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Hi so i'm pretty new to WH40k and i'm trying to decide what would suit my C:SM army better, I want my army to be mostly shooty with the exception of the delivery of assault terminators. Could someone explain the pros and cons of the land raider and storm raven for terminator transport, or other uses in general? Thanks

Land Raider
+ AV14 and 4HP
+ Can hold more Termies depending if you go for the Crusader

- Expensive
- Vulnerable to Melta

Storm Raven
+ Much faster
+ Better choice of weapons
+ Can deploy after Zooming
+ Can take Locator Beacons to prevent risk of losing Termies to Crash and Burn

- Weaker armour

is there someone taht could math hammer this with comparable storm raven vs raiders? i would like to know myself and some math would be helpful...

I would lean towards the storm raven as it is a bit harder to hit at the very least, nut the weaker armour may counter that, though I am not sure how much.

I'm just going to be blunt. Don't put your Termies in the Storm Raven, this will be at least a 400 point invest, andif someone gets a single lucky shot. . . . . . . .goodbye dudes.

The Storm Raven much better left as a gunship and not a transport, where its the total opposite for a land raider.

Use the Land Raider when you absolutely have to get your guys where they are suppose to be.

Use the Storm Raven to deal with other flyers, and to put a lot of fire on target you consider a threat. The Storm Raven has PotMS so you can fire an extra weapon at full BS, so 5 shots, not 4, very important.

Also, stay away from the Land Raider Redeemer as its very hard to get both of its flamer templates on the same target, nigh immpossible.

Just my two cents, someone who knows more will be along later. I'm just a dude bored at work.

Well if its one say attack bike with 1 multi-melta at optimum range.
and if my mathfoo is correct.

you have a 19.4% chance of blowing up a land raider
and a 1.8% chance of blowing up a storm raven

I have used both as a assault delivery system. A crusader for my BT and a storm raven for my GK. Out my experience a landraider is much better for this purpose. 14 armor can shrug off most weapons and if it does go down early at least your terminators covered some ground. Since a storm raven is a flyer your looking at 3rd or 4th turn charge, plus if it does go down while in the air chances are you will loose the majority of your terminators. There is to much risk in using a storm raven for a assault unit.

If you want to assault out of the thing, land raider. For everything else, stormraven. Land raiders have a pretty meh firepower with most weapons being mounted so low they can be blocked or cover saves granted. Stormraven has TL MM that has a 40% chance of exploding any vehicle anywhere on the board the turn the stormraven comes on. Throw in the TL AC and missiles and the stormraven is a much better bet to be doing damage. Its also more resilient vs most of the things that kill vehicles and is less inconvenienced by jink with POTMS.

Don't ever put anything you care about in a Stormraven. Unfortunately, for us BA, that's every model we have. As other people have mentioned, you have the double whammy of reserves and the instagib goodness of crashing. AV 12 HP 3 isn't that incredibly hard to shoot down.

Terminators in a land raider are a hedge against all kinds of annoying stuff. Plus, they can assault on turn 1 if need be. Like say some grey hunters visit you in a pod. Or a demon pays you a visit.

I own a crusader as my only landraider, but I'd consider the Godhammer for sure in 6th edition. But, I'm a lascannon whore in 6th and make no apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I neglected to comment that I don't care for the redeemer as it must get very close to use its flamers. Meltabomb close.

These are all great tips, thanks a lot guys! So having both a land raider as transport and a storm raven as a gunship could be viable in the same army?

Martel732 wrote:
Don't ever put anything you care about in a Stormraven. Unfortunately, for us BA, that's every model we have. As other people have mentioned, you have the double whammy of reserves and the instagib goodness of crashing. AV 12 HP 3 isn't that incredibly hard to shoot down.

Terminators in a land raider are a hedge against all kinds of annoying stuff. Plus, they can assault on turn 1 if need be. Like say some grey hunters visit you in a pod. Or a demon pays you a visit.

I own a crusader as my only landraider, but I'd consider the Godhammer for sure in 6th edition. But, I'm a lascannon whore in 6th and make no apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I neglected to comment that I don't care for the redeemer as it must get very close to use its flamers. Meltabomb close.

Granted its close for comfort, but the amount of carnage that on can reap with it (Redeemer) is silly. Besides, the LR has PotMS too, so use it to scorch some MEQs while they are at it. I really like the flamer templates that are ap3. My opinion is such because my meta has lots of CC in it, with the main player i fight are Zerker spam CSMs, so the ap3 is very helpful.

Good thing about Crusader is it has more capacity, though it won't kill as much as the Redeemer, it does the killing safely. Storm Ravens is better off as a gunship, and as more skyfire filters in, it will die faster, and there isn't a good amount of anti-AV14 right now.

What's the value of a LR as a fire support unit, holding back with a TAC squad inside, and waiting until the second half of the game to try to zoom up and let that squad assault out onto an enemy-held objective? WIll the LR survive, or will it get assaulted by a Monstrous creature or shot before it can accomplish that?

It works well with a stock LR with the lascannons. Spend a few turns popping things, then dump some assault troops on something that's getting too close.

Lots of points, but it works...

 Van-Zan wrote:
These are all great tips, thanks a lot guys! So having both a land raider as transport and a storm raven as a gunship could be viable in the same army?

Yes.

I have experimented with Land Raiders and Storm Eagles (not Stormraven, but close enough) for assault unit transportation... and Land Raiders win out easily. I'm not even worried about getting shot down and losing a squad - the real killer with flying transports is that you're not going to be able to assault anything until Turn 3 at the earliest. If you're relying on an assault unit, that could be crippling if they don't arrive. At least with a Land Raider, you're looking at a Turn 2 assault in all likelihood (maybe even Turn 1 if you're going second). Plus AV14 is becoming far more survivable with the emphasis on S7 (plus Broadside refocusing) and the ready availability of cover for vehicles in 6th.

Bottom-line: Land Raiders > Stormravens in terms of transport ability.

The LR got a big shot in the arm with the reduced availability of STR 10 72" guns. The big bane is the same as it has always been: melta.

From a firepower/gunship standpoint, the storm raven can basically be a cheaper LR crusader: Hurricane bolters? Check. Multi-melta? Check. Oh wait and one other weapon too...and I'll fire a missile for good measure (I also moved 18" fyi) All for cheaper than a crusader.

 greyknight12 wrote:
From a firepower/gunship standpoint, the storm raven can basically be a cheaper LR crusader: Hurricane bolters? Check. Multi-melta? Check. Oh wait and one other weapon too...and I'll fire a missile for good measure (I also moved 18" fyi) All for cheaper than a crusader.

Thats true, yet the survivability of a Stormraven is lower than a LRC with similar loadout; AV12 w/ 3HP isn't the best armor in the game, and skyfire is more prevelant; which is one of two reasons the flying transport isn't a hot idea. the other being having to wait for a T3 assault.

It really is a tough one. As a gk player, I now always run double ravens in all my lists. We lack melta/plasma throught the army so its a welcome addition, the ability to come in up to 36" and kill a raider is just amazing. Also the mind-strike missiles are great at killing enemy psykers.

However, I would never use them to put troops in, except 20 points of henchman for taking objectives. I use them as gunships to kill tanks and infantry alike.

If you want a transport, take a raider. If you want a hard to kill gunship that can take out lots of targets, take the raven.

If your enemy is lacking in AA ability, Storm Ravens will pretty much hand you battle field control on a silver platter, and they're amazingly customizable units. Them being quite tough for a flier doesn't hurt either! While using them primarily as a transport isn't the best use of them, they can still ferry around big enough squads to mess up a plan in a pinch. Even with a good deal of skyfire they're usually capable of surviving long enough to get something impressive done unless your enemy is packing a lot of S7+ skyfire weapons (helldrakes, missilesides, and vendettas will ruin your day in a hurry).

What a land raider is used for depends heavily on what kind of land raider you're using. Redeemers and Crusaders are all about getting into your enemy's face and dumping out a lot of termies while spewing out a crap ton of dakka. Crusaders are more transport oriented (hurricane bolters are okayish but not gamechangers by any means), while Redeemers emphasize the fire support role more with their "what MEQ squad?" flamethrowers.

Ares land raiders will murderize everything within 24', Terminus Ultras are excellent (if pricey) tank destroyers to spite Tankguard lists, Prometheus' are ireedemable fail, Helios' are essentially very pricey snipers that can carry troops for some odd reason (i'd honestly rather have them have autocannons or missile launchers than carry a half sized squad), Achilles are meant to be frustrating to kill bunkers that can plop down in one area and effectively deny that area for the rest of the game, Proteus tanks can do just about anything you want them to, and Spartan Assault tanks are essentially Land raiders +1. 20 odd marines splurging out of a vehicle is going to ruin anybody's day.

The thing you didn't mention is how reserve rolls with Stormravens can lose you the game. I've actually beat several lists I should not have because they loaded troops in Stormravens and I was able to engage their list piecemeal.

Well, its a trade-off and so the choice will depend on the rest of your army. Here the objective function to be maximized is synergy.