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Made in lt
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Lithuania

Question stands, because in RB and Tau codex rules talk about firing weapons in the shooting phase.

It would be all clear but ambiguity arises in RB pg. 21 under paragraph Resolve Overwatch, where it states that "An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack".

So how do you rule it? Are there any general consensus?

I tried to search forums for this on, but if I missed similar thread, please link it.

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I can see the argument allowing it, however you're going to get a mixed bag of responses. There will be a bunch of people who vehemently deny, and some who allow.

Personally, I think you can fire 2 weapons in overwatch, but...

It needs an FAQ, bottom line.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/01 12:51:01


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yes you can, or noone can fire overwatch ever (as all shooting is defined as "in the shooting phase")
   
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Louisiana

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes you can, or noone can fire overwatch ever (as all shooting is defined as "in the shooting phase")


I second this interpretation -- weapons are defined as shooting in the shooting phase only. If multi-trackers don't work in overwatch, neither would bolters, lasguns, or any other shooting weapons.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
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Lithuania

Its a question of can two weapons be fired in overwatch, since in MC and Multitracker ruling it is stated, that they are shot in the shooting phase.

I don't see how bolters and lasguns are an argument. It's stated, that you can fire "Like in the shooting phase" but that doesn't equal "shooting phase" IMO. Or does it?

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Baltimore

People really need to look at the actual rules for this one, and not how they think they're written, or how they think it should be done. Both the MC rule and the Multi-tracker say they allow a model to fire extra weapon 'in the Shooting phase."

Overwatch rules on page 31 give you explicit permission to make a shooting attack 'in the Assault phase.'

It seems pretty straight forward that special rules or wargear that specifically say they work 'in the Shooting phase,' do not work 'in the Assault phase,' but it's also further muddief by the fact that the signature gear systems that affect shooting also specifically say they don't work in overwatch.

A FAQ would be useful, because while the rules are pretty clear how it's supposed to work, as this and other threads show, people don't want it to work that way, and RAW is pretty counter-intuitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 tetrisphreak wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes you can, or noone can fire overwatch ever (as all shooting is defined as "in the shooting phase")


I second this interpretation -- weapons are defined as shooting in the shooting phase only. If multi-trackers don't work in overwatch, neither would bolters, lasguns, or any other shooting weapons.

All of the above being flat out wrong, and why I'm telling people they need to actually read the rulebook on this one. Page 31 BRB explicitly gives you permission to make a shooting attack in the Assault phase, so you can make your shooting attack, but do you get to use wargear and special rules that specifically say they only work 'in the Shooting phase?'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/01 13:45:02


 
   
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 Portugal Jones wrote:
People really need to look at the actual rules for this one, and not how they think they're written, or how they think it should be done. Both the MC rule and the Multi-tracker say they allow a model to fire extra weapon 'in the Shooting phase."

Overwatch rules on page 31 give you explicit permission to make a shooting attack 'in the Assault phase.'

It seems pretty straight forward that special rules or wargear that specifically say they work 'in the Shooting phase,' do not work 'in the Assault phase,' but it's also further muddief by the fact that the signature gear systems that affect shooting also specifically say they don't work in overwatch.

A FAQ would be useful, because while the rules are pretty clear how it's supposed to work, as this and other threads show, people don't want it to work that way, and RAW is pretty counter-intuitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 tetrisphreak wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes you can, or noone can fire overwatch ever (as all shooting is defined as "in the shooting phase")


I second this interpretation -- weapons are defined as shooting in the shooting phase only. If multi-trackers don't work in overwatch, neither would bolters, lasguns, or any other shooting weapons.

All of the above being flat out wrong, and why I'm telling people they need to actually read the rulebook on this one. Page 31 BRB explicitly gives you permission to make a shooting attack in the Assault phase, so you can make your shooting attack, but do you get to use wargear and special rules that specifically say they only work 'in the Shooting phase?'


Thats actually a decent point, if you can use wargear like multitrackers then necrons should be able to use the Nightmare shroud in overwatch.
   
Made in au
Trustworthy Shas'vre






The real rules:

Rulebook wrote:
Pg51: More than one weapon
Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting Phase.


If you're going to get technical about multitrackers, then the rules technically only restrict you firing multiple weapons in the shooting phase; ergo if you have 3 weapons and no multitracker, you can still fire them all on overwatch/interceptor.
   
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Trasvi wrote:
The real rules:

Rulebook wrote:
Pg51: More than one weapon
Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting Phase.


If you're going to get technical about multitrackers, then the rules technically only restrict you firing multiple weapons in the shooting phase; ergo if you have 3 weapons and no multitracker, you can still fire them all on overwatch/interceptor.


A) you are citing a denial, in a discussion that is already talking about exemption to that denial.
B) Over watch is resolved as a normal shooting attack, we must use all the rules for the shooting phase to make said normal shooting attack or we cannot use any of them(specific exemptions/alterations detailed in the overwatch rules altering the rules where appropriate).
C) Multitracker only allows 1 additional weapon to be fired in the shooting phase.

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Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
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Baltimore

Urgh, and now I see how things can get messy. What a pain. Even though I think the RAW prohibits it, I'd guess their intention was to allow it, since overwatch is more or less blazing away at incoming enemies to being with.

Hurry up and FAQ it already!

 
   
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 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Trasvi wrote:
The real rules:

Rulebook wrote:
Pg51: More than one weapon
Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting Phase.


If you're going to get technical about multitrackers, then the rules technically only restrict you firing multiple weapons in the shooting phase; ergo if you have 3 weapons and no multitracker, you can still fire them all on overwatch/interceptor.


A) you are citing a denial, in a discussion that is already talking about exemption to that denial.
B) Over watch is resolved as a normal shooting attack, we must use all the rules for the shooting phase to make said normal shooting attack or we cannot use any of them(specific exemptions/alterations detailed in the overwatch rules altering the rules where appropriate).
C) Multitracker only allows 1 additional weapon to be fired in the shooting phase.



A) I'm citing the rule which actually prohibits you from firing more than one weapon. No-one else has cared to cite the rule thus far. The rule only prohibits you from firing more than one weapon in the shooting phase.

B) If you are considering that all shooting must use the rules as if it is a shooting phase, then multi-trackers work.
If you are claiming that this is not a shooting phase, then I am not restricted in the number of weapons I can fire. Per pg51 I am only restricted if it is a shooting phase, and so multitrackers are irrelevant.

C) The interpretation that allows you to fire unlimited weapons (per pg 51: not a shooting phase therefore no restrictions) doesn't care whether you are a monstrous creature, have a multi-tracker, both, or neither.


It is inconsistent to claim that overwatch is not a shooting phase (and thus multitrackers don't work) yet it is a shooting phase (and so you are restricted to one weapon).
Personally I'm of the opinion that all shooting must follow the rules for the shooting phase (thus multitrackers work and you can only fire 2 weapons on overwatch/interceptor); but thankfully, my opinion doesn't really matter here and the only difference is whether I get to fire 2 or 3 flamers on overwatch .

   
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A) where in the assault phase rules are the rules for making a normal shooting attack? All of the rules for shooting is found in the rules for the shooting phase.

B) I am claiming multitrackers work. They work under their rules of allowing 1 more weapon than normal to be fired.

C) I think you are misunderstanding what I was taking exception to/ correcting.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in lt
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Lithuania

Trasvi wrote:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Trasvi wrote:
The real rules:

Rulebook wrote:
Pg51: More than one weapon
Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting Phase.


If you're going to get technical about multitrackers, then the rules technically only restrict you firing multiple weapons in the shooting phase; ergo if you have 3 weapons and no multitracker, you can still fire them all on overwatch/interceptor.


A) you are citing a denial, in a discussion that is already talking about exemption to that denial.
B) Over watch is resolved as a normal shooting attack, we must use all the rules for the shooting phase to make said normal shooting attack or we cannot use any of them(specific exemptions/alterations detailed in the overwatch rules altering the rules where appropriate).
C) Multitracker only allows 1 additional weapon to be fired in the shooting phase.



A) I'm citing the rule which actually prohibits you from firing more than one weapon. No-one else has cared to cite the rule thus far. The rule only prohibits you from firing more than one weapon in the shooting phase.

B) If you are considering that all shooting must use the rules as if it is a shooting phase, then multi-trackers work.
If you are claiming that this is not a shooting phase, then I am not restricted in the number of weapons I can fire. Per pg51 I am only restricted if it is a shooting phase, and so multitrackers are irrelevant.

C) The interpretation that allows you to fire unlimited weapons (per pg 51: not a shooting phase therefore no restrictions) doesn't care whether you are a monstrous creature, have a multi-tracker, both, or neither.


It is inconsistent to claim that overwatch is not a shooting phase (and thus multitrackers don't work) yet it is a shooting phase (and so you are restricted to one weapon).
Personally I'm of the opinion that all shooting must follow the rules for the shooting phase (thus multitrackers work and you can only fire 2 weapons on overwatch/interceptor); but thankfully, my opinion doesn't really matter here and the only difference is whether I get to fire 2 or 3 flamers on overwatch .



I think the point you are trying to make is nullified by pg. 21 "Resolve overwatch" paragraph in which it is stated that:
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on. Unlike a normal shooting attack, Overwatch cannot cause Morale checks or Pinning tests. Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as snap Shots". Thus regular shooting rules apply.

My question stands whether the wording on MC and Multritrackers (they both are similar) counts as "shooting phase" or "like shooting phase" (but actually in assault phase and totally not shooting phase, just "like shooting phase").

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/01 16:23:07


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I'd say the key thing here is the wording of Overwatch "like a normal shooting attack", I would argue that a normal shooting attack for a Monstrous Creature is with 2 weapons as rules say "Monstrous Creatures can fire up to fwo of their weapons each Shooting phase", but the Tau Multi-trackers specifically state that they add 1 shot during the shooting phase, so a normal shooting attack from a Crisis suit or whatever would be 1 shot, and then a multi-tracker adds another during the shooting phase only. I appreciate I'm biased here, though, and I think GW could FAQ it either way (and should've dealt with this in the latest FAQ).

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They FAQ'd that Witchfire can't be used for Overwatch, and yet as far as I remember the only argument that Witchfire couldn't be used for Overwatch was precisely the fact that it specifies "in the Shooting phase". Of course, as pointed out herein, the multi-weapon restriction is also "in the Shooting phase", I can't even venture to guess how this will be FAQ'd.

I mean, I think you should be able to use Multi-trackers and be otherwise restricted by the normal limits, but I thought you'd be able to use Witchfire, too, and they ruled against it.
   
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Louisiana

Just to add in, the gunslinger rule under the pistols rule entry also is worded "may fire both in the shooting phase."

The interesting thing to me is that before the new tau codex added an overwatch mechanic that is actually useful (supporting fire) that nowhere mentioned this little rules 'hiccup'. To me it reeks of RAW loopholers trying to finagle a nerf onto a newer codex. Am I alone in that assumption?

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
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Trustworthy Shas'vre






 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'd say the key thing here is the wording of Overwatch "like a normal shooting attack", I would argue that a normal shooting attack for a Monstrous Creature is with 2 weapons as rules say "Monstrous Creatures can fire up to fwo of their weapons each Shooting phase", but the Tau Multi-trackers specifically state that they add 1 shot during the shooting phase, so a normal shooting attack from a Crisis suit or whatever would be 1 shot, and then a multi-tracker adds another during the shooting phase only. I appreciate I'm biased here, though, and I think GW could FAQ it either way (and should've dealt with this in the latest FAQ).


What is a 'normal' shooting attack though? It is never defined anywhere in the rules. About the only sensible idea of a 'normal' shooting attack would be 'firing ranged weapons', and not anything else you can do instead of shooting (ie, running).

Your MC vs MT logic makes no sense. If MC get to fire 2 weapons, it must be a shooting phase. If it is not a shooting phase, then neither battlesuits nor MC get to fire twice (unless you take the RAW interpretation of page 51). There is no 'fire 1 shot, then wargear kicks in and adds another' nor any distinction between what is a 'normal' attack with a shooting weapon vs shooting allowed or enhanced by wargear (otherwise you could argue that abilities like Prescience or Master Crafted are 'not normal').


I think the point you are trying to make is nullified by pg. 21 "Resolve overwatch" paragraph in which it is stated that:
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on. Unlike a normal shooting attack, Overwatch cannot cause Morale checks or Pinning tests. Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as snap Shots". Thus regular shooting rules apply.

And again: if regular shooting rules apply, you can either
a) claim it follows the rules of the shooting phase, in which case as per pg51 you are restricted to one weapon, but multitracker acts as though it is a shooting phase and gives you an extra shot.
or b) claim it is not a shooting phase and therefore multitracker doesn't work, in which case as per pg51 you are not restricted in the number of weapons which can fire.

To say multitrackers don't work is to selectively apply/deny rules which specify 'in the shooting phase'. It's not a shooting phase, but it's enough like one that you're restricted to shooting, but not quite enough like one that multitrackers work? Ridiculous, illogical, inconsistent and not supported by RAW, RAI, fluff, or how anyone plays it.
   
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Trasvi wrote:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'd say the key thing here is the wording of Overwatch "like a normal shooting attack", I would argue that a normal shooting attack for a Monstrous Creature is with 2 weapons as rules say "Monstrous Creatures can fire up to fwo of their weapons each Shooting phase", but the Tau Multi-trackers specifically state that they add 1 shot during the shooting phase, so a normal shooting attack from a Crisis suit or whatever would be 1 shot, and then a multi-tracker adds another during the shooting phase only. I appreciate I'm biased here, though, and I think GW could FAQ it either way (and should've dealt with this in the latest FAQ).


What is a 'normal' shooting attack though? It is never defined anywhere in the rules. About the only sensible idea of a 'normal' shooting attack would be 'firing ranged weapons', and not anything else you can do instead of shooting (ie, running).

Your MC vs MT logic makes no sense. If MC get to fire 2 weapons, it must be a shooting phase. If it is not a shooting phase, then neither battlesuits nor MC get to fire twice (unless you take the RAW interpretation of page 51). There is no 'fire 1 shot, then wargear kicks in and adds another' nor any distinction between what is a 'normal' attack with a shooting weapon vs shooting allowed or enhanced by wargear (otherwise you could argue that abilities like Prescience or Master Crafted are 'not normal').


I think the point you are trying to make is nullified by pg. 21 "Resolve overwatch" paragraph in which it is stated that:
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on. Unlike a normal shooting attack, Overwatch cannot cause Morale checks or Pinning tests. Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as snap Shots". Thus regular shooting rules apply.

And again: if regular shooting rules apply, you can either
a) claim it follows the rules of the shooting phase, in which case as per pg51 you are restricted to one weapon, but multitracker acts as though it is a shooting phase and gives you an extra shot.
or b) claim it is not a shooting phase and therefore multitracker doesn't work, in which case as per pg51 you are not restricted in the number of weapons which can fire.

To say multitrackers don't work is to selectively apply/deny rules which specify 'in the shooting phase'. It's not a shooting phase, but it's enough like one that you're restricted to shooting, but not quite enough like one that multitrackers work? Ridiculous, illogical, inconsistent and not supported by RAW, RAI, fluff, or how anyone plays it.


Page 12, end of second paragraph.

"Once you've completed this shooting sequence
with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence.
Once you have completed steps 1 to 5 for each unit in your
army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the
Assault phase."

Also, same page -
Nominate Unit To Shoot
During the Shooting phase,a unit containing models armed with
ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/05/02 01:48:10


 
   
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Trustworthy Shas'vre






And? That doesn't say what constitutes a 'normal' shooting attack or how it differs from a 'special shooting attack' or a 'monstrous creature shooting attack' or a 'shooting attack but with multitrackers'.

If your argument hinges on shooting with multitrackers not being a 'normal' shooting attack, you need to provide evidence why it is not.

Regarding 'instead of shooting' wargear: overwatch only gives you permission to make a 'normal shooting attack'; it does not give you permission to do things that you could do 'instead of shooting'. Otherwise, screw wargear, just run away instead of shooting right? Multitrackers on the other hand are not 'instead of shooting', they simply affect how your shooting works.
   
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Louisiana

I still feel like the multi trackers are intended to work during overwatch - that is the tau's strongest factor in cc. Shoot the enemy so they fail their charge roll.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
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Also, if they had intended for the Multi-Trackers to not work during Overwatch, why didn't they put the line in like they did for MSSS and CnC Nodes?
   
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How many things say "in the shooting phase" that are worded exactly this way? MC, multi tracker, gun slinger, rapid fire. Any others that I missed.
This is definitely certain people who want to nerf a new codex but still we have to find all of the answers and questions to win the argument with a TO present when this kind of crap pops up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/02 06:06:58


 
   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes you can, or noone can fire overwatch ever (as all shooting is defined as "in the shooting phase")


Wow, now I know the end of the world is nigh...I completely agree with Nos! (btw, you're off my ignore list )

To say the Multi-tracker doesn't work during Overwatch is a prima facia absurdity. What is one doing during Overwatch? Shooting. A Multi-tracker allows the model to shoot two weapons, correct? Ergo, both weapons may fire during Overwatch, as it is an out of sequence Shooting Phase by definition, as it is a 'normal shooting attack', and normally, a model equipped with a Multi-tracker may fire two weapons, unless it is only equipped with one.

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OK so i did a little research (Searched a Rulebook PDF) and it looks like the things that are limited by the "in the shooting phase" list are:

Multi Tracker - Tau Codex
MC shooting BRB page 48
Vehicle type Walker shooting all weapons BRB page 84
Gun slinger BRB page 52
Grenades BRB page 61
Witchfire psychic attack page 68
Limitation of firing one weapon per model BRB page 51

OK so the outcome form all this, IMHO;
a. No multi tracker doesn't work in OW
b. Monstrous Creature rule doesnt work in OW
c. Vehicle type walker shooting rule doesn't work in OW
d. gunslinger doesn't work in OW
e. grenades cant be thrown in OW
f. Witchfire doesn't work in OW <- confirmed by GW FAQ
g. and last but not least, drum roll, limitation of one weapon shooting per model rule does not work in OW!

Points a., b., c. and d. are moot cause you can shoot all of your weapons according to RAW in BRB page 12.

So this makes battle suits and riptide better than it was before the question, Yay.

(edit) Eeeek that means every model with more than one ranged weapon could fire them ALL in Overwatch. Every model with a pistol and a rifle... that is alot of messed up right there. I kinda think it would be better to let the Multi tracker work...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
A friend just called GW and their response was that the MT, gunslinger and MC rules apply in the OW.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/02 16:21:15


 
   
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 Shas'O...Crap wrote:

I completely agree with Nos! (btw, you're off my ignore list )


Why was he ever ON your ignore list? Sure he's difficult sometimes, but that's usually because his arguments are so hard to counter, and has nothing to do with his sparkling personality

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Late to the party, but I'm here from googling this exact question.
While I think multi trackers should work in overwatch, the "shooting phase" concept is absurd here. If overwatch is going to be treated as a shooting phase, that means Tau alone can have the targeted unit Run backward, one supporting unit Run in front of them, and all other supporting units shoot the charging unit.
   
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MmMhmm. I wouldn't have been against witchfire overwatch before the FAQ but now I think of it more as problem with how powers are generated. A gun is something you have on you all the time - where as PP are manifested In spercific and seemly ''locked'' phases.

I Think Nos hit the nail on the head with trying to utilise ''The Shooting Phase'' for this purpose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/14 06:51:13


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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes you can, or noone can fire overwatch ever (as all shooting is defined as "in the shooting phase")

Consider the following:
1. The Shooting Phase is one of three main phases of a turn, in which a shooting attack can be made. Shooting attacks can be performed in all three main phases of a turn. Interceptor rule is a shooting attack that occurs during the Movement Phase, and Overwatch is a shooting attack during the Assault Phase. So, "all shooting" is not defined as "in the shooting phase". Special rules such as GK Coatez "I've Been Expecting You" also allowis a shooting attack during the Movement Phase and I'm sure there maybe more situations of shooting attacks in all phases now and in the future.
2. Both the MC and Multi-tracker rule specifies the "Shooting phase". The rule could have excluded these two words and therefore wouldn't restrict which phase 2 weapons could be fired. They could have also used the wording, "shooting attack" and not "shooting phase", which again would not restrict when the MC and multi-tracker could fire 2 weapons. "Shooting attack" can be done in any phase as described above.
3. By specifying a specific phase when MC and Multi-tracker can fire multiple weapons in a shooting attack does restrict their use only during that phase. Just my thoughts
   
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As has been pointed out several times, there is a restriction in 40k that tells you that you must choose a single weapon to fire.

That restriction (that's already been posted) says you can't shoot 2 weapons in the same shooting phase.

If your going to argue that overwatch and interceptor are not treated as a shooting phase, then there is no restriction on how many weapons you can fire.

If overwatch and interceptor ARE treated like a shooting phase, then MC and multitrackers allow you to fire an additional weapon.

No matter which conclusion, yes, MC and models with multitrackers can fire more than 1 weapon in overwatch and interceptor.

insaniak wrote:
YMDC has plenty of room for discussion veering away from the RAW, particularly in cases like this where what is being put forward as the RAW is absurd.

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