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Okay, got some Tyranids in the old Battle for Maccragge boxed set ages ago, and I also bought a bunch of Nids on e-bay like a year later. I ran a games club at my middle school (I'm a teacher) and so I tired to get quite a number of armies that the kids could use before eventually saving up their money or getting Christmas gifts of whatever and buying their own armies. It worked well, and my Tyranids served their role as a "club army" in a pretty non-competitive setting. However, time went by and I eventually began to play Warhammer Fantasy almost exclusively. Then I bought Blood Angels about two years ago, played two games with them, and then the 6th edition of the rules came out. Anyway, with the struggles I've been having with my BA (I haven't given up, though!) I am thinking about reviving my Tyranid army.

Of course, I hate the paint scheme I came up with almost ten years ago and I am painfully aware of how outdated my models are. But, I like the Tyranids, I have read the new codex, and the new models are pretty cool too. So, if I want to start over, what should I do?

Just so you have a reference point, here is what I have:

HQ:

2 Old Hive Tyrants, both with Scything talons and Venom cannons

ELITE:

2 Old metal Lictors
1 Zoanthrope

TROOPS:

4 Warriors with Deathspitters and scything talons; one with a venom cannon
1 Warrior with Scything talons and rending claws

20 genestealers
25 Termagants
10 Hormagaunts
4 ripper bases

FAST:

1 metal Ravener with devourer
Various spore mines (quite a lot of them)

HEAVY:

1 Old Carnifex with Sything talons and venom cannon
2 Old metal "Old One Eyes"--so Scything talons and Crushing claws
3 Biovores


Yeah. So, if I tried to play with this, I think I would get destroyed. Is there any way I can make use of this as a decent sort of base for a 6th edition army? What should I concentrate on buying and adding? I could put some more specific questions here, but I figure you've got enough to comment on with the list. Any direction and advice would be greatly appreciated!

A good start is spare bits - I would get some devourers on a tyrant and a carnifex - 12 twin-linked S6 shots is never a bad thing. Tyrant needs either wings or a guard though - you can get plastic wings from GW for about £8 I think. Tyrant guard are a little more expensive.

Biovores got good again, so the brood of 3 you have is well worth taking.

Your main problem here is troops. Genestealers got stuffed in 6th and can't do half of waht they did in 5th. Maybe run them small as a broodlord delivery system (he is a psyker) or use a ymgarls, but you don't have many other options. Hormogaunts are not really much quicker than termagants now and die really easy. What you really need is a tervigon and a mass of termagants, but that's a pricey add-on. MAybe proxy old one-eye as a tervigon for now - it's not that you'd ever play him now as he's about the most overcosted unit in the codex.

Warriors, at least you have 5 models so some durabaliy. They are still missile fodder, but can be useful. Either convert the differently armed one to a Prime give him regen and tank the insta-kill shots or arm them all the same (it's the rules!) and maybe drop them in a mycetic spore. You would need to convert/build one but they can be done cheaply.

If you have a single zoanthrope again get a mycetic spore and then run him as the Doom of Malantai.

For a base 1,500 list try the following (points not exact - don't have codex to hand) and then build from there. It's not mega tough but will play ok in 6th with minimum spend:

HQ Hive Tyrant, Armoured Shell, 2 TL devourers (need arms)
HQ Tyrant Guard, lash whip (need to get this)
EL Doom of Malantai in Mycetic Spore (need spore)
EL 6 Ymgarls
TR Tervigon (proxy OOE until you get model - use hormogaunts for spawns)
TR 10 termagants
TR 5 warriors, deathspitters and rending claws in mycetic spore (need arms and spore)
HS 3 Biovores
HS Carnifex 2 TL devourers (need arms)

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:


HQ:

2 Old Hive Tyrants, both with Scything talons and Venom cannons

ELITE:

2 Old metal Lictors
1 Zoanthrope

TROOPS:

4 Warriors with Deathspitters and scything talons; one with a venom cannon
1 Warrior with Scything talons and rending claws

20 genestealers
25 Termagants
10 Hormagaunts
4 ripper bases

FAST:

1 metal Ravener with devourer
Various spore mines (quite a lot of them)

HEAVY:

1 Old Carnifex with Sything talons and venom cannon
2 Old metal "Old One Eyes"--so Scything talons and Crushing claws
3 Biovores

Is there any way I can make use of this as a decent sort of base for a 6th edition army? What should I concentrate on buying and adding? I could put some more specific questions here, but I figure you've got enough to comment on with the list. Any direction and advice would be greatly appreciated!

To have a decent army, you just need to switch the Scything Talons& Venom Cannons for dual Devourers, and lose the Lictors, Warriors, Genestealers, Hormagaunts, Rippers, Ravener, spore mines, Carnifex and Old One Eye.
Get 6 Hive Guards, 2-3 Tervigons, more Termagants. Buy a Mega Blok Plastic Hatcher as a Mycetic Spore for your Zoanthrope (Doom). Sprinkle with Gargoyles.

Get some wings for your hive tyrants, and some tervigons.

Thanks to all of you--I appreciate the advice. I'm not unwilling to spend some money, too, so I probably will just buy the new Tyrant, a Tervigon, and a couple of Hive Guard. Bitz are a good idea too--maybe I could pick up some army on e-Bay.

I'll also check out the options for the Mycetic spore--either the one N.I.B. suggested or tutorials for making one. I've seen some advice about Doom in a Spore on here, so I recognize the benefits of that strategy.

It's too bad that Genestealers are not as useful anymore, and are pretty expensive in game terms--14 points each! Having lots of Termagants to get spawned by Tervigons is still useful, I guess. Too bad about Old One Eye--do you think that running Carnifexes with Crushing claws and Scything Talons (not the named characters) is useful, or do they just get blasted before they can cross the field?

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Too bad about Old One Eye--do you think that running Carnifexes with Crushing claws and Scything Talons (not the named characters) is useful, or do they just get blasted before they can cross the field?

I ran a brood of 2 configured with Crushing Claws/Scything Talons for a little while and they did ok (not spectacular, but better than expected). The chief vulnerability I found with them wasn't so much being shot (sufficient target saturation takes care of that) as much as their being stuck at initiative 1 with WS 3 for defense in assault. Without a Lash Whip and/or psychic power support they had a tendency to die before they had a chance to swing if they tried attacking anything remotely competent in assault, though they did a fine job of bullying 3+ armor/multi-wound infantry and of course smashing armored tanks. On the other hand, with a Lash Whip and support they did well enough, particularly against other MCs (10-18 S9 attacks will pulp pretty much anything, Iron Arm or not).

Ultimately the biggest problem the Crushing Claw/Scything Talon Carnifex has is that for the same point cost you can get a Tervigon with Crushing Claws which is more or less functionally identical in close combat, yet also comes with two extra wounds, a S5 gun, a psychic power, LD 10, Shadow in the Warp/Synapse, and the ability to generate additional screening units to protect itself. The only advantage the Carnifex with Crushing Claws has in comparison is that it is S9 innately without having to smash, so it can potentially deliver a greater volume of high strength attacks than the Tervigon counterpart and on the turn it charges it delivers a S9 Hammer of Wrath hit instead of a S5 hit (the fact that a Carnifex isn't a character can be an advantage depending on target - Necron Lords for instance can't challenge them so with careful placement they can completely avoid Mind Shackle Scarabs). This is not to say they are unusable, but they are not really optimal for competitive/tournament play.

If you use them as is, I would strongly suggest having them follow a walking Tyrant around as monstrous bodyguards. As mentioned, they really benefit from having a Lash Whip about and the Tyrant in turn benefits from having them around to bail him out if he gets charged by a walker or a tarpit unit.

Strat, thanks a ton for that. The lash whip strategy definitely makes sense, and I actually also really like the Two Hulking Bodyguards idea. I DO own the models, so I might give them a run. The Tervigon with crushing claws is an interesting one, though--also something to consider. So, thanks for some great ideas that I can try out.

Tyranids have one thing that keeps the army from being entirely unviable, and thats tervigons. Convert or buy yourself 2-4 of them. then you can copy paste the one tournament viable list that everyone runs.

TBH, this is not the time for getting back into nids. All your old builds are dead. Only a very, very small subset of units are viable. Only a very simple set of tactics are possible. Only one army build with tiny modifications is strong. Tyranids need a new codex, plain and simple. The codex is broken.

That list is not unplayable. It does have the makings of a good horde list with tank(mc) support. Next question is how muc remodeling you willing to do?

With no changes to the models, I word run something like this. It is an 1850 list and the only thing not WYSIWYG is the VC's running as Stranglers.

HQ: 460
Tyrant w/Armored shell, Stranglethorn, scything talons 230
Tyrant w/armored shell, Stranglethorn,scything talons 230

Elite: 428
1 Zoanthrope 60
8 Ymgral 184
8 Ymgral 184

Troops: 405
4 Warriors with Deathspitters and scything talons; one with a barb strangler 180
25 Termagants 125
10 Hormagaunts 60
4 ripper bases (under 6e this little buggers give MC cover, so long the shot pass between to bases in the same unit pg18 brb). 40

HVY: 545
2 Carnie w/Sytching talons, Crushing claw and Bioplamsa 410
3 Biovores 135

This will not be super Tourney list, but is it strong enough to atleast make the opponent work for it and occasionally win friendly games.

 zephoid wrote:
Tyranids have one thing that keeps the army from being entirely unviable, and thats tervigons. Convert or buy yourself 2-4 of them. then you can copy paste the one tournament viable list that everyone runs.

TBH, this is not the time for getting back into nids. All your old builds are dead. Only a very, very small subset of units are viable. Only a very simple set of tactics are possible. Only one army build with tiny modifications is strong. Tyranids need a new codex, plain and simple. The codex is broken.

Really? Dang it--that's not what I had heard. They DID just get some new models, in the form of the Tervigon and Hive Guard and stuff. So their codex is not that old. I also play Blood Angels, and THEY are definitely broken; I am buying, converting, and trying out all kinds of new stuff just to try to win a game. And everything I hear about Necrons is that they are totally over the top in terms of power.

So, maybe the 6th edition of the rules is broken?

 zephoid wrote:
Tyranids have one thing that keeps the army from being entirely unviable, and thats tervigons. Convert or buy yourself 2-4 of them. then you can copy paste the one tournament viable list that everyone runs.

TBH, this is not the time for getting back into nids. All your old builds are dead. Only a very, very small subset of units are viable. Only a very simple set of tactics are possible. Only one army build with tiny modifications is strong. Tyranids need a new codex, plain and simple. The codex is broken.

Well run horde lists are still viable. Just not as easy as tervi spam. Both lists have to have good rolls on the powers tables, and decent terrain on the table helps a lot. I find 'nids need the psychers now. Zonathrope, broodlords, tyrants, and Trevigons need the powers to make everything else work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Tyranids have one thing that keeps the army from being entirely unviable, and thats tervigons. Convert or buy yourself 2-4 of them. then you can copy paste the one tournament viable list that everyone runs.

TBH, this is not the time for getting back into nids. All your old builds are dead. Only a very, very small subset of units are viable. Only a very simple set of tactics are possible. Only one army build with tiny modifications is strong. Tyranids need a new codex, plain and simple. The codex is broken.

Really? Dang it--that's not what I had heard. They DID just get some new models, in the form of the Tervigon and Hive Guard and stuff. So their codex is not that old. I also play Blood Angels, and THEY are definitely broken; I am buying, converting, and trying out all kinds of new stuff just to try to win a game. And everything I hear about Necrons is that they are totally over the top in terms of power.

So, maybe the 6th edition of the rules is broken?

Nids are broken as in don't work great do to some stupid codex writing. The nid codex is old (not Eldar old, but still old) , the new models were just re-sculpts and one unit that never had a model, we style don't have a harpy yet. Hive guard were released with the codex. Necron are a power codex style. BA, yeah they took a hit in 6e.

Just thinking about Warhammer 40,000 as a GAME, it really bugs me that some codices are so powerful, and that it's so variable. Evidently the Blood Angels were super good in 5th Edition (I was playing all Fantasy at that point, and so actually missed the entire "golden age" evidently) but now they're really overpriced and hard to use. I am not saying that all armies should be mirror images (like the Dark Elves and High Elves in Fantasy, for instance) but I do believe that it should be like any other good strategy game. You should be able to play Tyranids or Blood Angels because you like what they ARE; what they do. (And I do like both of those armies). I also have always liked Necrons--it's just the Terminator takeoff image, probably--but now if I started playing Necrons, I would feel like I was just going with the the "new thing" and trying to steamroller people.

Anyway, I figure I've got to keep playing the armies I have and like, and just try to adapt some tactics (and roll some good dice, hopefully) that will get me a win every now and again. It's more than a game, and the hobby side brings me satisfaction too. So, thanks for the advice, and sorry for the sermon.

Blood Angels were even more gruseome in 3rd edition. In 5th, they were very solid, but they were still not even top 3 in 5th. The worst part is that I feel the BA nerfs were mostly incidental nerfs that just added up to making the codex bad.

BA were good early 5th, but better armies kept coming along due to Ward's power creep This culminated in GK and Crons. GK were flat out broken, crons were tough, but beatable.

Then comes 6th and guess what, crons are set to take advantage of almost EVERY new set of rules to the point that they become broken. Good units became amazing, and abilities that were costed OK in 5th because stupid in 6th. Some strong stuff got even stronger (MSS, scythes) and that is why Ward has not written a codex since. 6th Codexes are actually very balanced and are on a level playing field. I think GW is actually trying to fix the problems Ward created (gaps, GW fix anything...). Hopefully all codexes will be updated to 6th in the next year. In the xeno category, nids will probably be after Eldar, so maybe mid fall at this rate. Orks are technically older, but their codex has survived incredibly well. While not incredibly strong, it is on a competitive level with all the 6th codexes that have been released. If the OP armies get toned down, orks will be more and more powerful.

"horde" nids loses to horde orks, tau, mech or blob IG, SW, and purifier GK. It is not viable because that make up a good portion of the armies you see in tourneys.
Here is the models nids have to use:
Swarmlord
Tyrant w wings and devourers
Tervigon with cat, onslaught, AG, TS
Zoan
Hive guard
Ymargls
Doom
Termigaunt with no upgrades
Carnifex with 2x devourers.
Literally, that is all you can use to be competitive. You dont even get upgrade choices anymore. Each model has specific upgrades you have to take to make it worthwhile and a whole host of useless ones. If you want to see how right i am, look at the last 2-3 pages of list building, find all the nid lists, and see if you can find recommendations outside this list. You will rarely find any.


The tervigon is a stupid story. Awesome in game, HORRID in fluff ( i mean really? think about how stupid the hive has to be to have a spawner on the front lines), and was entirely without a model for almost 2 years. The Tyrand harpy, Doom, and Parasite STILL dont have models after all this time (to my knowledge, the nids have the only named characters in the game with no models bar new codexes.). They went so long that chapterhouse made their own tervigon model. GW sued them, and lost, because no tervigon model existed for GW. Then GW threw a hissy fit and made a tervigon model of their own, nearly 2 years after the codex, just to stop other companies doing the same.

Martel732 wrote:
Blood Angels were even more gruseome in 3rd edition. In 5th, they were very solid, but they were still not even top 3 in 5th. The worst part is that I feel the BA nerfs were mostly incidental nerfs that just added up to making the codex bad.

What do you think about Mat Ward? I know he wrote Blood Angels--what else? I know he has a lot of "haters" out there, but I am not exactly sure why. He has a rep for making imbalanced Codices, right? So maybe that means that either they're OP or totally nerfed? (Oops--I hadn't seen that last post yet as I was writing this simultaneously, so thanks for those observations! So, he hasn't written a Codex since? Interesting.)

How long ago was 3rd edition? I've only been playing since 2008 or so, so I don't know much, and am actually much more experienced with Fantasy, which I have played just about every week for the past 4 years. On the balance, I've got about 6 40k games under my belt...

Hey, if you haven't seen it, there's a funny "Hitler's demise" video (do you know those--people can write their own subtitles for the scene from "Downfall"?) about Mat Ward and the Blood Angels' awesomeness. It must have come out a while ago... Anyway, you might enjoy it. Deep Striking Land Raiders are referenced...

3rd edition was the edition of Rhino rushing BAs. It was late 90s. It was novel, because marines in general sucked so hard in 2nd, it was fun to get to pound xenos and chaos into the pavement for a while.

I don't hate Matt Ward. GW has been spinning the wheel of random codex awesomeness forever. I'm kind of numb because I played when warp spiders had templates of instant death and carinfexes had T9 W10 3+ save on 2D6 and a 4++ invulnerable save. Oh and you had to shoo the closest model, so guess what was ALWAYS parked in front of the hive tyrant? You betcha.

And deep striking a land raider is a good way to kill you own land raider. That's a fluff add-on, not a functional advantage. Especially since nothing can assault after deep striking except vanguards. It was the same in 5th.

 zephoid wrote:
BA were good early 5th, but better armies kept coming along due to Ward's power creep This culminated in GK and Crons. GK were flat out broken, crons were tough, but beatable.

Then comes 6th and guess what, crons are set to take advantage of almost EVERY new set of rules to the point that they become broken. Good units became amazing, and abilities that were costed OK in 5th because stupid in 6th. Some strong stuff got even stronger (MSS, scythes) and that is why Ward has not written a codex since. 6th Codexes are actually very balanced and are on a level playing field. I think GW is actually trying to fix the problems Ward created (gaps, GW fix anything...). Hopefully all codexes will be updated to 6th in the next year. In the xeno category, nids will probably be after Eldar, so maybe mid fall at this rate. Orks are technically older, but their codex has survived incredibly well. While not incredibly strong, it is on a competitive level with all the 6th codexes that have been released. If the OP armies get toned down, orks will be more and more powerful.

"horde" nids loses to horde orks, tau, mech or blob IG, SW, and purifier GK. It is not viable because that make up a good portion of the armies you see in tourneys.
Here is the models nids have to use:
Swarmlord
Tyrant w wings and devourers
Tervigon with cat, onslaught, AG, TS
Zoan
Hive guard
Ymargls
Doom
Termigaunt with no upgrades
Carnifex with 2x devourers.
Literally, that is all you can use to be competitive. You dont even get upgrade choices anymore. Each model has specific upgrades you have to take to make it worthwhile and a whole host of useless ones. If you want to see how right i am, look at the last 2-3 pages of list building, find all the nid lists, and see if you can find recommendations outside this list. You will rarely find any.


The tervigon is a stupid story. Awesome in game, HORRID in fluff ( i mean really? think about how stupid the hive has to be to have a spawner on the front lines), and was entirely without a model for almost 2 years. The Tyrand harpy, Doom, and Parasite STILL dont have models after all this time (to my knowledge, the nids have the only named characters in the game with no models bar new codexes.). They went so long that chapterhouse made their own tervigon model. GW sued them, and lost, because no tervigon model existed for GW. Then GW threw a hissy fit and made a tervigon model of their own, nearly 2 years after the codex, just to stop other companies doing the same.

Dude, what an awesome post. Living overseas, I don't keep up with the GW business aspect, and don't know much at all about any competitor companies--I have bought Reaper miniatures for Fantasy, but that's it. So, the gossip side is hilarious to me. Man, I am a total GW addict, but there is definitely some strange stuff in the works. I'm a teacher, and so some of the misprints and ungrammatical stuff in their publications really tick me off. Hire an editor, GW.

Anyway, thanks for the info--the "updating to 6th" does give me hope. Fantasy is terrible, man. Some Codices like Dwarfs and Wood Elves and Bretonnians are so old they're from THREE editions of the rules ago. Ridiculous. I mean, I understand about creating new units taking time and all that, but sometimes it seems like there could just be an updated Codex, with some simple changes in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
3rd edition was the edition of Rhino rushing BAs. It was late 90s. It was novel, because marines in general sucked so hard in 2nd, it was fun to get to pound xenos and chaos into the pavement for a while.

I don't hate Matt Ward. GW has been spinning the wheel of random codex awesomeness forever. I'm kind of numb because I played when warp spiders had templates of instant death and carinfexes had T9 W10 3+ save on 2D6 and a 4++ invulnerable save. Oh and you had to shoo the closest model, so guess what was ALWAYS parked in front of the hive tyrant? You betcha.

And deep striking a land raider is a good way to kill you own land raider. That's a fluff add-on, not a functional advantage. Especially since nothing can assault after deep striking except vanguards. It was the same in 5th.

Yeah, totally right? What's the point of that? In fact, I thought about starting a new thread about Assault Vehicles but maybe you can answer my question here: How the heck do I get to use that rule in a game with, say, CC Terminators? Say a Stormraven. It's on the board (it survives, say, for the sake of argument), and then what? I fly 6" towards my target, and then disembark my Termies 6" up towards the target. Then I can run? And then I can charge on a 2D6 roll?

Or do I have to keep that Stormraven still to disembark them?

As for the Land Raider, I understand how to move it up the table and charge out of it, but the Deep Striking helps not at all. So, lame rule additions--like Dante's Tactical Insertion (or whatever it's called) that cannot be combined with the Vanguard Veterans (nor can he use their Heroic Intervention)! I mean, who better to do a Heroic Intervention than the Chapter Master? Dumb.

CC terminators go in land raiders. Stormravens are not safe. Even with stormshields, crashing still sucks.

For BA in particular, I like to beam in shooty terminators with a priest. Give them a heavy flamer and beam them in next to a locator beacon for no scatter. It puts power fists right in your enemy's grill. And they get two 5++ saves vs plasma.

Martel732 wrote:
CC terminators go in land raiders. Stormravens are not safe. Even with stormshields, crashing still sucks.

For BA in particular, I like to beam in shooty terminators with a priest. Give them a heavy flamer and beam them in next to a locator beacon for no scatter. It puts power fists right in your enemy's grill. And they get two 5++ saves vs plasma.

Yeah, I hear you about crashing... In such a "Flyer heavy" game as 6th ed. though, it seems like the Stormraven should be better. You think the HPs are wrong, right? Anyway...

I hear you about the Terminators' Powerfists, too. I have a Cyclone Missile Launcher dude too--what do you think about that? Same as generic MLs, which you don't like, or decent for a quick shot at side or rear armor? How about the Priest--have you painted or converted one up in Terminator armour, or just a generic Priest with the squad? Can he teleport in with them?

I am assuming you use your bikes (how many do you use, along with the Priest and Attack bike(s)?) to teleport the Termies in? So, you have got to use them to get to a decent postion--do you try to get behind or to the side of vehicles, or up by the gunline or what? Obviously it would depend on who you are playing.