought – Kheres Assault Cannon x2, CML, Extra Armour
Total 460 pts

Army total 1999

My scoring units have lost some of their durability which my be an issue, but the list still has 8 scoring units available to it.
6 black knights have been removed, and one squad has been moved to become a Ravenwing Command, saving 6 pts (!!!)

Kheres cannons have been taken due to being bay far and away the best all-round weapon available.
However depending on how well the 24 stationary range works against air, they may be replaced with 1 pair of auto cannons, 1 pair of las cannons.

I'm not sure if it'll be any use to you but the new Dark Angels FAQ allows Ravenwing Command Squads to take 2 addition members. As you have two Ravenwing Command Squads, it might be worth looking into

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180051a_Dark_Angels_v1.1A_APRIL13.pdf

Page 96 – Ravenwing Command Squad, options.
Add:
“• The Ravenwing Command Squad may purchase up to two
additional Ravenwing Black
Knights……………………………………………..40 pts / model”
Change the first bullet point to:
“• One Ravenwing Black Knight may take a bannerfrom the
following list:
- Ravenwing Company Banner*...........................................15 pts”
- Revered Standard................................................................25 pts”
- Alternatively, the may take a bannerfrom the Sacred Standards
section of the wargearlist.”

Thanks for the heads up Voodoo, I was still using the old FAQ, with that in mind I guess I'll alter the list to this. (At least until they churn out another FAQ to alter it)

-Removed Black Knights Squad, points used to add members to command squads.
-Dropped the extra armour on the dreads and a few melta bombs to get the extra points needed.

HQ – Sammael 200pts
HQ – Librarian – Mastery Level 1, Bike 85pts
HQ* – Ravenwing Command Squad – +2 Knights, Champion, Grenade Launcher. Apothecary, Dakka standard bearer, 300pts
HQ* – Ravenwing Command Squad – +2 Knights, Champion, Grenade Launcher 205pts
Total 790 pts

Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 4x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Plasmaguns, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 4x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Flamers, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 4x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant w/ Meltla bombs
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 4x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant w/ Meltla bombs
Total 778 pts

Heavy Support – Mortis-Contemptor Dreadnought – Kheres Assault Cannon x2, CML,
Heavy Support – Mortis-Contemptor Dreadnought – Kheres Assault Cannon x2, CML,
Total 430 pts

Army total 1998

Any suggestions for this list?

Does anyone have any advice when it comes to Mortis-Contemptor dreads? The kheres cannon seems to be the best, but the range could limit anti air capability. Anyone found this to be a problem?
I'm planning on marching them into the middle of the board turn one and then hold ground as long as needed.

Also does anyone see any issues with the RAS being only 4 man?

Thanks

Honestly, I think you have all of your basis covered decently. However, with the 4 man RAS + the Vet Sarge I think you are wasting 40pts with those. 4 man strong RAS will go down quick if targeted correctly but 4 6 men strong units will be much harder to break. I'd say to get rid of two Knights and the Vet Sarge to make your 4 RAS benefit more from the Dakka Banner.

Thanks for the input. I'm going to go with this list for now. May invest in more black knights later depending on how I find the mortis dreads work with the reast of the army.

HQ – Sammael
HQ – Librarian – Mastery Level 1, Bike
HQ* – Ravenwing Command Squad – +2 Knights, Champion, Grenade Launcher. Apothecary, Dakka standard bearer, 300pts
Total 585 pts

Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Plasmaguns, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Flamers, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant
Total 984 pts

Heavy Support – Mortis-Contemptor Dreadnought – Kheres Assault Cannon x2, CML,
Heavy Support – Mortis-Contemptor Dreadnought – Kheres Assault Cannon x2, CML,
Total 430 pts

Army total 1999

If you want to keep it themed RW, then you will struggle with fliers. Everyone dogs on the Nephilim, but it is worth taking. Plenty of weapons for shooting down another flier and can pop some ground vehicles as well. I have not lost one yet in a game. I apply heavy pressure with Black Knights. Run a libby on a bike with a RWC group, appoth and the two extra bikes. Outflank the group, come in behind and pop a tank from behind first time or take down a MC/IC with twin linked plasma goodness. If you want to move away from a pure RW army, throw down a dev squad with flakk missiles. Toss a libby in the group with prescience. Pop one flier each round. Flying MC are not so scary anymore with four flakks in his face every turn.

Flyers are not so much of a problem for ravenwing forces IMO, high movespeed, jink and hit and run all provide some method of avoiding or mitigating flyers. Also there's a fair number of special weapons coupled with the move capable of getting plenty or rear armour shots.
With mathhammer, black knights in rapid fire range are actually only slightly inferior to dev squads - though they do have a faily high chance of cooking themselves when doing this.

The only serious threat from flyers is the Helldrake. AP3 and strength 6 which ignores cover, torrent and 360 degree fire counters bike lists hard, especially dakka banner ones.
To counter these I'm opting for the Mortis-contemptors, whilst 24 range is not so much normally, it will help keep the close range helldrakes away from the bike blob by making a no fly bubble in the centre of the board. Also helps by preventing vector strikes.
Also they can move a little and provide anti air (Yes I know not in the same turn) -which is a little more in keeping with a ravenwing theme than dev squads or aegis quad.

The nephilim model is great, but str 6 missiles really turn me off, furthermore a price tag of 180 is too much for what you get.

Nice to see another biker General! My Ravenwing haven't lost a game yet in about 30 games. It does help I rolled Invisibility in like 95% of them.

Your final list is somewhat close to mine; depending on my I take two Contemptors for AA, or sometimes just go for Black Knight spam.

Non-Forgeworld list would be:

Sammael
Lvl 2 Librarian, bike, Auspex, PFG
5-man RCS, Banner of Dev
5-man RCS, Ravenwing Standard

3-man RAS, Melta, Attack Bike, MM
3-man RAS, Melta, Attack Bike, MM
3-man RAS, Melta, Attack Bike, MM
5-man RAS

5-man Black Knights
5-man Black Knights,
Darkshroud

While my FW list is pretty much the same, except with Contemptors instead of the two additional BK squads. Sometimes I roll a LRC for los-blocking action.

I always go lvl 2 on my Librarian, Invisibility wins games, and two rolls on divination are just as good.

Big Blind Bill wrote:Thanks for the input. I'm going to go with this list for now. May invest in more black knights later depending on how I find the mortis dreads work with the reast of the army.

HQ – Sammael
HQ – Librarian – Mastery Level 1, Bike
HQ* – Ravenwing Command Squad – +2 Knights, Champion, Grenade Launcher. Apothecary, Dakka standard bearer, 300pts
Total 585 pts

Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Plasmaguns, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Flamers, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant
Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta. Veteran Sergeant
Total 984 pts

Heavy Support – Mortis-Contemptor Dreadnought – Kheres Assault Cannon x2, CML,
Heavy Support – Mortis-Contemptor Dreadnought – Kheres Assault Cannon x2, CML,
Total 430 pts

Army total 1999

The problem with SoD lists is that once the banner bearer dies, and he will, your firepower drops drastically and although I haven't lost a game yet, there have been too many close calls. I find them pretty one-dimensional.
Salvo bolters solve most problems in a game, but you do reach a saturation point; I find the sweet-spot for balancing salvo shots is about 70-80. Over 90, and you'll be wasting shots, because there just isn't that much that can survive the previous seventy, and you're neglecting firepower elsewhere. My ratio is about 30% Salvo 30% Plasma 20% Melta 20% Skyfire (Contemptors).

I'm shifting towards a double-threat list: on one side you have 15+ Black Knights turbo-boosting towards you with a 2+ cover save, and on the other you have four bike squads putting out 60+ twin linked bolt shots a turn. Focus one, you get killed by other. Split focus, and you probably don't have enough to neutralise the threat. This way you're not forced to cluster around the banner every single game and rely on a single phase; Black Knights are one of the best all rounders in the game, and at 40 points in RCS, pretty damn cheap.

Also, never leave home without the Ravenwing Standard. at 15 points, it's a must take- with the buff to Command Squads there is no reason not to take a second 5-man squad instead of Black Knights. Automatic Hit and Run is almost broken; Hit and Run 4D6 is incredible for covering ground. Try it and you'll see what I mean. Never worry about failing a Hit and Run roll again. (at least until the banner dies.)

Also, ATKNSF means there is absolutely no point in running 6 man squads. 3-man Ravenwing MSU don't lose any effectiveness, and make it far harder for your opponent to kill your bikes, and allows you to get more precision shots, more chump sarges to accept challenges, and allow precise application of firepower ( a full 6-man shooting salvo is overkill on most infantry.) They also cost extra points for some reason, and every point counts. I don't think you ever need more than three Attack Bikes, they are marvelous however. Don't forget you can always make two shooting attacks with ABs, so you can Melta and throw a Krak grenade, or Salvo Bolter and Multi Melta.

Don't bother with Veteran Sgts, they don't add anything to the list. Don't bother with Plasma on bikers, that's what BKs are for. Flamers are always nice to round out the points, but considering RW is the strongest anti-infantry army in the game, flamers are kind of redundant.

I love Contemptors. They put out an obscene amount of firepower (They're what Riptides on Nova Charge wish they did... except BS5 and don't Gets Hot) and the additional Cyclone shots are just icing on the cake.
Generally I don't find their mobility a huge problem- just make sure you initial deployment is in the centre of the board, and you can command the entire table from there. You create a huge no-fly zone for enemy flyers, and if playing defensively use them as a bulwark to screen the rest of your army (this is where LRCs shine.)

DA Field of Green wrote:If you want to keep it themed RW, then you will struggle with fliers. Everyone dogs on the Nephilim, but it is worth taking. Plenty of weapons for shooting down another flier and can pop some ground vehicles as well. I have not lost one yet in a game. I apply heavy pressure with Black Knights. Run a libby on a bike with a RWC group, appoth and the two extra bikes. Outflank the group, come in behind and pop a tank from behind first time or take down a MC/IC with twin linked plasma goodness. If you want to move away from a pure RW army, throw down a dev squad with flakk missiles. Toss a libby in the group with prescience. Pop one flier each round. Flying MC are not so scary anymore with four flakks in his face every turn.

No, a Nephilim is not worth taking in any circumstance. Never outflank your RCS, you can reach anywhere on the board on turn one and assault anything on turn two, why waste a turn doing nothing in reserve for a chance of not coming on? Why take Devs when Contemptors are so much better?

Thanks for some good points there Amodai.

I agree that the librarian upgrade is useful, however my opponents will be spamming rune priests, whose rune weapons make casting anything a pain most the time. I just didn't want to shell out too much and see no reward.
I may take a PFG on him though. His main use will be to try and boost DTW rolls around the blob when the JOTWW spam starts.

The reason for the large RAS units is to try and get some distance away from the banner, keeping one model in range 6 and getting everyone else spread out, in an attempt to reduce blobbing and also get more bikes around the banner. Don't know how effective this would be.

I do like your idea of 4 BK squads in a list, will have to give it a go in the future.

How do you feel about apothecaries in the command squads? They seem to be a good investment.