Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have a friend that plays daemons, I have never played against daemons before even after hundreds of games. Im looking for some help, and tips to build my list with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I forgot to mention that its 1999+1 and I have every model at my disposal

Well.... Do you know what kind of Daemons it is? Ie. Khorne, Tzeentch etc

If its Khorne, don't try to beat him in assault. Ever. You WILL fail every time.

Also, BA is kinda bad without tailoring.... I would bring SM allies for Null Zone. It is AMAZING against Daemons. I would suggest turtling in a corner if he is DS'in anything. That way you don't get absolutely mauled from behind. Bring Tac squads w/ Plasma + Plasma cannon, its very well rounded. Remember to bring 2-3 SP as well. Dev squads w/ Plasma cannons would be great vs DS'in squads. Maybe even bring a TFC if you do use SM allies. Pummel him with guns from afar.

Lucarikx

I was thinking of making a shooty army with some counter attacking. I dont know too much about daemons im not sure what he will take, im guessing probably blend of things.

How much shooting or anti tank ability do daemons have? I was thinking 2 baals and a land raider or Storm raven with meph and a furioso dread as a wall in front of devs or as a counter unit if I go storm raven. with some asm's as backup

Daemons have a few things going for them, depending on what they play. They have a lot of fast and mean close combat, much of which is good against marines. They have lots of access to psykers, with what I would say are the three best diciplines in the game, divination, telepathy, and biomancy. They also have standard troops that can sit in area terrain on an objective for a 3+ coversave, 2+ if they go to ground.
The armor wall is nice if you can keep him at a distance, otherwise his monsterous creatures can crush them, and those cheap objective holders I mentioned will glance any vehicle on a 6 in CC.

So how to deal with all this, and other things that the codex has? Shooting is a good place to start. as his units will have toughness 3 on most basic troops, they die to massed fire/templates. I dont reccomend the assault marines, but I do not like space marines as CC, your use of them may be better than mine. two baals might make a dent, but remember that flame tanks are often a sacrifice, especially against an army that can move as fast as daemons. the land raider is hard for most of the non-MC units to deal with, and dreadnaughts are actually decent against some of his stuff, because it does not have grenades.

I would suggest 2-4 troops, tac squads are better in my opinion, but assault marines have their place. Storm raven can put out enough firepower to wreck face. defence against psykers is probably a good idea, maybe a librarian to shield your Tac squads and buff with divination. play your stengths against his weaknesses.

Quick daemon overview: Khorne - power swords everywhere, shoot them down. Slanesh - rending claws, high initiative, and telepathy to make you shoot your own guys. Tzeench - pskers all, allied SW with rune priest makes them cry a little. they have the most annoying shooting , but with T4 you should get FNP for surviving it. hit their little guys in CC. They also have divination. built right, a 300pt unit can put out 7d6 shots at S6 AP4 with rerolls to hit, but it is all psychic. Nurgle - shrouded on everything, and his flying MCs can swoop from cover to cover for 3+ cover saves. also has biomancy, for some of the toughest MC's around.

Sorry to textwall you, and I could probably add more, but i'll end with this. The warpstorm table is balanced with itself, but when its hot, you will hate it. it is not his fault, just GW giving us a chaotic book that can really mess with people.

Forgot to mention, everything has a 5++ and the deepstrike rule, but he is bound by the core rules and has to start half his army on the table. good luck and have fun.

Take Mephiston. Daemons don't really have enough reliable shooting to take him out at range so they have to fight him. His high WS and S10 force weapon means you can instant death a Greater Daemon very easily.

So daemons aren't eternal warriors?

Daemons are no longer EW, they lost it with this new book. Daemons can also play as a horde army. mephiston is a tough customer, but so far there are not many models that can fight their points worth of daemonettes and come out alive.

On the other hand, daemons can play a very small elite game with min troops, 2 greater daemons and 3 daemon princes. If you don't have lots of tough anti air, they can mess you up pretty bad. Watch out for fateweaver, there is a nasty combo that can give him a ++2 that he can re-roll.

Sounds like fate weaver is still absurd. Good to know nothing's changed

would you go SR with furioso w/ talons and meph or a LR with meph.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Daemons are no longer EW, they lost it with this new book. Daemons can also play as a horde army. mephiston is a tough customer, but so far there are not many models that can fight their points worth of daemonettes and come out alive.

On the other hand, daemons can play a very small elite game with min troops, 2 greater daemons and 3 daemon princes. If you don't have lots of tough anti air, they can mess you up pretty bad. Watch out for fateweaver, there is a nasty combo that can give him a ++2 that he can re-roll.

So if you are facing the above (I am in a couple of days), going with "lots of anti-air" is a good tactic for me? Concentrate on shooting the Greater Daemons one at a time, or Daemon princes if they're in sight?

As for Mephiston, do you think he could go toe to toe with a Bloodthirster?

I'll give you one specific tip for FMCs, as they are plentiful and effective in the new Daemon codex. You need a one-two firing punch that can either kill or severely hurt it in one round.

First unit should be something with lots of shots...bolter Tacticals, twin linked assault cannons, heavy bolters etc. This is likely to hit and therefore force a grounding test. That's not guaranteed of course, but if it works (or for some silly reason the FMC is already on the ground), you hit it with the second unit... 10 sniper scouts.

Daemon shooting is bad, yes the raw stats on tzeentchian units looks good, but while most weapons just stop at doing nothing upon bad rolls, warpflame gives you stackable feel no pain on bad rolls. Enough bad rolls can make warpflame targets invulnerable. Slaanesh units are fast but as a rule cannot sustain hits, shoot them and they will crumble easily. Nurglite units are tough but universally slow, and plaguebearers got nerfed hard, pour his strength shots into them and charge them when they seem weakened. Khorne is balanced, but avoid assault if possible and remember, his units have no grenades, so if they assault through cover break out the evil laughter. Daemons are still mediocre at best against vehicles and aircraft so exploit this ruthlessly.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:


As for Mephiston, do you think he could go toe to toe with a Bloodthirster?

A BT will take his lunch money in one round of combat.....

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:


As for Mephiston, do you think he could go toe to toe with a Bloodthirster?

A BT will take his lunch money in one round of combat.....

Lucarikx

At base Strength, a BT needs a 4+ just to wound Mephiston. It's unlikely he'll cause 5 wounds in a single round of combat, though he causes ID on 6's to wound. However, Mephiston will destroy the other Greater Daemons provided he passes his psychic tests.

Mephiston faces a big problem against many MCs - they all have AP2, and he has *NO* invulnerable save. It's all a question of how well you fancy your chances that he'll survive the first round AND manage a wound and a Psychic test.
So, things like Daemon Princes and GUO's - usually ok. But a Bloodthirster... well. There is no single model that can even hold a candle against a Bloodthirster in close combat.

After reading this Ive got a few lists im looking at using.

List 1


List 2

 Super Ready wrote:
Mephiston faces a big problem against many MCs - they all have AP2, and he has *NO* invulnerable save. It's all a question of how well you fancy your chances that he'll survive the first round AND manage a wound and a Psychic test.
So, things like Daemon Princes and GUO's - usually ok. But a Bloodthirster... well. There is no single model that can even hold a candle against a Bloodthirster in close combat.

A csm daemon prince kitted out with a black mace and mastery 3 can eat a blood thirster up provided he gets either warp speed, enfeeble, or iron arm. Which there is a good chance he will. This is luck dependent and expensive though. Invisibility also works well.

Also never let terminators get in combat with daemonettes or seekers. It just a bad day overall.

If you are tailoring for demons, I'd just shoot. Get lots of TL HF razors.

DONT TRY TO FIGHT THEM IN CC!!! I play daemons as my main force, and they can grab AP2 for 10 points. If you think mephiston is gonna save you in any way (especially at 2000) you are dead wrong. There goes 250 points of usless crap that barely slowed a Bloodthirster/Lord of Change/herald with AP2 and tons of troops - hell a 10 man squad of bloodletters will go through him (100 points right for that squad btw).

So, what do blood angels have over daemons? not much im afraid. Your best bet is Stormravens as daemon anti-air is pretty poor against AV12. You can also outshoot them but if they play the right list that may not last too long. They potentially and should have a least a few units that are VERY fast or if not, your looking at lots of AP3/tough as nails units to crack matching down the board, which is equally not as fun.

Tanks as a whole could be a good idea, with STR8 -10 (preferably 10 ) shooting to ID guys and also transports. Try a sternguard squad with corbulo and a libararian in a pod, they could ignoe cover saves and pump out a lot of shots and take a charge as well. Try to kite the enemy around, focusing on one thing at a time. It should be a tough match but if you overwhelm them at key locations and manage to kkep your objectives at all costs whilst gunning down the enemy, you should win.

Again, Daemons are evr diverse so all of this info could mean nothing when you face a completely different army build. Assess their pros and cons (all daemon armies have con of some form) and exploit them. Hitting from multiple angles could work as well (aka drop pod sternguard, jump troops, plamsa cannon devs and a ball pred).

Sorry for the long post and rambling

Yep, stay way the hell back and blow them up. Kite if you gotta . Daemons will take your lunch money in close combat quite easily. I'd not really bother with too much armor either, as they have several good can opener units. Screamers are really good at getting at the tasty things inside of metal boxes. Watch out for MCs, and bring whatever you have that can drop them fast. As stated, though, there's MANY ways they can loadout. Be very very weary of Khorne and Nurgle MCs. You will not kill an unclean one, and bloodthirsters will kill whatever they are close to with ease. Try to make sure that you take out heralds where possible, as it will make the rest of the unit a LOT easier to deal with.

I'd kite whenever possible. In fact, I have been known to kill as much of an opponent's ranged firepower and kite lists not normally kited.