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What's up Dakka, I wanted to get a bit of feedback regarding this list... work's been eating up my weekend time lately so very little opportunity for gaming. So I'm just busy modelling and playing around with lists.. like this one.
Spoiler:
HQ:
Typhus = 230
Chaos Sorcerer = 185 pts
-Termie armor
-Sigil of corruption
-mark of nurgle
-blight grenades
-veteran of the long war
-lvl 3 sorcerer
-power axe (modelled as such)
Troops: 4 units of zombies, 3 20 man and one 16 man (or however I want to split them up) for a total of 76 zombies =344 pts
Heavy Support: 9 obliterators, in squads of 3 each, with mark of nurgle and fully upgraded VOTLW = 711 pts
Fast attack: 2 squads of 5 spawn each, with mark of nurgle = 360 pts
1 Helldrake, Hades autocannon.
The idea behind the list:
Pretty much, maxed out options from the best choices in the codex, in a flexible package to flood the board with cheap, durable units than can be very killy.
The spawn provide immediate turn 2 threat, and are hard to take out for some armies, but are essentially expendable... they move off to the sides and into cover turn 1, then assault anything they can... they can also lurk behind and play the role of counterassault, if there are things coming in from reserve.
Typhus and the termie sorcerer join either a unit of zombies to advance, or a unit of oblits. This provides a lot of flexible options and choices to make pre-game... for instance, I could attach the lords into two squads of oblits and deepstrike everything, or one unit in, if I am playing against a gunline army. I could put both typhus and the sorc into a single squad of oblits to make a deathstar unit.
Or, I could attach typhus to a squad of zombies and just march up the field with everything, spreading out my targets.
With their shooting attacks (AP2 large blast) both sorcerers work well with oblits, since they can advance and shoot at stuff, but are also very capable in assault. They also work well for an footslogging advancing force, because the 'gets hot' nurgle power can shut down large infantry blobs that try to rapid fire into advancing troops (and overwatch). The sickness power shuts down counterassault units (-1 strength and toughness)
Typhus is also a great meatshield for obliterators, allowing them to live and dish out their firepower at close range, then assault.
The helldrake is there for dogfighting, and air superiority. The target priority for obliterators will be enemy ground based AA, and if a flyer comes on the board, the helldrake will swoop over it (making its vector strike on the flyer) and then shoot it in rear armor. This strategy also works for tanks that might be giving me trouble. It is not as devastating against infantry as the flamer, and we'll see, maybe I will still use the flamer just because it is so good (it's magnetized)
The zombies are there to flood the board, eating up bullets, hiding in every crevice, making any who choose to take out my troops options have a hard time, and two (or one) will advance up to claim objective, depending on the mission. With both the scouring and big guns never tire, my fast attack or heavy support can score... so strat changes based on that!
Let me know what you think, everyone.
This is my revised list (older one in spoiler): the main change here is more zombies and the addition of Huron. I had one game of this where I tested it against Tau, and I am pretty satisfied with it's ability to absorb firepower.
Typhus =230
Huron =160
Troops: 5 units of zombies, 1 32 man, 1 34 man and 3 10 man = 438 pts
Heavy Support: 9 obliterators, in squads of 3 each, with mark of nurgle and fully upgraded VOTLW = 711 pts
Fast attack: 2 squad of 4 spawn, with mark of nurgle = 288 pts
1 Helldrake, Hades autocannon. 170
=1997 pts.
The main strategy is to use Huron's infiltrate ability to give typhus or himself the infiltrate special rule, then attach the massive squads of zombies and infiltrate them up the middle of the board, or wherever they need to be. If I roll a D3 I can also infiltrate one squad of Oblits, rather than deepstriking.
The oblits will also deploy as far towards the center as possible and walk towards the enemy, and so will the spawn, so if things go right, the whole army walking towards the enemy will be threatening on turn two. The large squads of zombies are used to shield Typhus/Huron as they walk up the board, and both of these characters are pretty good at killing random stuff or winning challenges in combat.
So pretty much, I'd like two sorcerers but I still have Typhus, and Huron is a lot more essential to making the zombies work (they need that extra boost getting up the board to control it). I've actually had some fun with Huron's randomly generated psychic powers, they can actually be useful!
Now I just need to get more games in and test the different strategies and combos I can do with these units... For example, I can attach Typhus and deepstrike him with the Oblits, while Infiltrating up to 3 other units of zombies/oblits. I can use Typhus or Huron to attach to a unit of spawn and confer infiltrate onto them, if I like.
Between the horde of FNP bodies shielding and scoring, and the 2+ armor saves, and T5 or T6, this army is hard to punch into on a lot of fronts... and fast too. That's the main idea: hit like a ton of bricks all at once.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/05/27 23:49:38
2013/04/18 14:12:58
Subject: Playing around with a CSM 'dark mechanicus' infantry list, 2000 pts.
I would just warn you that the zombies might not do quite what you think they will. I have 3 lists that I've been playing with in 6th - a CSM army with two Hades Fiends and gargoyled Dakka Pred., a Deathwing army, and a greenwing army that on occasion brings a banner of devastation. I have played against as many as a 120 zombies in a single game and I've never really had issue with them. If your local meta doesn't have armies with a lot of the kind of dakka that would bring them down you might have better luck, but in my area they are often best used as tarpits for death stars, and/or mobile screens to get CC units across the board. You might want to try to get a few more reliable troops entries into that list just in case. This list could be good I think, but it is super dependent on how the zombies perform. If they get handled, you're kind of sunk.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/18 14:25:36
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2013/04/18 14:33:39
Subject: Playing around with a CSM 'dark mechanicus' infantry list, 2000 pts.
McNinja wrote: This isn't really a "Dark Mechanicus" list... that would be Warpsmiths, Forgefiends/Maulerfiends, heldrakes, etc.
Really, obliterators are not Dark Mechanicus?
Anyway I use conversions, this is my typhus:
These are my "mutant bi-mech" spawn:
And Bio-mech zombies:
Some of the Nurgle powers coincide nicely with dark mechanicus powers, for instance the weapon virus power that makes enemy guns have 'gets hot' special rule. Besides, there's nothing to say that Dark Mechanicus dudes can't also have psychic abilities.
I also made a forgefiend and some hellbrutes, but yes, this is a competitive list, and I was thinking of what would be the most competitive and still fit the theme. I still might use the forgefiend, but for the moment, the reason I am using oblits is because I want to max out the heavy support (3 oblits is just more points than forgefiend). Actually, I think if I were making a 1500 list then it may very well have a forgefiend.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tycho wrote: I would just warn you that the zombies might not do quite what you think they will. I have 3 lists that I've been playing with in 6th - a CSM army with two Hades Fiends and gargoyled Dakka Pred., a Deathwing army, and a greenwing army that on occasion brings a banner of devastation. I have played against as many as a 120 zombies in a single game and I've never really had issue with them. If your local meta doesn't have armies with a lot of the kind of dakka that would bring them down you might have better luck, but in my area they are often best used as tarpits for death stars, and/or mobile screens to get CC units across the board. You might want to try to get a few more reliable troops entries into that list just in case. This list could be good I think, but it is super dependent on how the zombies perform. If they get handled, you're kind of sunk.
Thanks for the advice Tycho,
The two uses you suggested, using them as mobile screens for my units, is exactly how I plan to use these guys.
Keep in mind, that I have two fully maxed units of spawn... that is 30 T6 wounds that the enemy has to deal with coming at them fast, and for this reason I think the zombies will generally go unmolested by bullets. It takes a lot to take them out, especially if they are hiding in the back behind some LOS blocking terrain.
But I don't have any illusions that they are some kind of awesome offensive unit, like I can just swarm the board with zombies and win. If anything I've spent too much on them. They are good at one thing, surviving and staying in combat forever. In fact, this list is not meant to be decisive in combat (although it could form a deathstar that could very well be against most things), but can do a lot by just advancing and shooting.
Also, I want to stay away from 3+ armor save and marines. Especially since I may have to play against flamer helldrakes on the enemy team, I want my army to either be able to just eat bullets or ignore that. For the same amount of points, if I spent it on marines, they could very well face a unit that would kill them just as easily as it would kill zombies.
This way.. if I play helldrakes, or vendettas, I have a survivable flyer on the board that can vector strike, and then shoot it in the rear.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/18 14:51:15
2013/04/18 15:03:50
Subject: Re:Playing around with a CSM 'dark mechanicus' infantry list, 2000 pts.
The two uses you suggested, using them as mobile screens for my units, is exactly how I plan to use these guys.
Keep in mind, that I have two fully maxed units of spawn...
Actually, it doesn't matter. Forget everything I said. Those conversions are too awesome to fail! That's some great work.
Seriously though, my point was more about the zombies as scoring units. That's the real issue I see with them. I have played against a similar list (slightly fewer spawn and more MoK Nurgle Raptors but otherwise almost identical) a few times and the issue I saw was that I didn't necessarily HAVE to deal with the spawn. Sacrifice a few cheap units out front to speed bump them and wipe out the zombies was how I played it. Once your scoring units aren't around to score, you are forced to pretty much wipe out everything I have to win. Otherwise, this was a decent list. I guess the thing I'm trying to get at is that it is sort of a one trick pony (but then with this new codex what CSM army ISN'T a one trick pony?)
EDIT:
Although, like I said, I tend to run super shooty armies so I can get away with that. If you don't have as much of that in your meta this could be pretty rough to play against. You just have to watch out for things like IG pie-plate armies and armies with maxed out heavies that can lay down blankets of high strength dakka.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/18 15:06:37
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2013/04/18 15:45:56
Subject: Re:Playing around with a CSM 'dark mechanicus' infantry list, 2000 pts.
Actually, it doesn't matter. Forget everything I said. Those conversions are too awesome to fail! That's some great work.
Seriously though, my point was more about the zombies as scoring units. That's the real issue I see with them. I have played against a similar list (slightly fewer spawn and more MoK Nurgle Raptors but otherwise almost identical) a few times and the issue I saw was that I didn't necessarily HAVE to deal with the spawn. Sacrifice a few cheap units out front to speed bump them and wipe out the zombies was how I played it. Once your scoring units aren't around to score, you are forced to pretty much wipe out everything I have to win. Otherwise, this was a decent list. I guess the thing I'm trying to get at is that it is sort of a one trick pony (but then with this new codex what CSM army ISN'T a one trick pony?)
EDIT:
Although, like I said, I tend to run super shooty armies so I can get away with that. If you don't have as much of that in your meta this could be pretty rough to play against. You just have to watch out for things like IG pie-plate armies and armies with maxed out heavies that can lay down blankets of high strength dakka.
So then would you recommend maybe cutting back on the spawn, and grabbing a few more zombies or something else? The one thing I can't do another is the helldrake, one is enough... the conversion was very time/labor intensive
I'm thinking there are a few other tricks I can do against a shooty list, first of all hiding the spawn out of LOS (only barrage can hurt them), or in reserve, and deepstriking in typhus and oblits right next to a shooty unit. Also, I can attach typhus and the sorcerer to the zombie units to tank the unit and absorb shots. All depending on what I play against.
As it is, I'm maxed out on heavies... and my obliterators and sorcerer combo are a powerful shooting force that people also must deal with, but I am very interested in how people deal with the zombies, my biggest challenge here is having a balance between too many zombies (that don't really do anything offensively) and too little (allowing the enemy to just shoot/assault them and win).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/18 15:53:12
2013/04/18 16:15:59
Subject: Re:Playing around with a CSM 'dark mechanicus' infantry list, 2000 pts.
I think the thing I had the most trouble with was the Raptors. It was a huge squad with a lot of plasma and he used them to try and herd units away from my formation. It was really difficult to deal with. But now that I think about it, I don't think the Oblits he had were really used very well. I DO think you need more scoring units (especially if you are putting the zombies into harm's way), but I don't think you need to drop any spawn. If you can DS a few oblits next to the most troublesome units that might do the trick. I probably wouldn't hide the spawn too much though. That just allows the enemy more rounds to whittle down your zombies.
To your question about dealing with zombies -
My CSM:
The Dakka pred w/gargoyels, twin hades fiends and a 'Drake typically take care of it. I also have a lot of armour saturation here so if worse comes to worse the 4 Rhinos deal with them.
My Deathwing:
Well, they're Deathwing. lol Terminator squads are tough. I usually have at least one or two 5 man squads with almost no upgrades that I can use to tarpit the tarpit while everything else is running around killing gak. Again though, against a hi-zombie count army I almost always have more scoring troops so I can afford to have two units that just kind of cancel out two other units. I also have some dreads in this army. That really sucks for zombies if I can get the dreads into them. Even if I only tie up two of the 4 squads in this case, the other two are not as scary.
My Greenwing:
Tons upon tons of tacticals packing plasma, often a banner of devastation, and again, drop pod dreads. This one's just about trying to roll more dice than the zombies.
So it's not that the list you have is easily countered, you just have to be aware of the risk you take in having all of your scoring tied up in what is normally thought of as bullet magnets. They are tough but they are slow and don't pack a punch. Sometimes they can even be dealt with by not dealing with them. I have a DE army that occasionally sees the light of day. They are fast enough that if the objectives and battlefield layout work right, I can claim any objective I want and the Zombies are too slow to counter. So in that case you have to hope you have the HS to shoot me off objectives. I think you probably do, I'm just trying to envision some scenarios I've run into against this. I think it would be a fun list to use.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/18 16:16:52
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2013/04/18 17:03:44
Subject: Re:Playing around with a CSM 'dark mechanicus' infantry list, 2000 pts.
I think the thing I had the most trouble with was the Raptors. It was a huge squad with a lot of plasma and he used them to try and herd units away from my formation. It was really difficult to deal with. But now that I think about it, I don't think the Oblits he had were really used very well. I DO think you need more scoring units (especially if you are putting the zombies into harm's way), but I don't think you need to drop any spawn. If you can DS a few oblits next to the most troublesome units that might do the trick. I probably wouldn't hide the spawn too much though. That just allows the enemy more rounds to whittle down your zombies.
Well based on what you said...
I'm starting to think it might be a good strat to spread out the zombies into 6 units... that way it's harder to deal with them by tarpitting. Initially I was thinking it was cheaper not to pay the 'sargeant tax' and cheaper to just make bigger squads for more zombies, and it would be good to have a large squad to shield typhus and the sorc, and for bubble wrapping stuff, but now I'm thinking maybe multiple small squads are the way to go. It's harder to wipe by shooting (you can hide that one last guy in back of terrain, it's still a unit), and more units to go around and harder to shoot them all, especially since fearless. However... 6 squads make 61 zombies vs 4 squads make 76. It's more wounds and FNP rolls I get to make. And bonus, if i go for 6 units I wouldn't have to convert any more than I currently have (about 60).
Maybe I would also beef them up by dropping a spawn or two. But there's not much wiggle room... everything in the list is tied up in oblits, helldrake, typhus, sorcerer.
2013/04/18 19:56:47
Subject: Re:Playing around with a CSM 'dark mechanicus' infantry list, 2000 pts.
I'm starting to think it might be a good strat to spread out the zombies into 6 units...
That's probably not a bad idea. That way you can even leave one squad to objective camp in your backfield if you need to and still have a lot of troops moving forward.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2013/04/18 22:09:18
Subject: Playing around with a CSM 'dark mechanicus' infantry list, 2000 pts.
Wow man, inspiring stuff there! Fantastic heldrake as well! I stole my heldrake idea from the internet, and it pales in comparison to your's, but I'm proud of it none the less:
I'm working on a Iron Warriors *count as* Nurgle army, with the whole logic being all that iron within and without making them as tough as Plague Marines.
Man, I gotta know what you used for the Bio Mech Spawn, and what is that thing behind the Zombies? Maulefiend Count as?
As for the Army, I think some gunline armies (DA and tau) will give you trouble, but those models are too gorgeous not to use. My only other question, why the hades Autocannon on the drake? popping transports / rear armor?
2013/04/18 23:06:15
Subject: Re:Playing around with a CSM 'dark mechanicus' infantry list, 2000 pts.
Thanks for the compliment! the truth is I was very close to doing some kind of conversion like that, it's just that I personally dislike all the lightning trim on the helldrake model. But it's definitely cool for IW. It sort of burned me out building mine.
Nurgle has always been a natural choice to represent something techy I think, because the tech makes them strong like a robot and most nurgle units can also decently shoot mid-range at least. I wanted to use a warpsmith and might still for a more fluffy list, but TBH 6th edition just kind of screwed vehicles... they still can die in one shot no matter how many fancy 5+ rolls they have. Plus I have so much infantry to begin with.
The spawn models are based on Rat Ogres from fantasy, which are a good and cheap model and the conversion was actually not to hard (no real sculpting) you can check out my P&M blog for more on that stuff.
So, I think to refine this list I will try to test it at home against some scary gunline armies.... shooty GK list or Guard lists to start...
2013/04/19 20:54:13
Subject: Re:Playing around with a CSM 'dark mechanicus' infantry list, 2000 pts.
Filch wrote: Your army is wicked sick!
Just play it a few times and then change it.
Thanks! I've not had the chance to play because of conflicts with work... but hoping to get in a game against new Tau this sunday. I like converting, but I also like playing the game and winning (I play against competitive people sometimes), that's why I post here for list advice. It's been helpful so far.
Also I was thinking again about the psychic powers.... maybe with the lvl 3 sorc, I will roll on the telepathy discipline for one of his powers, because psychic shriek is good and all the other nurgle powers are decent.... but there would be a chance of getting something like invisibility (invisible oblits, yay!), hallucination, puppetmaster..
2013/04/22 03:09:44
Subject: Re:Playing around with a CSM 'dark mechanicus' infantry list, 2000 pts.
Your army sir is amazing! I really enjoy all the detail and time that you have put into this.
The list I have a few pointers about. I would suggest dropping three oblits and taking three squads of two with MoN. With the points get an additional Helldrake and have them use the flamers instead of the Autocannon. Vector strike will allow you to deal with most flyers however the bale flamers will allow you to deal with 3+ saves nicely. With the points you also save from another unit of spawn I would suggest getting a squad of CSM or maybe a duel plasma squad of PM, though metals would also be useful. This gives you a little more shooting and possibly mobility.
I managed a test game yesterday, things went fairly well... i played against new tau and I think I made a few mistakes with deployment, wasn't aggressive enough with deepstriking and positioning the spawn. nevertheless the small squads of zombies proved useful for countering overwatch, and the oblits/typhus squad was survivable... the spawn squads were still a good distraction and one made it into enemy lines (game ended early, sort of unconclusive).
I hear you guys on the helldrake, a baleflamer would be much more useful, but then again I would like to be . Again, the problem with that is that it might take me a bit of time to convert another one so for now, I think I'll just use the one (and have fun building up my spawn), but I can surely arm it with a flamer.
also learned with the psychic powers, that they need to be up close to work... I rolled up invisibility on the psychic chart which would have been awesome on three oblits, except I was playing dirty tau who like to cheat with their special goggles and laser pointers, so useless in this game and I went for psychic shriek, which didn't get close enough to use.
so... I'm going to do another test, but this time change my tactics... try to make the army more aggressive. keep the spawn in the middle of the board, so they can threaten anywhere, and deepstrike all three units of oblits with typhys and sorc attached, exactly where they need to be... while the zombies start out as up close as they can and just walk up the board as fast as they can.
some things I'm mulling over.... buying a defense line just for the comms relay, because if i have 4 units coming in from reserve it may just be worth it, to have the helldrake and oblits arrive on time where they need to be.
