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Still a new nid player, and still relatively new to 40k, so forgive any questions to which there may well be an obvious answer.

Anyway, am I wrong in thinking that a 2x TL Dev flyrant is really underwhelming in combat? As everything gets a save against its attacks (unless you smash) then its only got 5 on the charge right? Granted it usually hits on 3's and wounds on 2's but against anything with a 4+ save or better thats still not many kills. I just try to keep mine out of CC unless its to smash a small Tac squad or a vehicle.
Should I being doing anything differently?

And just to check ive been doing things right, a Nid model does not get a bonus attack for having a pair of CC weapon biomorphs right? I.e. A Ravener with Rending Claws, or a Carnifex with 2 sets of Scything Talons, or Warriors with a pair of Boneswords?
I assume their attacks are already shown in their stats, and they dont receive additional attacks for a pair of CC weapons as some other armies do when taking additional wargear?

By virtue of being a monstrous creature, all of the hive tyrants attacks are ap2. You should have no problem in CC. Just don't go jumping into terminator squads.

 Thaylen wrote:
By virtue of being a monstrous creature, all of the hive tyrants attacks are ap2. You should have no problem in CC. Just don't go jumping into terminator squads.

I thought that was only Smash attacks? I thought you can half your attacks and go S10 AP2. So are all the Tyrants attacks S6 (base) and AP2? That being all 5 on the charge?

They used to be a must have unit for AA purposes until for whatever reason their effectiveness against fliers was FAQ'd away by saying they can only snapshot at them. They can still be good for blasting into something's rear armor for massive damage, but Lictors can do that without putting such a high priced unit in the line of fire. Also, Tyranids don't receive more attacks for more CCWs but their effects do stack, in some cases (scything talons) doubling up on them turns a fairly "meh" effect into a very devastating one.

Generally speaking, Carnifexes aren't terribly good at melee, especially since they lost armorbane in 6e and smash hurts them much more than it helps. They would be good gun platforms but they're big, they can't get 2+ saves, and most of their guns range from "decent" (barbed stranglers) to "unreasonably terrible" (deathspitters and HVCs) with the exception of devourers, which can annoy aircraft and spam glancing shots on most vehicles.

If you absolutely must have melee fexes, Stonecrushers are your best bet, especially since standard C-fex killing tactics (missile spam being the most prominent) will just bounce off IWND and 2+ armor saves (have a Tervigon give it FNP too if you really want to see people throw a hissy fit). Unless your opponent has AP 1-2 out the wazoo it will get to it's target and it will ruin something's day.

As for Tyrants vs infantry squads, no. No, no, no, no. Using Tyrants against large heaps of infantry is not good. Especially not for Flyrants. Flyrants should use their mobility to get to softer vehicle armor, using them against infantry bogs down your Flyrant which given that it's a premium resource is not good.

Tyranids are way overstuffed on anti-infantry anyway.

Also, MCs ignore armor saves in melee, (they don't get AP1-2 though, that'd mean they'd get bonuses on vehicle damage rolls! so they just ignore saves) even if they have no CCWs they still ignore saves. And yes, using them against TEQs is generally a terrible idea as most TEQs have AP2 equivalent weapons and hit hard enough to blow through toughness.

 Kain wrote:
They used to be a must have unit for AA purposes until for whatever reason their effectiveness against fliers was FAQ'd away by saying they can only snapshot at them. They can still be good for blasting into something's rear armor for massive damage, but Lictors can do that without putting such a high priced unit in the line of fire. Also, Tyranids don't receive more attacks for more CCWs but their effects do stack, in some cases (scything talons) doubling up on them turns a fairly "meh" effect into a very devastating one.

Generally speaking, Carnifexes aren't terribly good at melee, especially since they lost armorbane in 6e and smash hurts them much more than it helps. They would be good gun platforms but they're big, they can't get 2+ saves, and most of their guns range from "decent" (barbed stranglers) to "unreasonably terrible" (deathspitters and HVCs) with the exception of devourers, which can annoy aircraft and spam glancing shots on most vehicles.

If you absolutely must have melee fexes, Stonecrushers are your best bet, especially since standard C-fex killing tactics (missile spam being the most prominent) will just bounce off IWND and 2+ armor saves (have a Tervigon give it FNP too if you really want to see people throw a hissy fit). Unless your opponent has AP 1-2 out the wazoo it will get to it's target and it will ruin something's day.

As for Tyrants vs infantry squads, no. No, no, no, no. Using Tyrants against large heaps of infantry is not good. Especially not for Flyrants. Flyrants should use their mobility to get to softer vehicle armor, using them against infantry bogs down your Flyrant which given that it's a premium resource is not good.

Tyranids are way overstuffed on anti-infantry anyway.

Also, MCs ignore armor saves in melee, (they don't get AP1-2 though, that'd mean they'd get bonuses on vehicle damage rolls! so they just ignore saves) even if they have no CCWs they still ignore saves. And yes, using them against TEQs is generally a terrible idea as most TEQs have AP2 equivalent weapons and hit hard enough to blow through toughness.

I was just using the Fexes as an example of something with a pair of CC weapons. I agree with you that ive found them pretty underwhelming.

And Swooping Flyrants still have Skyfire

But its good to know that MC's ignore armour saves in CC. This just pushed them up a notch for me! It now makes more sense why Smash is S10 AP2, for the +1 on the damage chart.

Thanks a lot guys.

 HerbaciousT wrote:

 Kain wrote:
They used to be a must have unit for AA purposes until for whatever reason their effectiveness against fliers was FAQ'd away by saying they can only snapshot at them. They can still be good for blasting into something's rear armor for massive damage, but Lictors can do that without putting such a high priced unit in the line of fire. Also, Tyranids don't receive more attacks for more CCWs but their effects do stack, in some cases (scything talons) doubling up on them turns a fairly "meh" effect into a very devastating one.

Generally speaking, Carnifexes aren't terribly good at melee, especially since they lost armorbane in 6e and smash hurts them much more than it helps. They would be good gun platforms but they're big, they can't get 2+ saves, and most of their guns range from "decent" (barbed stranglers) to "unreasonably terrible" (deathspitters and HVCs) with the exception of devourers, which can annoy aircraft and spam glancing shots on most vehicles.

If you absolutely must have melee fexes, Stonecrushers are your best bet, especially since standard C-fex killing tactics (missile spam being the most prominent) will just bounce off IWND and 2+ armor saves (have a Tervigon give it FNP too if you really want to see people throw a hissy fit). Unless your opponent has AP 1-2 out the wazoo it will get to it's target and it will ruin something's day.

As for Tyrants vs infantry squads, no. No, no, no, no. Using Tyrants against large heaps of infantry is not good. Especially not for Flyrants. Flyrants should use their mobility to get to softer vehicle armor, using them against infantry bogs down your Flyrant which given that it's a premium resource is not good.

Tyranids are way overstuffed on anti-infantry anyway.

Also, MCs ignore armor saves in melee, (they don't get AP1-2 though, that'd mean they'd get bonuses on vehicle damage rolls! so they just ignore saves) even if they have no CCWs they still ignore saves. And yes, using them against TEQs is generally a terrible idea as most TEQs have AP2 equivalent weapons and hit hard enough to blow through toughness.

I was just using the Fexes as an example of something with a pair of CC weapons. I agree with you that ive found them pretty underwhelming.

And Swooping Flyrants still have Skyfire

But its good to know that MC's ignore armour saves in CC. This just pushed them up a notch for me! It now makes more sense why Smash is S10 AP2, for the +1 on the damage chart.

Thanks a lot guys.

Glad to be of help.

As for Smash, the general trend was to buff most MCs which tended to be kind of suckish in 5e. For most monstrous creatures, having their attacks but doubling their strength and getting a bonus on vehicle damage rolls is a godsend, well worth the loss of armorbane. For Carnifexes who already have S9-10 and don't have that many attacks to begin with losing armorbane was the worst thing ever. Ironically this makes crushing claws more of a need to have against vehicles as without armorbane you will need a substantially larger volume of attacks to crack vehicles whether or not you're using smash. Given the ambiguity of whether furious charge affects living battering ram, your initiative wasn't going to be all that good anyway since you're almost certainly going to have adrenal glands on that thing as they're dirt cheap for a good bonus.

On flyrants, they are an invaluable asset but don't trust them to be the lynchpin of your army. The heart and soul of most Tyranid armies is still gaunts and tervigons. Flyrants just make getting rid of medium and light vehicles a whole lot easier and somewhat reduces the need for hive guards everywhere. And did they backtrack on taking skyfire from Flyrants? Good to know that I'll be able to do more than stare impotently at fliers and devote unreasonable amounts of firepower to dealing with them.

If you really want a close combat mulching HQ, take the Swarmlord, throw tyrant guards at him, and roll on Biomancy and/or Telekinesis. Rolling Iron arm+Warp speed will lead to hilarity as your opponent desperately tries to kill a unit with higher stats than a biotitan with 8-9 instant death attacks that can crack open land raiders. It's a bit of a gamble, but if it works the Swarmlord becomes unquestionably the deadliest stabby HQ unit in the game, outstripping the likes of Abaddon, kitted out Overlords, or Waaagh!ing Gazghkull with ease. I've run the math, and generally only royal court disco infernos or gargantuan MCs can do much more than mildly inconvenience a hulked out Swarmlord in melee. i've had that thing mulch An'ggrath, yes, the uber-bloodthirster.

I can't find the rule for MC's or FMC's ignoring armour saves without smashing. Is this correct, and if so, where is it stated?

athedge wrote:
I can't find the rule for MC's or FMC's ignoring armour saves without smashing. Is this correct, and if so, where is it stated?

IIRC smash gives ap2 by default and let's you reroll armor penetration and double your strengh on halving attacks. So I wax wrong earlier, but it does make MCs a lot better, the loss of armor bane is painful for already uber high strength MCs with few attacks like carnifexes though.

Ah so you still get armour saves against MC attacks if the do not smash?

That is correct.

Unless 1+ saves are a thing now, no. It's AP2 by default. So you ignore armor saves and get that bonus on the damage chart regardless if you decide to smash. Whether this is worth the loss of armor bane depends on whom you ask. Overall 6e monstrous creatures more reliably do damage but 5e monstrous creatures could do wonders against vehicles with a bit of luck. Locking MCs into melee with infantry is usually a pretty bad idea though, they tend to have poor initiative, lack the volume of attacks to chew through blobs, and grenades will ruin your day.

 Kain wrote:
Unless 1+ saves are a thing now, no. It's AP2 by default. So you ignore armor saves and get that bonus on the damage chart regardless if you decide to smash. Whether this is worth the loss of armor bane depends on whom you ask. Overall 6e monstrous creatures more reliably do damage but 5e monstrous creatures could do wonders against vehicles with a bit of luck. Locking MCs into melee with infantry is usually a pretty bad idea though, they tend to have poor initiative, lack the volume of attacks to chew through blobs, and grenades will ruin your day.

Hang on youve confused me again (easily done, im very sleep deprived).

You do not get armour saves against Smash as its S10 AP2. This I get.

Standard MC attacks have no AP as far as I am aware, so you still get an armour save (as athedge said).

Or does it say somewhere in the rulebook that MC standard attacks (not smash attacks) are AP2?

 Kain wrote:
They used to be a must have unit for AA purposes until for whatever reason their effectiveness against fliers was FAQ'd away by saying they can only snapshot at them.

You have that the wrong way around. FMC's in the rulebook do not gain Skyfire against other flyers when Swooping, so they were not good at anti air. The BRB FAQ cleared it up so FMCs gain Skyfire against other flyers when Swooping, so now they are Tyranids go-to Skyfire model.

Again, where does it say that MC's are AP2 by default? I believe this is wrong.

 HerbaciousT wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Unless 1+ saves are a thing now, no. It's AP2 by default. So you ignore armor saves and get that bonus on the damage chart regardless if you decide to smash. Whether this is worth the loss of armor bane depends on whom you ask. Overall 6e monstrous creatures more reliably do damage but 5e monstrous creatures could do wonders against vehicles with a bit of luck. Locking MCs into melee with infantry is usually a pretty bad idea though, they tend to have poor initiative, lack the volume of attacks to chew through blobs, and grenades will ruin your day.

Hang on youve confused me again (easily done, im very sleep deprived).

You do not get armour saves against Smash as its S10 AP2. This I get.

Standard MC attacks have no AP as far as I am aware, so you still get an armour save (as athedge said).

Or does it say somewhere in the rulebook that MC standard attacks (not smash attacks) are AP2?

Smash grants AP2 by default, but lets you take a special action that lets you hit with double strength and reroll armor pen and still have AP2. The old rule was straight up armor bane and ignore armor saves, and again which is more useful depends on whether you want the more surefire smash rule which usually has a better median for anti-vehicle work that comes at an opportunity cost, or prefer the more random extra d6 that could on occasion let a harpy carve open a land raider. All MCs get smash by virtue of being a monstrous creature, and to my knowledge no non monstrous creature has smash because reasons.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Kain wrote:
They used to be a must have unit for AA purposes until for whatever reason their effectiveness against fliers was FAQ'd away by saying they can only snapshot at them.

You have that the wrong way around. FMC's in the rulebook do not gain Skyfire against other flyers when Swooping, so they were not good at anti air. The BRB FAQ cleared it up so FMCs gain Skyfire against other flyers when Swooping, so now they are Tyranids go-to Skyfire model.

Ah thanks, that should help against those damned doom scythes.

athedge wrote:
Again, where does it say that MC's are AP2 by default? I believe this is wrong.

The Smash rule. The very first sentence says that they are AP 2, in addition to being able to halve their attacks to double their strength. So they are always AP2 because of Smash, they also have the option to halve their attacks and double their strength. Doing this, as per the first sentence, retains AP2.

Ah, and there is the confusion. I thought you meant that MC's are AP2 by default whether they smash or not. Enemies still get to take saves against a non-smashing MC (unless equipped with other AP weapons, like the Dreadknight, obviously).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh,ok, my bad. Thx for the info!

Smash has been the cause for a lot of confusion, but I think it's because it's actually not a poorly written rule. People look for problems with it.

Basic effect is, as per the first sentence, it grants AP2 to all attacks.

Then, it grants the ability to do double strength hits at half attacks.

Doing one does not activate or deactivate the other. One is a passive effect (AP2) and one is an active effect (double strength).

 -Loki- wrote:
Smash has been the cause for a lot of confusion, but I think it's because it's actually not a poorly written rule. People look for problems with it.

Basic effect is, as per the first sentence, it grants AP2 to all attacks.

Then, it grants the ability to do double strength hits at half attacks.

Doing one does not activate or deactivate the other. One is a passive effect (AP2) and one is an active effect (double strength).

So a Hive Tyrant would have:

4 attacks base +1 for charging = 5 attacks hitting at S6 (base) AP2

OR

Elect to halve its attacks (giving it 2 attacks) and hit at S10 AP2 and gain a re-roll for armour penetration.

Is this correct?

 HerbaciousT wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Smash has been the cause for a lot of confusion, but I think it's because it's actually not a poorly written rule. People look for problems with it.

Basic effect is, as per the first sentence, it grants AP2 to all attacks.

Then, it grants the ability to do double strength hits at half attacks.

Doing one does not activate or deactivate the other. One is a passive effect (AP2) and one is an active effect (double strength).

So a Hive Tyrant would have:

4 attacks base +1 for charging = 5 attacks hitting at S6 (base) AP2

OR

Elect to halve its attacks (giving it 2 attacks) and hit at S10 AP2 and gain a re-roll for armour penetration.

Is this correct?

Yep. Generally if the enemy has a rear AV of more than 10 then you should always smash. AV11 is dicey and given how the Tyranid army is not a particularly forgiving one you really don't want to count on the blessings of lady luck too much. Against AV10 it's up to you, smashing will pretty much garauntee it gets penned, but as we all know, penetration doesn't always translate to knocking it out of the game. More attacks has an okayish chance of getting more damage table rolls to hit something good.

Still, smashing is generally the best bet against vehicles. Unless you're using a carnifex in which case my advice is to curl into a fetal position and cry.

 HerbaciousT wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Smash has been the cause for a lot of confusion, but I think it's because it's actually not a poorly written rule. People look for problems with it.

Basic effect is, as per the first sentence, it grants AP2 to all attacks.

Then, it grants the ability to do double strength hits at half attacks.

Doing one does not activate or deactivate the other. One is a passive effect (AP2) and one is an active effect (double strength).

So a Hive Tyrant would have:

4 attacks base +1 for charging = 5 attacks hitting at S6 (base) AP2

OR

Elect to halve its attacks (giving it 2 attacks) and hit at S10 AP2 and gain a re-roll for armour penetration.

Is this correct?

Correct

Awesome. Thanks very much all!

 HerbaciousT wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Smash has been the cause for a lot of confusion, but I think it's because it's actually not a poorly written rule. People look for problems with it.

Basic effect is, as per the first sentence, it grants AP2 to all attacks.

Then, it grants the ability to do double strength hits at half attacks.

Doing one does not activate or deactivate the other. One is a passive effect (AP2) and one is an active effect (double strength).

So a Hive Tyrant would have:

4 attacks base +1 for charging = 5 attacks hitting at S6 (base) AP2

OR

Elect to halve its attacks (giving it 2 attacks) and hit at S10 AP2 and gain a re-roll for armour penetration.

Is this correct?

I have to disagree with this.

The hive tyrant would have:

1 Hammer of Wrath attack without ap + 4 attacks with ap2 + 1 for charging with ap2. All of them resolved at S6.

OR

1 Hammer of Wrath at S6 without ap + 2 attacks with S10 ap2 + 1 for charging with S10 ap2.

I don't see this as being weak in melee. But as said before, stay clear if those Terminators as they will generally stay alive with inv saves and then destroy you with power fists.

Not to mention that flyrants don't have enough attacks for reliable anti-TEQ work, at best you can kill five terminators or two meganobs wihout a bonesword or implant attack, on the return swing your Tyrant is almost garaunteed to go splat. Against assault terminators you may as well be using hash language unless they'e lightning claw terminators for some unfathomable reason and you have armoured shell.

 Kain wrote:
Not to mention that flyrants don't have enough attacks for reliable anti-TEQ work, at best you can kill five terminators or two meganobs wihout a bonesword or implant attack, on the return swing your Tyrant is almost garaunteed to go splat. Against assault terminators you may as well be using hash language unless they'e lightning claw terminators for some unfathomable reason and you have armoured shell.

How are boneswords going to help you against Terminators?

Unless you are fighting multi-wound models (which can also be dealt with using Smash double S attacks), boneswords are as useful as the AP 2 you get from Smash. The only difference is the whip, but that thing loses its charm with power fist Terminators.

The double Devourer Flyrant is almost as strong in melee as a melee kitted Flyrant. If you want to make it deadlier... I'd suggest using Toxin Sacs. These things let you reroll failed To Wound rolls if your S is higher than the enemy's T for a mere 10 pts.

 Hansisaf wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Not to mention that flyrants don't have enough attacks for reliable anti-TEQ work, at best you can kill five terminators or two meganobs wihout a bonesword or implant attack, on the return swing your Tyrant is almost garaunteed to go splat. Against assault terminators you may as well be using hash language unless they'e lightning claw terminators for some unfathomable reason and you have armoured shell.

How are boneswords going to help you against Terminators?

Unless you are fighting multi-wound models (which can also be dealt with using Smash double S attacks), boneswords are as useful as the AP 2 you get from Smash. The only difference is the whip, but that thing loses its charm with power fist Terminators.

The double Devourer Flyrant is almost as strong in melee as a melee kitted Flyrant. If you want to make it deadlier... I'd suggest using Toxin Sacs. These things let you reroll failed To Wound rolls if your S is higher than the enemy's T for a mere 10 pts.

Armour saves can not be taken by wounds created from the bones sword, pg 83 Tyranid Codex.

 g0atsticks wrote:

 Hansisaf wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Not to mention that flyrants don't have enough attacks for reliable anti-TEQ work, at best you can kill five terminators or two meganobs wihout a bonesword or implant attack, on the return swing your Tyrant is almost garaunteed to go splat. Against assault terminators you may as well be using hash language unless they'e lightning claw terminators for some unfathomable reason and you have armoured shell.

How are boneswords going to help you against Terminators?

Unless you are fighting multi-wound models (which can also be dealt with using Smash double S attacks), boneswords are as useful as the AP 2 you get from Smash. The only difference is the whip, but that thing loses its charm with power fist Terminators.

The double Devourer Flyrant is almost as strong in melee as a melee kitted Flyrant. If you want to make it deadlier... I'd suggest using Toxin Sacs. These things let you reroll failed To Wound rolls if your S is higher than the enemy's T for a mere 10 pts.

Armour saves can not be taken by wounds created from the bones sword, pg 83 Tyranid Codex.

Thats his point. If Tyrants normal attacks are now AP2 anyway and they can Double Strength Smash to ID multi-wound models, then ID from a Bonesword isnt too useful.

Id say that Old Adversary is better than TS, and it affects both Shooting and Assault.

 HerbaciousT wrote:
Id say that Old Adversary is better than TS, and it affects both Shooting and Assault.

Better and more expensive...

 Hansisaf wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Not to mention that flyrants don't have enough attacks for reliable anti-TEQ work, at best you can kill five terminators or two meganobs wihout a bonesword or implant attack, on the return swing your Tyrant is almost garaunteed to go splat. Against assault terminators you may as well be using hash language unless they'e lightning claw terminators for some unfathomable reason and you have armoured shell.

How are boneswords going to help you against Terminators?

Unless you are fighting multi-wound models (which can also be dealt with using Smash double S attacks), boneswords are as useful as the AP 2 you get from Smash. The only difference is the whip, but that thing loses its charm with power fist Terminators.

The double Devourer Flyrant is almost as strong in melee as a melee kitted Flyrant. If you want to make it deadlier... I'd suggest using Toxin Sacs. These things let you reroll failed To Wound rolls if your S is higher than the enemy's T for a mere 10 pts.

Sorry, should have specified, IA and the Sword are for meganobs, who would otherwise quite likely reduce your Tyrant into pulp the moment they swing back because otherwise due to their status as multiple wound units, you simply can't drop enough of them to prevent them from getting enough PK attacks from turning the Tyrant into hamburger. The same goes for PK nobs and Paladins.

Tyranids shouldn't be trying to take on Terminators, Meganobz or Paladins in assault. The best we can throw at them are MC's, Genestealers or Bonesword Warriors or Shrikes.

Genestealers can't reliably get to them anymore thanks to no assaulting from reserves. Bonesword Warriors have the same problem. Bonesword Shrikes are far too fragile - they might kill a few but won't survive return attacks at all. MC's will kill a few, but will be turned into a Jackson Pollock when the retun hits arrive. Tyranids sadly don't have access to Invulnerable saves outside of the Swarmlord and Zoanthropes, so taking on those kinds of units in assault is suicide.

Tyranids should be dealing with them with what they do best. Weight of fire. Tyranids have no shortage of anti infantry firepower. While it will take a lot, Tyranids have the ability to bring a lot. Devourers, Deathspitters, Brainleech Devourers, Cluster Spines, Bio Electric Pulse, Containment Spines, lots and lots and lots of Fleshborers. Lots of weapons that are either high strength, high RoF, or both. Force saves, take them down.

It takes a lot of shots - they're expensive deathstar units, they're meant to be tough. But, as deathstar units, they're expensive, and every model taken down is a felt loss. Every Termagant killed in return is laughed off as a Tervigon pumps another brood out.