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Since the release of the new Tau update, it has become damn near impossible to beat a Tau army with someone who has a mediocre knowledge of how to play them. Between support fire, all the AP 2 stuff running around, the broadsides anti air, the far superior range in shooting (as well as a better BS) and crisis suits always getting a cover save due to their stealth/shrouded induced armor, AND twin linked weapons only count as a single weapon now (Smart missle systems and high yield missle pods are twin linked)... it hass become somewhat demoralizing playing against them. Even when running with maxed out mega nobz it is a struggle to even get within charge range with half of the unit you once had. Anybody have any decent tactics the use when playing the new Tau?

ork (nob)bikers trukks and stormboyz have one me one game, green tide one win one loose, for me speed seemed to be the best and storm boyz that charge the turn they arrive from reserve

I guess you can no longer beat Tau just like you used to do it. You have to figure out the new weaknesses of the Tau army (and there are some you might use) to crush them. Phatonic gave you some ideas...

Learn, and adapt, Tau won't go down easily.

I wonder how battle wagon orks would fair against Gunline Tau? Shove three or four wagons loaded with boyz and mega nobz down their throat and see if they can deal with that many threats. Depending on the Tau list they may struggle with the AV14 saturation and then a huge multiple assault.

As you said, it all depends on the Tau list. Spammed AV14 can cause troubles if the opponent failed to have some Fusion Blasters here and around. The thing is, almost every Tau play has noticed by now that with good ol' Railsides gone, the only reliable anti-heavies is Fusion Blaster... and a Tau Crisis Suit can pick two of these...

Tau's weakness are hand to hand and their poor ballistic skill. Yeah... I know, as an ork, you'd kill a grot in front of their mother for a BS of 3, but in the wider world, missing half of your shots straight out of the gate is bad.

Problem is, neither of these weaknesses are easily exploitable by the typical ork army. Getting your units into H-t-H with a well castled Tau army is going to be a blood bath. Also, you have to shoot path finders out of their holes, and ork armies typically don't have that sort of ability.

An army heavy on lootaz can probably blast pathfinders off the table first turn, but if the tau army has sniper teams/sky rays, or the dreaded jump/shoot/jumping marker drones, you're going to be in for some trouble. Orks desperately need their cover saves to get across the table, and tau will just ignore it as they blow you to bits with their easy access to massed 30 inch anti-infantry and templates.


I might suggest taking good ol snikkrot again. Most people have forgotten about him. Take two burnaz, and ambush him. Flamers are still delightfully good at killing Tau. It forces the tau player to a). set up closer to you, which is good or b). set up choice units along the back line just asking to be burned. Naturally, be careful of suits/riptides with intercept. This is a shaky tactic at best, and expensive, but its worth a playtest or two.

Battlewagons are still a viable option... sort of. AV 14 is still hard to deal with, and most tau armies have less STR 10 since broadsides went down in STR. However, a lot of tau armies will still be taking fusion blaster suits/piranha, so will HIGHLY dangerous against your side/rear armor. You'll have to bubble wrap your wagons with buggies or bikes, or boyz if you're willing to slow down your wagons a bit.

Also, you simply can't charge across the table. You have to hit a point where the tau are weak, otherwise be prepared to eat 3 or 4 squads worth of overwatch. They don't have to kill your whole unit, they just have to kill 1-2 inches off your charge range, and you're done. That's the real power of tau overwatch. It gives them that one extra turn to completely annihilate you at close range.


I've seen a lot of bold statements that say tau mean orks are done till they get a new book. I don't think its quite that dire, but its currently a very bad match up for our old green friends.

As a green player, you will need to adapt to face the meta. Your going to need to bring more battlewagons.

Look for the targets that are dangerous to your wagons and shoot them! Even a few lootas can take care of a lot of issues that might endanger your battlewagons.

What you put in your battlewagons is up to you. I would suggest against charging with slugga boys. Instead shoot their fire warriors with shoota boys. Fire warriors fold fast to massed STR 4 shooting.

I've only played them once so far. I added a unit of BS DeffKoptas and a unit of Lobbas to take out particuliar threats. NobBikerz 5++ and FNP can't be taken away by most Tau Units. I'm planning on reserving my Shoota Boyz to limit the number of turns they're on the table as a target. Maybe just maybe my Lootas, DeffKoptas, Lobbas, and NobBikerz can take out enough of the opp's gimmicks before the Shootas can safely take and hold the home objective(s).

Also with all that 48" range stuff, I'm planning on deploying on the sides and rear of my deployment zone so their (Tau and anybody else) will have to move closer to fire their weapons at full effect. It will also leave a nice hole that the Shootas can fill when they do come on Turn 2 or 3. Basically anything that passes the midline will be taking a 30 Boyz worth of fire.

Well I guess it also greatly depends on what types of Tau army you face, what's the "Tau meta" in your area.

Our (I say "our" for I'm a Tau player, and have little to none knowledge of Orks) Codex is just like most of the new codexes of the 6th ed.: tons of options, tons of gaming styles that might be "created" with the codex. No easy-busy units just as Broadies used to be, no "must-haves". So basically, here's a few "common" Tau army type you might encounter, and what I suppose to be their weaknesses.

- Infantery Heavy Tau Army: Tons of FireWarriors, Pathfinders, at least one Ethereal. Some Fusion Blasters here and around to managed the heavies that S5 Rifles cannot handle.
>> Good way to get rid of it: Either AV13+ spam and focus the FB, or a fast movin' & fast steamrollin' army (Nobz on bikz, etc..., find the way spot into the main pack (they'll be packed for the Ethereal bonus), multi-charge and get as many units as you can into CC.

- Mech Tau: Few FW units, mostly in DF (maybe FoF protection type), PIrahnas getting on your main vehicles, Crisis and Riptides flying all around, and HH to top it off.
>> Good way to get rid off it: Lootas I guess... any type of torrent dakka-dakka. Not many targets. The big story is hitting them and taking 'em down.

- Mixed Tau style: a bit of the first and second options. Get some of the first and second solutions

TBH, most of my Tau lists would be in a pretty great danger against Lootas + tons of bikers. My Riptides don't fear much shots, but get a small units of nobz with clawz and it'll be down in no time, even with Stim Injectors and 3++
Normal bikes will prolly eat my FW, even if their cover is removed and lootas provide some massive dakka on the main targets: Pathfinders.

snikrot and that stormboyz character are pretty much auto take... you need the mobility without the easy to stop vehicles (also free 1st blood)

right now i have 3 full squads of commandos, one with snikrot, so that 45orks + snikrot with infiltrate starting 18-12"from the enemy (or snikrot and both warbosses outflank to the opponents board edge, also good for getting the boys into the choppy goodness)

they are supported by about 30 stormboys, the larger group with the stormboyz character so they can hopefully charge when they come in,

both warbosses are on bikes so they can have a bit of mobility and harrass different units after they outflank with snikrot.

I also have a group of bikers to add to the "in your face threats"

~ 90 S+C boys and shoota boys run up the table and hope to get good run rolls, and assault turn three, hopefully the enemy is so busy with the infiltrators + storm boys that he is just overwhelmed.

realistically, this wont beat a savvy player with a good TAC list, but thats because orks are bottom of the heap right now, simply because our rules are outdated and very weak in this edition

orks are hurting really bad right now and need some codex love, mainly because a close combat orientated army cant get into combat, and honestly doesnt have the best CC units to begin with, shooty orks do better.. yet again...

 Al2ies wrote:
Since the release of the new Tau update, it has become damn near impossible to beat a Tau army with someone who has a mediocre knowledge of how to play them. Between support fire, all the AP 2 stuff running around, the broadsides anti air, the far superior range in shooting (as well as a better BS) and crisis suits always getting a cover save due to their stealth/shrouded induced armor, AND twin linked weapons only count as a single weapon now (Smart missle systems and high yield missle pods are twin linked)... it hass become somewhat demoralizing playing against them. Even when running with maxed out mega nobz it is a struggle to even get within charge range with half of the unit you once had. Anybody have any decent tactics the use when playing the new Tau?

I was going to respond but then I saw your flag.

They have hobby stores in the Vatican?

Considering what has happened to a lot of new codicies, I'm afar aid of what a new Ork codex might bring. If they could just take the best of the current codex, the previous codex, Armageddeon codex, and some IA and Apoc, I'd be happy with that. Nothing new, just old stuff at lower point costs and be able to join weird Boyz and PainBoyz to any unit as 1-3 Elite slot IC's.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Considering what has happened to a lot of new codicies, I'm afar aid of what a new Ork codex might bring. If they could just take the best of the current codex, the previous codex, Armageddeon codex, and some IA and Apoc, I'd be happy with that. Nothing new, just old stuff at lower point costs and be able to join weird Boyz and PainBoyz to any unit as 1-3 Elite slot IC's.

Are you afraid of the 6e Ork Codex being like the 5e Grey Knights codex was during it's heydey?

I'm actually quite excited. The only codex that has been mediocre thus far has been Chaos, although the Helldrake does a good job keeping them afloat. Out of the Dark Angels, Tau, and Daemons, I can't point to any unit and say 'wow, that's pyrovore/mandrake bad.'

The daemon book shows you can still run a CC army in 6th, but it needs to be fast. Ridiculously fast to cross those last 12-15 inches. Thats the deadzone where you're getting rapid fired and then overwatched.

Thats my only concern with orks. Orks have traditionally reached close combat by having the numbers to survive the fire. In 6th though, its not about that. Its about having models being able to cover the charge range after you continually lose your front rank or two (and therefore 2-3 inches of charge) to rapid fire/over watch. You can lower a boyz's point cost to 3 points for a slugga/choppa, but it still won't be that great, simply because he still won't get into CC. If you give me more models, thats just more crap that covers the table, gets hit with templates and blast markers, and doesn't cure the fact that my boyz still move just as slow and still get the front models removed.

I think one of the best ways to 'fix' orks is to allow ork mobz to remove casualties from the rear to represent the mad charge and press of bodies. This would go a long way to making orks work again.

After going against tau with my orks I am a little miffed. Playing in touney's so I need a TaC list for my orks and I am used to maybe having to make a small adjustment or two to my army when another armies codex comes out with some new toys but with this new tau book I feel like I have to change my entire army to face them. Having to change around most your army is something I might expect for your own army getting a new codex not someone elses army getting a new codex. I really don't see going against them with a TaC list without allies. I could see full on huge green tide maybe working but risky still and really I hate playing that way.

You want the best way to beat tau? -> battlewagons.
you want a tac-list with the possibility to take on tau? -> battlewagons and loota's.

Then you still got to play it smart because the 'iam running towards the enemy with all my orks' concept doesn't work (anymore).

list:
warboss with mega armor (and stuff)
mek with kff and powerclaw

3 battle wagons (extra armor, deffrolla and sum big shoota's to bring down flying MC)

2x10 loota's
1x 15 loota's

20 shoota boyz
20 shoota boyz
17 shoota boyz with powerclaw nob

thats about 1550 points..

2 options:

1: put the loota's in the battle wagons and shoot! warboss goes with the 15 loota's to take explosion hits and let the unit move and shoot (slow but ..) if you fear deepstrike fusion/melta use boyz to shield the battle wagon.
2: If you need to attack put those shoota boyz in the battle wagons and go away. 17 boyz, big mek and warboss go in the middle wagon and got 3 powerclaws to take down big targets(riptides).

I think this will work (at best)....

 Kain wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Considering what has happened to a lot of new codicies, I'm afar aid of what a new Ork codex might bring. If they could just take the best of the current codex, the previous codex, Armageddeon codex, and some IA and Apoc, I'd be happy with that. Nothing new, just old stuff at lower point costs and be able to join weird Boyz and PainBoyz to any unit as 1-3 Elite slot IC's.

Are you afraid of the 6e Ork Codex being like the 5e Grey Knights codex was during it's heydey?

Grey Knights? You mean the only Codex if ever thought was truly broken? Hell, I'd be ashamed to play Orks then!

Nah, Orks have always been the comic foil to the Space Marine vs. Chaos dichotomy. Space Orks vs. Fantasy Orcs emphasized the shooting aspect of the race. I used to think Orks were CC then Tyranids came along.

Orks were created to defeat Necrons based on 2 factors: numbers and being too stupid to fight intelligently.

Orks are so stupid they will ally with Necrons (in 6th at least).

Orks are loud, shooty, and stompy. They should be the most cybernetic race in 40K unless you're playing Snake Bite Boyz.

I agree with your thought of Orks dying to prove themselves. Maybe all Orks should be able to reroll all Look Out Sir rolls. Maybe a nob should be mandatory and if he dies, the mob is pinned for a turn but one gets promoted.

Orks are a joke army I'm happy to play. When you win with a joke army, the victory is all that sweeter. It's like getting the most kills in a Halo match only Meleeing people. "I'm so damn good I don't need bullets, I just like the sound they make" should be every Ork's mantra.

Finally Orks are the true chaos, lawless army. Chaos Marines aren't truly choatic, they're just dicks.

Let us loot vehicles again, open topped LR Crusaders with 15 Burna Boyz? Hell yeah, and you'll sell more models GW.

I like your list Shogun, but I'd give the mek a burna instead of the klaw. just in case you need to burn some tau out of the terrain they're hiding in.

 PipeAlley wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Considering what has happened to a lot of new codicies, I'm afar aid of what a new Ork codex might bring. If they could just take the best of the current codex, the previous codex, Armageddeon codex, and some IA and Apoc, I'd be happy with that. Nothing new, just old stuff at lower point costs and be able to join weird Boyz and PainBoyz to any unit as 1-3 Elite slot IC's.

Are you afraid of the 6e Ork Codex being like the 5e Grey Knights codex was during it's heydey?

Grey Knights? You mean the only Codex if ever thought was truly broken? Hell, I'd be ashamed to play Orks then!

Nah, Orks have always been the comic foil to the Space Marine vs. Chaos dichotomy. Space Orks vs. Fantasy Orcs emphasized the shooting aspect of the race. I used to think Orks were CC then Tyranids came along.

Orks were created to defeat Necrons based on 2 factors: numbers and being too stupid to fight intelligently.

Orks are so stupid they will ally with Necrons (in 6th at least).

Orks are loud, shooty, and stompy. They should be the most cybernetic race in 40K unless you're playing Snake Bite Boyz.

I agree with your thought of Orks dying to prove themselves. Maybe all Orks should be able to reroll all Look Out Sir rolls. Maybe a nob should be mandatory and if he dies, the mob is pinned for a turn but one gets promoted.

Orks are a joke army I'm happy to play. When you win with a joke army, the victory is all that sweeter. It's like getting the most kills in a Halo match only Meleeing people. "I'm so damn good I don't need bullets, I just like the sound they make" should be every Ork's mantra.

Finally Orks are the true chaos, lawless army. Chaos Marines aren't truly choatic, they're just dicks.

Let us loot vehicles again, open topped LR Crusaders with 15 Burna Boyz? Hell yeah, and you'll sell more models GW.

All of this. Orks are supposed to be the comic relief army in a world of grim-dark, just like Dwarves usually are to fantasy settings. Like, all these other armys have powerful motivators and motives, while the Orks are here just for a good fight.
If Orks ever lose that joking charm, I would gladly never touch an ork codex again...

I would say things that are more in-line with the thread, but I think everything that could be said has been said already

Does Tau have a lot of anti horde now or something? I thought they always struggled against horde infantry?

I have a tactic I'm using currently that makes my Tau buddy hate me with a passion

CSM + Dirge caster on a Land Raider = Forfeit...
5 Point upgrade completely shuts down entire Tau tactic of overwatch and run away lol

True story

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Does Tau have a lot of anti horde now or something? I thought they always struggled against horde infantry?

at rapid fire range, they can get up to 4 shots for each fire warrior, then with a few marker lights be hitting on 2, wounding on 3, no cover or armor saves for the boys. so just 1 unit of 12 could take out an entire boy mob.

then when you charge them any units within I think 6" can also overwatch at the charging unit.

Orks are tough to win with now no matter what codex you go up against unless you strike really lucky and run Nob Bikers against a list that it just happens can't deal with them effectively.

Its not just Tau.

Ookami wrote:
I guess you can no longer beat Tau just like you used to do it. You have to figure out the new weaknesses of the Tau army (and there are some you might use) to crush them. Phatonic gave you some ideas...

Learn, and adapt, Tau won't go down easily.

You have to be joking! Tau have always been always been and Ork armies achilles heel. Fire Warriors have the pulse rifle ( range 30" str 5 ) the best gun you can get on a infantry the ability to get penetrating hits on most of the Ork vehicles! Don't give me that there only BS 3 crap every Ork and his Squig wished Tau Fire Warriors were BS 4 but only had bolters, Kroot were and still are the hard counter to Orks just noone takes them because Fire Warriors are just to good. now in 6ed there 1pt cheaper and get all the new rapid fire rules

Rapid Fire : Fire Warriors have the pulse rifle ( range 30" str 5 ) so that 2 shots 15" with a str 5 your totaly safe from assault, the Orks only have to roll 11 on 2d6 in the mean time you have 33.3*% chance of killing an Ork with each shot and with and Ethereal near by you get 3 shots, that is 1 dead Ork each turn and the poor Orks have only a 8.3*% chance of assaulting the Fire Warrior
put them in a trukk you say hull points make any vehicles useles but i will keep going not only can a Fire Warrior get penetrating hits but if there is an Ethereal 1 and i really do mean 1 Fire Warrior can in a single turn glance a trukk to death.

If there basic infantry is that good Ork need a Battle Wagon just to get pass them your going to have a bad day.
Fire Warriors are 9pts x 12 = 108pts there troops so spam them 72 Fire Warriors 648pts so in a 1500pts list you have 850pts to spend on Crisis Suits and Brodesides and marker lights (the things that make tau BS 10 and negate cover)

It is a testament to your skill and tenacity as an Ork General that you could win vs Tau (3rd, 4th or 5th ed)

sirlynchmob wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Does Tau have a lot of anti horde now or something? I thought they always struggled against horde infantry?

at rapid fire range, they can get up to 4 shots for each fire warrior, then with a few marker lights be hitting on 2, wounding on 3, no cover or armor saves for the boys. so just 1 unit of 12 could take out an entire boy mob.

then when you charge them any units within I think 6" can also overwatch at the charging unit.

How on earth are they getting 4 shots a piece?

That's insane.

shogun wrote:

You want the best way to beat tau? -> battlewagons.
you want a tac-list with the possibility to take on tau? -> battlewagons and loota's.

Then you still got to play it smart because the 'iam running towards the enemy with all my orks' concept doesn't work (anymore).

list:
warboss with mega armor (and stuff)
mek with kff and powerclaw

3 battle wagons (extra armor, deffrolla and sum big shoota's to bring down flying MC)

2x10 loota's
1x 15 loota's

20 shoota boyz
20 shoota boyz
17 shoota boyz with powerclaw nob

thats about 1550 points..

2 options:

1: put the loota's in the battle wagons and shoot! warboss goes with the 15 loota's to take explosion hits and let the unit move and shoot (slow but ..) if you fear deepstrike fusion/melta use boyz to shield the battle wagon.
2: If you need to attack put those shoota boyz in the battle wagons and go away. 17 boyz, big mek and warboss go in the middle wagon and got 3 powerclaws to take down big targets(riptides).

I think this will work (at best)....

That is pretty close to what I brought against tau the first game it was 1850 so I had dakkajets and meganobs in a trukk which I held is reserve and an aegis only had 2 BW's though. Result of the game turn 2 it was over no orks left on the table dakka jets and meganobs never made it on the table (bad rolling but I doubt they would of made a difference).. One squad of lootas died first turn to missile sides after getting a couple marker lights on em another squad died to shots that did not require LoS and ignored cover. He was allied with GK and had an assasin pop out of my other lootas and flamed them then charged them and they died to sweeping advance. Some suits deep stuck behind the BW's and blew one up and flamed the boys left over after the explosion outflanking kroot sniped the other BW's rear armor and blew it up with most the boys all he had to do was use his missile sides again on what was left and I had nothing left on the table so the game ended. If it had gone to turn 3 I don't see the dakka jets lasting or a single squad of mega nobs. So now after facing that I have to rethink my dakka jets and might ditch them I have to rethink my aegis I have to think about adding in some allies and buy more models maybe add more meganobs or something with decent armor or some of my own cover ignoring pie plates. My issue is that when other armies have had a new book come out I may have had to add one thing or just make a change like breaking my lootas into 3 squad instead of 2 but with this one I feel like it forces me to change my entire army and playstyle to deal with it in a TaC list.

Thats what I was saying about close ranged firepower intensifying to the point of making assault pointless.

Four shots isn't really that common. It requires an ethereal and a fireblade. The fireblade gives a single squad an extra shot, and the ethereal gives every unit within 12 an extra shot at half range. So at most, you'll see about 24 firewarriors gunning four shots at close range. Most likely buffed with markerlights to ignore your cover or be BS 5. Its not pretty.

But even then, Dark Angels are even more dangerous with their hurricane bolters and the bolter banner. Each tactical marine/bike/LRC kicking out 4 shots for each bolter at 24 inch range will absolutely erase anything in 24 inch range. If you're playing orks right now, against a 'modern' army, you really need AV14 between you and your opponent.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

How on earth are they getting 4 shots a piece?

That's insane.

Ethereal+Fireblade. Works only within 15" and only if the FW unit remained stationary, but otherwise, it is really 4 shots/FW. Both for normal shooting and Overwatch.

Also, Tau now has all sorts of pie plates (Riptides, Ionheads) and can take 2x flamer crisis suits. so yeah, they can kill hordes now rather easily.

That's part of why battlewagons are pretty much an autotake unit. Luckily for your orks the Tau aren't quite as good at popping them from across the table as they used to be, but bearIn mind that even with the nerd to broadsides the Tau probably still have the best LRAT in the entire game, especially with the buff to AP 1 and 2 weapons. Also keep in mind that if you''re using official models battlewagons have really long sides and the Tau can crack av12 with incredible ease.

Red paint will be a useful upgrade as every extra inch you can get closer to the Tau means that you can krump dose blue gitz that much faster. Deffrollas as always are essentially autotakes, don't let their av values fool you, Tau vehicles are very tough nuts to crack with all the good saves they can get, so don't count on shooting. Honestly, a hammerhead with a disruption pod is harder to bust with gunfire than a Leman Russ.

If they have an ethereal, kill him as soon as possible, the bonuses he can pass out are incredibly good and have a good area of effect. Not only that but killing the ethereal can also do hilarious things to a Tau army. Be warned, Tau players know this and will have almost certainly taken steps to protect the ethereal. If taking out the ethereal would likely bleed your army dry then don't do it.

Never get into a shoot out with the Tau if you can help it, because they are much better at it than you are. Shooting should be something to do when you can't assault as there are precious few armies that can handle the Tau in a gunfight and yours is not one of them.

Riptides are something you can only really deal with by making them roll a lot of saves. They are hard as nails, extremely fast, reasonably priced, and have amazing guns, they can easily make or break a game. Catching them will be a pain and you don't have the kind of shooting to punch past that damn 2+ save of theirs (and you can bet your teef it''ll have FNP too). Whether or not you can afford to ignore them depends on what kind of army you have and what gun they''re using. The IA for example, will do horrible things to nob squads and MANz, but nob bikerz can survive it well enough.

Also, always count on the Tau having air supremacy. TheIr anti air is just that good. Sure their fliers aren't amazing (to be fair, helldrakes, vendettas, and night scythes are what they have to be compared to) but they are still quite good and the one with the quad turret makes mech lists cry. Don't count on your dakkajets.

I'd recommend a list with nob bikers and battlewagons (burnas are still good, especially to toast kroot and worker blobs who could otherwise tarpit your boyz) being your lynchpin. Plenty fast and will unleash a hurting in assault.

My friend who plays Tau typically takes 2 five man squads of marker light pathfinders ,2 or 3 FW squads of 7 or 8, a hammerhead with longstrike, a rip tide, 3 broadsides (with missle drones) for anti - air, and a death ball of crisis suites: Shadow sun and 2 shield drones, Farsight (dawnblade and the ability to deepstrike with no scatter PLUS whole army gets preffered enemy) w/ 3 bodyguards, a bunch of other drones, and one has some sort of gauntlet that allows it a S10 AP1 attack, All the suites (including shadow sun) have twin linked plasma rifles and twin linked fusion blasters. One of the suits doesnt shoot but is giving them an ability to re-roll misses or something crazy like that. I've only played him once with these new rules so Im not 100% familiar with all the craziness going on. Being able to deepstrike on my backdoor without scattering is so over powered. Especially when he has so many heavy hitting weapons, BS 5, and twin linked everything. Armor saves and initiative are way better. Honestly, Im almost thinking of hanging up my warhammer hat until a new Ork codex comes out because we are simply being out-gunned AND out melee'd if we even get a chance to make it to close combat. This list easily pops armor, guns down infantry (including M.Nobz) pretty fast, AND takes away alot of advantages getting into close combat with the fire support, rapid fire, and alot of the basic infantry has defense grenades which take away the attack bonus on the charge. Not lookin good for the home team.