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I was looking at the 6th Edition Codex’s and I think I noticed a trend. There is a lack of dedicated Anti-Tank Units in them.
I know you can build some good Anti-Tank Units, Land Speeders with Multi-Meltas, Chaos Terminators with Combi-Meltas and Crisis Suits with Fusion Blaster. I am talking about Units that both historically and by their nature are Dedicated Anti-Tank.
I know some of them are good and some of them are bad, I don’t want to get into that.

Chaos Space Marines:
>Havocs
>Land Raiders
>Predators

Dark Angels:
>Devastators
>Land Raiders
>Predators

Tau:
>Hamerheads

Depends on what you mean by Dedicated Anti-tank. If you're talking about units specialized at killing AV13/14, then sure, there's not much out there. I don't really consider that a bad thing though.

I think that the bigger trend has been away from long range anti-tank and to shorter ranged anti-tank. Less lascannon spam, more meltas / thunderhammers / multi-meltas / meltabombs / haywire grenades. I also feel that's probably a good thing, as it makes heavy armor a threat to sit-n-shoot gunline armies like it ought to be. Almost forces your opponent to close in order to take out your heavier stuff, which tends to make for more interesting games.

Also, I don't feel that Tau really have any units specialized to taking out AV13/14. Railgun Hammerheads are the closest thing we've got, and while they're better than a single lascannon, they're far from reliable. Broadsides struggle against AV13/14, even with Heavy Rail Rifles. Your best bets are:

1) Crisis teams with Fusion Blasters
2) EMP grenades on FW/PF squads
3) Crisis with Onager Gauntlet
4) Piranha with Fusion Blaster
5) Riptide Smash attacks

Other than that, Tau are pretty much forced to maneuver for side/rear shots to avoid the heavier frontal armor.

I know there are lost of Units that can be made to do Anti-Tank work.
Actually I was not looking for good Anti-Tank. I was looking for something to deal with Ork War-Truck SPAM when I noticed this. I have usually used lots of Plasma, so unless I ran into Land Raider SPAM I was always good.

They are LOADS of units that can be setup for dedicated anti-tank.

Even havoc and Devastators are not stuck in that one role - give them all heavy bolters and they are death on light infantry for example.

My regular BA opponent has his anti-tank in the form of 3 5 man assautl sqauds with melta guns and melta bombs. DS (D6 scatter) BOOM.

Obliterators are still pretty decent anti-tank as well.

My "dedicated" anti-tank in my 'cron army is 5 warriors and 2 stormteks with haywire staffs in a Nightscythe.




Wat's the armour value on a War trukk? if it is a normal trukk it will be AV10/Av11 - in which case you could spam autocannons and assautl cannons to deal with them and still be viable for the mounds of troops that spill out.

 Praxiss wrote:
They are LOADS of units that can be setup for dedicated anti-tank.

Even havoc and Devastators are not stuck in that one role - give them all heavy bolters and they are death on light infantry for example.

My regular BA opponent has his anti-tank in the form of 3 5 man assautl sqauds with melta guns and melta bombs. DS (D6 scatter) BOOM.

Obliterators are still pretty decent anti-tank as well.

My "dedicated" anti-tank in my 'cron army is 5 warriors and 2 stormteks with haywire staffs in a Nightscythe.




Wat's the armour value on a War trukk? if it is a normal trukk it will be AV10/Av11 - in which case you could spam autocannons and assautl cannons to deal with them and still be viable for the mounds of troops that spill out.

I was talking about the 6th Edition Codex’s.

I know there are Buckets of units that can do Anti-Tank, I have a Sternguard with Combi-Meltas and Melta Guns and drop pod them and I run Thunder Wolves.

I also wanted to stay away from the Tactics, there are to many threads about this subject.

I wanted to Focus on those that appear to be Dedicated Anti-Tank from their apparent role on the Field. You know when someone says I am Fielding Predator Tanks or Hammer Heads, you are sure they are there for the Anti-Tank Role.

I feels like the options are limited in that way.

As far as the Ork Truck [I am unfamiliar with Orks mostly] that has the AV-14 Front Armor, it might be the Battle Wagon I was thinking of.

Yep. That would be the battlewagon.

Ok, well i only have 2 codecies to refer to, CSM and Crons.

Crons aren't technically a 6th ed 'dex so not sure where you woudl stand on there. but here we go....

The only "pure" anti-armour units i can think of in the 'Cron codex are Heavy Destroyers, maybe Scarabs as well.

But saying that, with the Gauss USR necorns aren't really in need of dedicated anti-tank.





For CSM I suppose it depends on what you deem to be anti-tank. If you are looking at S8+ then you can include:

Havocs
Heldrake (hades cannon)
Forgefiend (dual hades will murder light armour)
Obliterators
Maulerfiends (magma cutters just beg you to charge vehicles)

Short answer - it's your imagination.

No units have been removed from the new Codexes, nor have their options, with one possible exception - Daemons and their gifts have changed. However they in particular now have even more reason to take Monstrous Creatures, so that balances out.
For every other Codex, your perception's being coloured by none of the NEW units being anti-tank. Most of the reason for that is flyers - the new toys are either flyers themselves, or can be anti-flyer. The only exceptions I can think of - Deathwing Knights and Black Knights - are exceptional against anything under AV13.

 Super Ready wrote:
Short answer - it's your imagination.

No units have been removed from the new Codexes, nor have their options, with one possible exception - Daemons and their gifts have changed. However they in particular now have even more reason to take Monstrous Creatures, so that balances out.
For every other Codex, your perception's being coloured by none of the NEW units being anti-tank. Most of the reason for that is flyers - the new toys are either flyers themselves, or can be anti-flyer. The only exceptions I can think of - Deathwing Knights and Black Knights - are exceptional against anything under AV13.

Now to post word hardly use on Dakka
You are probably right.

 Super Ready wrote:
No units have been removed from the new Codexes, nor have their options, with one possible exception

Not true. Broadsides were removed and replaced with an entirely different unit using the same name. The primary Tau anti-tank unit is gone, and no replacement was offered.

Tau has a ton of anti tank, daemons have very little, no change there though

Otherwise, the two books were marine codex's, which as a general rule, have unit's that are either multi-purpose, or have vehicles that you customize for either anti-infantry, or anti tank.

And even so, the CSM got the maulerfiend with magma cutters for anti tank.

Less people run dedicated anti-tank now though, because people tend to be focussing on infantry at the mo.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
No units have been removed from the new Codexes, nor have their options, with one possible exception

Not true. Broadsides were removed and replaced with an entirely different unit using the same name. The primary Tau anti-tank unit is gone, and no replacement was offered.

Yea, tau have no replacement for the broadsides now, I mean, longer range on fusion, dirt cheap haywire grenades, novacharged riptides with S9AP2 barrages, dirt cheap piranhas, dual-fusion crisis suits and the ability to give pretty much anything tank hunters is just so WEAK.

How will tau even compete without spamming 9 S10AP1 guns for only 70 points each, on a 2 wound T4 2+ models, with an alternate AI gun that needs no LOS attached? the codex is ruined forever!
The nerfed it all the way to S8AP1 and only reduced the cost by 5 points! who cares about the free multi-tracker, the free blacksun filter, and the fact the second gun turned into TL gun and now ignores cover? these so called "upgrades" are worthless the wargear used to cost only 8, and the upgrades to the secondary gun are worth no more then 10 points extra.

It turned from S10AP1 to a lame S8AP1, and only got an effective price reduction of 23 points. SUCH A RIPOFF
Its not like it was the single most OP anti-tank unit in the game before or anything!



/sarcasm

As for the general topic, AT is not reduced, only the insane AT got down a peg, as it should. there have been some absurd stuff around, and except IG it will be really, really rare to see multiple heavy tanks around. (sure, necron CAN spam some high AV, but a single pen result and even if it survived it turns into paper, and BA can do it but at absurd points) I suspect the next IG codex will also reduce the parking lot they can bring, you got a second FoC chart at 2000 now, no need for them to cram 9 tanks into a single one.

 BoomWolf wrote:
As for the general topic, AT is not reduced, only the insane AT got down a peg, as it should. There have been some absurd stuff around.

Maybe that is what I have been seeing.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yea, tau have no replacement for the broadsides now, I mean, longer range on fusion, dirt cheap haywire grenades, novacharged riptides with S9AP2 barrages, dirt cheap piranhas, dual-fusion crisis suits and the ability to give pretty much anything tank hunters is just so WEAK.

You're right, they don't have a replacement. Broadsides were the only way to deal with tanks at long range. All of the other options (besides the Hammerhead, which can't bring anywhere near the consistency Broadsides had) either can't deal with heavy tanks, or require getting up close with melta. The option to sit back and engage tanks from long range has been removed from the codex with no equivalent unit to replace it. No matter how you look at it that's a reduction in anti-tank shooting.

Now, you can argue all you want that the Tau codex is still capable of winning, but that wasn't the question here. The thread is about whether or not anti-tank options have been removed, not whether or not you can win a game without railguns.

I'll take your back on this one.

Firstly, meta switching to terminators and monstrous creatures means less slots of melta and more needed plasma. Secondly, the ability to strip hull points means that game designers have a broader understanding of what "anti-tank" means now. No longer do you have the option of "lascannons/meltaguns" and "nothing".

Thirdly, I'd agree with your overall assessment. Tau went from S10 terrors to... well... not. Dark Angels came out as the plasma space marines. CSM got an autocannon/superflamer flier, and got assault cannons back on their obliterators. Demons have practically no serious anti-tank shooting weapons. Then before that you have necron, which always worked best by glancing things, but they seem to have doubled down on that, especially with the introduction of tesla weapons.

Meanwhile, let's go through the recent codices and look for weapons that are dedicated to one-shotting tanks. I see longstrike, and... umm...

No, hang on, I'll think of another one...

 Anpu42 wrote:


I was looking at the 6th Edition Codex’s and I think I noticed a trend. There is a lack of dedicated Anti-Tank Units in them.
I know you can build some good Anti-Tank Units, Land Speeders with Multi-Meltas, Chaos Terminators with Combi-Meltas and Crisis Suits with Fusion Blaster. I am talking about Units that both historically and by their nature are Dedicated Anti-Tank.
I know some of them are good and some of them are bad, I don’t want to get into that.

Chaos Space Marines:
>Havocs
>Land Raiders
>Predators

Dark Angels:
>Devastators
>Land Raiders
>Predators

Tau:
>Hamerheads

Are you only counting stuff that can kill AV14 tanks at long range? You're missing a ton of AT units in each of those columns, not all can kill AV14 easily (though even those you're missing, like Oblits, lascannon armed Helbrutes, etc) but there are lots of AT units like Forgefiends and Broadsides that murder mid AV tanks.


Anti-tank is alive and very well, and there's still a very good reason why there aren't really any mechanized power builds outside of perhaps Necrons in 6E.

Well, the problem there is your definition of 'one shotting tanks' bas been skewed to 'one shotting AV14 with a high BS'. A Broadside can one shot tank under AV 14 still. It's just harder. A non Longstrike Hammerhead can still oneshot an AV14 vehicle, it's just got a lower BS.

It's funny that you make the discintion of the old anti tank being 'lascannon or nothing', that there's not better varied levels of anti tank, and yet make the same black and white claim about one shotting tanks - Longstike or nothing.

They are just shifting Easy (high chance) AV 14 removal from Longrange units to close range units. you know to blow up that AV 14 target you need to "risk" something. not camp a corner and laugh as hits LOS.

 -Loki- wrote:
Well, the problem there is your definition of 'one shotting tanks' bas been skewed to 'one shotting AV14 with a high BS'. A Broadside can one shot tank under AV 14 still. It's just harder. A non Longstrike Hammerhead can still oneshot an AV14 vehicle, it's just got a lower BS.

It's about reliability. Old Broadsides could consistently kill whatever vehicle you pointed them at. New Broadsides have trouble with even AV 12 (you now have the same chance against AV 12 as old Broadsides had against AV 14), and non-Longstrike Hammerheads are terrible (BS 4 and losing tank hunters = high chance of failure with a single shot). So Tau long-range anti-tank has gone from consistently dealing with priority threats to maybe killing a vehicle if you roll well and focus a lot of fire on it. There's absolutely no way to look at this and say that it isn't a major step down.

A step don from overpowered is a step in the right direction.

No other codex had anything remotely as powerful in terms of long-range AT, and I am GLAD they shoved it down, it made me feel bad to used them.
Auto-kill across the table to all tanks with a unit far cheaper then said tank is idiotic.

-Loki- wrote:It's funny that you make the discintion of the old anti tank being 'lascannon or nothing', that there's not better varied levels of anti tank, and yet make the same black and white claim about one shotting tanks - Longstike or nothing.

Sorry, I meant to refer to new things. What are new units that have been added that can take down heavy vehicles in a few shots? As best I can tell, the new units and options coming out in the new codices do tend to heavily favor lots of mid-strength shooting over smaller amounts of shots that come with the S and Ap to reliably cause vehicle explosions.

 BoomWolf wrote:
A step don from overpowered is a step in the right direction.

Broadsides were never overpowered.

No other codex had anything remotely as powerful in terms of long-range AT, and I am GLAD they shoved it down, it made me feel bad to used them.

And guess what: Tau are the pure elite shooting codex. They should be able to out-shoot every other army at long range.

Auto-kill across the table to all tanks with a unit far cheaper then said tank is idiotic.

Broadsides were never an auto-kill.

Ohhhh, ok... I forgot the nerf to Broadsides' rail rifles. Fair enough, that particular case is a downer - but as mentioned, there are plenty of other options in the new Codex to balance that out. Aside from range, haywire grenades on plentiful Troops are more reliable for anti-tank than a one-shot at S10 will ever be.

If you want to destroy Trukks, as Tau you can probably just spam firewarrior fire at them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
And guess what: Tau are the pure elite shooting codex. They should be able to out-shoot every other army at long range.

The Imperial Guard are also a shooting army. Why shouldn't they be able to match the Tau in a shooting match? Actually, the Guard is known far more for long-ranged firepower than the Tau are.

Did you not note Broadsides in the antitank list? o.0

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Did you not note Broadsides in the antitank list? o.0

Orginaly then I relised I ment Hammerheads


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I re-read some things and might have come up with a combination that might make Broadsides work at Anti-Armor:
Commander with Puretide Engram Neurochip [Running on Tank Hunter] and some Markerlights out there, this should give a good chance to Glance a Land Raider or Battle Wagon to death.

 Peregrine wrote:


Broadsides were never overpowered.

your kidding, right?

He's probably not kidding; more's the pity.

Or a tau player. No offence byt 190 for 3 means 9 is easily spammable. you don't know OP until you lose 3 landraiders a turn.

 Melissia wrote:
The Imperial Guard are also a shooting army. Why shouldn't they be able to match the Tau in a shooting match? Actually, the Guard is known far more for long-ranged firepower than the Tau are.

Because "elite" is the key point. IG are the horde shooting army, their individual guns may only be lascannons and missile launchers but they can bring them in huge quantities. Tau are the elite shooting army, they're not supposed to have the sheer horde of guns but each unit is supposed to be top-tier in its role (STR 10 AP 1 for static heavy weapons, JSJ crisis suits at midrange, etc).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Or a tau player. No offence byt 190 for 3 means 9 is easily spammable. you don't know OP until you lose 3 landraiders a turn.

Sorry, but claiming absurdly good rolling as a representative example is kind of dishonest. A full nine Broadsides get you 2.25 penetrating hits against AV 14, and 1.125 "explodes" results. That will consistently kill ONE LR, but killing three of them in a turn has way more to do with luck than balance.

And let's not forget the point cost. A 700+ point dedicated anti-tank unit that takes up all of your heavy support slots should be able to consistently kill a 250 point Land Raider in a single round of shooting.