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New Theory Crafting List

HQ
Libby
termie armour
storm bolter
Wings and unleash rage
180

Elite
Chaplain Power armour
100

Troops
Tactical Squad (10)
Heavy Bolter
170

Tactical Squad (5)
90

Assault Squad (10) [with libby]
Power Fist Sarge
215

Assault Squad (5)
Combat Shield Sarge
105

Death Company (5) [with chaplain]
Thunder Hammer
Power Sword
140

Death Company Dreadnaught
Magna Grapple
Blood Talons
140

Fast Attack
Baal Predator
TL AC
Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Dozer Blade
150

Heavy Support
Storm Raven Gunship [Holding Death Company]
TL Lascannon
TL Multi-Melta
Extra Armour
205

=1500

Before people say don't put anything into a storm raven! heres my plan. Normally I'm used to reacting to my opponent (tau)
Like a Football team

goalie = baal?
defence = tac squads
mid field = assault squads with libby
offence = storm raven with deathcompany squad and dread
striker = storm raven

(I'd add a vindicator for 1850)

Thoughts? As soon as I have time to test it i can let you guys know how it works

Might switch termie libby for jetpack libby and give him a str 10 hit instead for challenges.

I like the list only thing i would do is drop the power fist and pick up some meltas. And if your going to put your Liby with your tactical squad i give him Divination take Prescience and what ever one comes up random is all good.

Should I put him in termie armour tho?

I like the termi armour, but maybe find the points for a SS. the 3+ for challenges will make all the difference and with that S10 power he will be a beast.

Well my original plan was this

Scenario 1:
Termie armour
could do storm shield

config :1
psychic codex: wings and unleash rage
-OR-
psychic codex: wings and sword(str10)

Goes with assault squad

Scenario 2:
Termie Armour
could do storm shield

Psychic could be anything but i'd like to keep one from codex being str 10 (sword)

Goes with tac squad

Scenario 3:
power armour
jet pack

psychic powers are either divination or w/e

goes with assault squad

Which one would be the most optimal for a libby ignoring the list?

Well, I think that wings is a pointless power when you only have him as a libby and not a epistolary. You wont be able to use the S10 power after jumping....

I would put him with the DC in the SR. Even though I dont agree with loading anything in them lol. If it gets shot down, he at least gets a chance at saving the wound. Also, in this scenario I would give him Shield and cast that until the SR can drop them off. Even if its is only a 5+ you are not jinking and having to snap fire.

Meep I completly forgot to mention that. He is an epistolary!

As for the SR setup
Turn 1: reserves
Turn 2: make zooming move
Turn 3: make hover move and drop of enough threats in the center board to make the enemy really consider what he should kill.

Unleash Rage will be useless with DC?

I'm guessing Shield and roll for divination?

Cool, I still think that packing him in with the "punch you in the face" Death Company will make him and the unit a mini deathstar. Allowing the rest of your army to be less of a target priority.

That's too much in reserves, imo. Your main force will be destroyed if you roll 1 or 2 for reserves. Don't put anything in Stormravens, you can't make it good. The Stormraven and BA models cost too much. I'm not sure its good even if you could guarantee the Stormraven lives. Piecemealing your own army is a disaster.

"Allowing the rest of your army to be less of a target priority."

There might not be a rest of the army by the time units can assault out of the Stormraven.

If i'm not mistaken a flyer comes out from reserves starting TURN 2 on a roll of 3+ So A Roll of 1 or 2 it stays in reserves, and on TURN 3 I roll for a 3+ again.

Without the librarian I'm effectively putting 585 points in reserve... leaving 915 on the field.
32 bases on field
8 in reserve

What if I change it up a bit and squeeze in a droppod for the DC? I can already see one problem being they won't be able to assault the turn they come in. But they would come in on turn 1 and that's 240 points (+droppod cost) Leaving 345 in reserve.

Understabdably i'd need to Zoom 18" shoot the sh*t outta stuff. Turn 3 go hover and drop of the dread. I'd get 3 melta gaks (1 twinlinked) lascannon. turn 4 go zoom zoom again which should effectively give me 3 turns with the SR

I also understand and have heard/read in many places not to put things into a SR. But it seems to be the most effective way to get a DV Dread across the board.

DC Dread alone = 12" up front turn1: move 6; turn 2: move 6; turn 3: move 6; == 30" total movement (+ charge) but that also includes 1-3 shooting phases. Whereas in the SR its 24"(+ charge) with basically snap fires in 1 shooting phase,

-OR-

Should i just try the dc dread on its own somewhere?

The simplest answer is to use fragnoughts in drop pods and not use dedicated HTH dreads at all, for this exact reason. Blood talons, in my experience, are highly overrated.

Drop pod DC is, as far as I can tell, the most popular way to deploy them. They have the dead turn, but if you don't want to cough up for the LR, it's better than jumpers.

I hate telling people not to use the Stormraven as GW clearly intended, but then they wrote rules to make this scheme not work well in the game.

And, yes, with a 585/915 spit, if you roll a 1 or 2 on turn 2, you will probably lose that match right then and there.

Methematically I think DC with JP don't pay off at all from what i've learned.

I do have a LR which i could use but then i'd be taking out the SR (which is guaranteed)

I've heard that you good sir Martel were the goto BA guy =P

DC with SR - bad
-vs-
DC with LR
DC Dread walking
-vs-
DC with DP
DC Dread SR

As I said, I don't use either the DC and by extension DC dreads. Plus DC dreads, are only AV 12 which is fail compared to the Furioso. If you really want HTH specialists, I like sanguinary guard better.

I build TAC lists, which means I use Stormravens as hedges against other fliers, not to be some kind of assault wrecking ball. Another problem is that what if your loaded Stormraven has to choose between getting into assault position or firing position vs a helldrake?

I feel that it's far more efficient for the BA to make use of BS4 and whittle down any opponent before assault. I feel that this list concept just does not do enough shooting to be competitive.

Furioso and DC are similar in all aspects except AV 13 and -rage - furious charge -1 attack i think.

So Furioso > DC ? (i guess also because DC requires a DC squad of 5 min)
And Sang Guard > Furioso for a HTH spec?
( i have around 8000 points to work with so i'm trying to be really flexible)

So all in all DC are not good at all in this meta?

I like using Baal Preds, I ran a list the other day with 3 of them in 1500. Absolutly brutal to hordes and PA. Surprisingly they are well suited for snap firing at flyers as well. The TL AC and Rending help when the SR is off the board or engaged elsewhere. I think that the Sang Guard really got beefed up in 6th since most PW are now AP3.

DC in Pods and LRC's are the way I run my lists when I take them. I also like to run Hurricane bolters on the SR....a lot of people think it is a point sink, but being able to throw 12 more dice (TL) is always nice!

With my local meta I run into lots of Tau, Nids, and CSM so being able to drop in behind their lines is really nice and causes confusion, making my opponent having to choose between getting assaulted the next turn or facing an AV13 Armour wall throwing up to 30 shots at them. However, it is not a competative meta and I play at my Local GW. So power lists are frowned upon.

What if I drop the DC dread

Put the DC with the chappy still in a DP

Squeeze in 5 Sang Guard with 1 infernus and PF ??

Like Martel was saying, DC dreads are sub par to the Furioso. They dont have the Armour nor the weapons to be effective when being dropped in....I would not recommend the DC dread as it would probably be popped right away. The chappy and DC in a DP are worth it though IMO. FNP make them a little more survivable.


Sorry, misread your post....yeah, the DC and chappy in a DP and a 5 man SG unit would be better

Don't worry I misread my own post xD

Ill remake a list with this when i get home.

But then I go back to my original question. What do I do with the Libby..

The libby buffs multiple units with shield or a single unit with divination. Your choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
" I think that the Sang Guard really got beefed up in 6th since most PW are now AP3."

Except that plasma is everywhere :\

so epistolary isnt worth it?

and i guess put him with tactical squad

Martel732 wrote:
The libby buffs multiple units with shield or a single unit with divination. Your choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
" I think that the Sang Guard really got beefed up in 6th since most PW are now AP3."

Except that plasma is everywhere :\

Meh, you win some you lose some haha! My meta does not have a lot of plasma and when it does show up, it becomes a target priority just like melta was in 5th....you can still get a FNP roll against it since it is only S7 or a shield buff. It really has to do with deployment and movement when you can't take care of it quickly. But yes, boooo plasma. Here's hoping it gets hot!

If I may ask, why is plasma so popular now?

Sure. That's a great question. It's a big shift because of the buff on 2+ armor.

In 5th, power weapons used to straight up ignore armor saves. But now, many power weapons are only AP 3 or even AP 4. So 2+ armor got a lot better. Plasma counters AP 2.

In addition, vehicles are now subject to death via HP degredation. In 5th, one had to roll a "kill" result or destroy every weapon and immobilize to kill a vehicle. But now, vehicles are far more vulnerable to glancing results. So, the perceived need for melta has gone down, opening the door for plasma. After all, plasma had double the range and double the shots at 12", still wounds meqs on 2s and is AP 2.

Personally, I still use more melta than most people because I like vehicles to die quickly and they are assault weapons, not rapid fire. THat being said, I do use more plasma in 6th than in 5th. My regular bikers and tactical squads are always packing plasma. Bikers are relentless so they can assault after double tapping plasma. But my ASM still get melta or flamers.

Some people go nuts with this and use the "plasma guard", which are BA honor guard all with plasma guns. If feel that it makes the models too expensive, but some people like the firepower.

If you can't tell, I generally frown upon too many schemes that hurt the BA already bad model count.

Martel732 wrote:
Sure. That's a great question. It's a big shift because of the buff on 2+ armor.

In 5th, power weapons used to straight up ignore armor saves. But now, many power weapons are only AP 3 or even AP 4. So 2+ armor got a lot better. Plasma counters AP 2.

In addition, vehicles are now subject to death via HP degredation. In 5th, one had to roll a "kill" result or destroy every weapon and immobilize to kill a vehicle. But now, vehicles are far more vulnerable to glancing results. So, the perceived need for melta has gone down, opening the door for plasma. After all, plasma had double the range and double the shots at 12", still wounds meqs on 2s and is AP 2.

Personally, I still use more melta than most people because I like vehicles to die quickly and they are assault weapons, not rapid fire. THat being said, I do use more plasma in 6th and in 5th. My regular bikers and tactical squads are always packing plasma. Bikers are relentless so they can assault after double tapping plasma. But my ASM still get melta or flamers.

Some people go nuts with this and use the "plasma guard", which are BA honor guard all with plasma guns. If feel that it makes the models too expensive, but some people like the firepower.

If you can't tell, I generally frown upon too many schemes that hurt the BA already bad model count.

Spot on.

I am one of those that runs the Plasma Guard. DP with 4 Plasma guns and a libby with divination makes most units go bye-bye. I agree that it makes the modles way too expensive and usually dont run that unit in anything under 2K. I like the thematic aspect to the unit.

Ah! Thank you, that was actually really informative =].

And I guess its because of this plasma influx that sang guard and dreads become so much less viable..
A priest would give them FNP at the least but thats the only unit I don't have (with jet pack anyway)

On the side note my Tau strat wouldn't really change much because I take plasma no matter what.

But back to BA. The shift to plasma hurts a lot of lists from what I can see...

Im thinking I may go with the DC squad as listed above, 240(w/ chappy ; droppod cost not inc) vs 250 sang guard for now see how it works. With the crozius (ap3?) 2 power swords (ap3 i believe) and TH (ap2?) They will get the same amount of attacks as sang guard i think?

DC on charge have what 2 base + cc Weapon (swords) +2 charge
Power sword 10
normal 10
TH 4
chappy 4

-hits-
14 ap3 hits with rerolls on wound and hit (avrg 10.5 hits against ws 4)
and 3 TH hits
and 7.5 regular hits

-wounds-
str 4 base assuming str 5 because of furious charge
PS 8.778 wounds
TH 2.65
normal 6.69

So 11.4 wounds no armour saves (MEQ)
and 6.69 regular saves (depending on who enemy is for this math)

VS

Sang guard if i'm not mistake 2 base +1cc weap +1 charge

against ws 4 50% hit so 10
wounding on a 3 so 6.6 ap 3 hits + w/e the priest gives. If I give them a chaplain also their price goes up to 350...which would be to much in one unit imo.

Mathematically attacking wise the DC are better (unless I fked something up)
Defensively 2+ always beats 3+ and both have 5+++
Mobility, its DP vs JP
All stats was assuming squads at full

Against plasma, the DC are certainly better. However, there are other considerations. The Sanguinary Guards come out of the box useful. They are mobile and have a 2+ save and power weapons.

DC have FNP, but nothing else special. They need to be purchased power weapons and mobilization.

I don't much care for them, but you will see krak missiles, which vaporize DC but bounce off sanguinary guards.

But perhaps the thing I like best about sanguinary guards is that they are still very effective even if they are assaulted in some manner. Their master crafted still gets a re roll and they still have 2+ armor. DC lose a lot of steam if they get assaulted.

Oh, and sanguinary guards can be given infernus pistols, which is nice for shooting, but inflates their cost. I don't use either unit very often to be honest.

OI I forgot master crafted in le math!

20 attacks 50% hits 10 reroll rest 5
15 hits
9.9 wounds.. bit better

For now I guess Sang Guard would be a bit cheaper a bit less punch but better defence and mobility..I could put the libby with them and make him an epistolary wings and unleash rage or wing and shield or wings and divination I guess. Drop DC dread and squad completley for now from both your respective opinions. I'll need to recount the points when I get home..

I find it better to leave IC out of Sanguinary Guards and just run them close to my biker priest. I always have a biker priest, since I always have MM attack bikes. The Sanguinary guards can keep up with the MM attack bikes unless they turbo boost. I like the fact that the sanguinary guards have no ICs. I like to lump ICs together as much as possible, since I almost always deny challenges.

So bikes have improved that much since 4th eh?

5+jink if they move 12 and shoot weapons?

Yes, and they get FNP that can only be negated by S10. So they get two 5++ vs lascannon, dark large, heavy rail rifle, etc. And attack bikes can only be overkilled by S 10 as well.