Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I had a game the other night that brought some oddities. We rolled the relic (again >.<. What happened around turn 4 was odd though. My opponent was wining buy 3 he had line breaker, slay the warlord and first blood. So my only option was to try for a tie by seizing the relic. My opponent then did something odd. He tank shocked his land raider right on top of the relic in such a way that I couldn't place a model to seize. Now I have power klaws so I charged and wrecked the land raider he then stated that I still couldn't seize the relic becuase it was underneath the wreck. Seemed very strange but according to the rules I couldn't see a way to refute his claim. Since the store owners were giving us nudges to start wrapping things up I just called GG and shook his hand. Now I don't mind losing. I lose most of my games anyway but it is annoying to lose becuase of a rules oversight on the missions part. Does anyone know if there's a FAQ for this?

Another thing that came up during the game was a wound allocation clarification. I know that once you start wounding a model you have to keep wounding it tell it dies and then move on to the next model, but what about models that are already wounded from a previos round of combat. I had a unit of nobs and one had a wound on it from a previous turn. I then took more winds on the next turn and my opponent insisted that I had to wound the wounded nob first. I disagreed since I get to choose we're the wounds went and I hadn't my first wound from that rounds wound pool that I could choose to place it on any of the other models that were in base to base with the attacking models. I've seen this done on many battle reports. Which way is the correct way? I don't want to accidently cheat anyone.

I was under the impression that the objective just moves up on top of the land raider and you can claim it by testing for dangerous terrain. At least thats how we play that.

Frankly the whole idea that you could move the land raider on top of the objective seems a bit off to me, I wouldn't play it that way, but I can't immediately think of a rule that prevents it...

As for the wreckage stopping you from capturing it, that's just silly. I'd play it like Mywik, if your opponent insists then they seem (to me at least) to be trying to cheat you out of a fair game. One can argue common sense back and forth, but gamerule-wise being able to render the objective uncapturable in that way just seems silly.

As for the wound allocation question, you were entirely correct. Reading the wording for wound allocation (pg 15 in the hardback rulebook), The process is very clear and makes no mention of previously wounded models. Pick closest model, allocate wounds until it is dead, repeat.

EDIT: Oops, didn't realise you were talking about allocation in assault, so more clarification: Firstly, (page 25 in the hardback) you are told to allocate wounds just like in the shooting phase. Secondly, it's made very clear below the bullet points that you must allocate wounds onto the same model until either it dies or the wound pool has been emptied. As it is the next turn, the wound pool has of course been emptied and so you can pick a new first target out of the closest models

IIRC the objectives in missions, including the relic, are considered impassable terrain. He can't move a land raider onto impassable terrain making his little move illegal, he would have stopped right at the edge of the relic during his tank shock.

Could be wrong, don't have my book with me, but I remember reading that you should pick items to be your markers that make it clear you have to go around, or something like that.

What about say a Monolith then?

Its a Heavy Skimmer !

I couldn't find anything stating that the relic would appear on top of the land raider if it was wrecked. Since I couldn't be said I couldn't claim it. The rulebook says you can't place it in impassable terrain but nothing about it being impassable.

a non wrecked land raider can stop you from getting close enough to cap the relic, just like enough normal models could do the same.

a wrecked one just counts as difficult/dangerous terrain, that you can move through/over and cap the relic off of, though it still makes it harder due to diff/dang terrain rolls.

Do you have a rule quote for that so I can show my opponent otherwise he wont allow it.

the rule that allows a land raider, or a group of dudes to "block" the relic is that you are not allowed to be within 1" of enemy models.

the rule about vehicles becoming diff/dang terrain after being wrecked is in the vehicle section of the BRB (pg 73 or 74 I think)

so why would terrain stop you from capping the relic? even if the land raiders right on top of it, you cant place things "under" terrain, besides which, the wrecked vehicle is just dangerous/diff terrain, not impassible, so even if they did have a specific rule allowing them to park on top of the relic, "they dont", the rules say you are allowed to move through difficult/dangerous terrain provided you make the appropriate rolls.
if they argue that moving through the wrecked vehicle is unrealistic, well too bad for them, its unrealistic for them to "park" on top of a base that counts as something you moving into btb contact with in the first place. normal infantry models dont ignore the relic's base, so why vehicles would get to iggnore a physical base that can be moved into BtB contact with needs a rule to back it up. so does placing any base under a model, or even on top of one.


ask them to show you the rule that says you cannot move through difficult and/or dangerous terrain (because when its wrecked, thats all the land raider is)

BRB p121 defines objectives as, "markers, coins, or other counters around 1 to 2 inches in diameter." They are usually flat, and are not supplied by GW. My FLGS uses poker chips. They do not appear to be models, although it is fun to use models to represent them.

There is one relevant rule on p131: "If the Relic is dropped in impassable terrain, place it as close as possible to the point where it was dropped that is not impassable terrain."
Since it is physically impossible to go underneath a wrecked vehicle, I would say that becomes impassable. The Relic would then be scooted out from underneath, or moved on top of the wreck.

Also, what easysauce said about the Relic (as opposed to other objectives) having a base seems right. I'd go with that.

yeah, as above, either the relic is a based model that cannot share space with other based models, so the LR cant move on top in the first place,

or its not, and as soon as they claim the relics now in impassible terrain due to vehicle on top of it, then it gets moved out of impassible terrain

(conversly if its not a phsycial model, then the LR wont block it at all, even without impassable terrain, as you would only need to be within a certain distance, as opposed to BtB)

if they claim its not behind impassible, then you can move through the difficult terrain into BtB.

of these three possible scenarios, the top one is almost definetly RAI, but they are all technically Rinterpretations of RAW, but none would make the relic uncappable.

As for any wrecked vehicle that I difficult to move units into (monoliths could certainly count), you can always site wobbly model syndrome and have your model count as standing wherever it needs to stand to be in base contact with the relic.

I think the idea of moving a vehicle on top of any relic/objective to be just plain unsporting, even if the item in question is modeled in such a way as to make the move possible. Rulewise, there's no clear answer, so best to discuss it with your opponent before hand.

Well you could always ask your opponent to open the assault-ramp-hatch to indicate it's wrecked... And then walk a dude inside of it (if he will fit) (getting you within 3" of a normal obj. but not in physical contact with the relic to pick it up in this instance)

and if you are the LR-owning player, I suppose you could be a d-bag and glue your doors closed to avoid this.

The problem I'm having is the relic is just a token not a model and if I don't have a rule stating that the token can be moved then he won't allow it I'm sure. He requires rules to verify that something can be done. I'm not agreeing with this statement however since your escentially breaking the mission but still I can't refute him. I can't find anything in the rule book that says he can't park on top of it. And since I can't move in base to base with the physical relic token becuase of the wrecked land raider then I can't claim it. Since there's no rule stating I can move the relic since its not specifically classified as impassable terrain then I can't move it. The wreck would be classified as difficult/ dangerous, but the token is underneath so I'm not really sure.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
I think the idea of moving a vehicle on top of any relic/objective to be just plain unsporting, even if the item in question is modeled in such a way as to make the move possible. Rulewise, there's no clear answer, so best to discuss it with your opponent before hand.

This happened to me in a game, but it was my Drop Pod that scattered directly on top of the relic on turn 4, and my opponent could not destroy the pod, so he lost because he could not get into contact with the relic.

I of course made sure that his Hive Guard got assaulted by my Assault Terminators so he had nothing left to kill the pod. Was that unsporting, or just blind luck?

skyfi wrote:
and if you are the LR-owning player, I suppose you could be a d-bag and glue your doors closed to avoid this.

So am I a "d-bag" because I glued my LR doors shut well before 6th came out?

Well use the impassable terrain rule for the relic on your friend since he says you cannot get to it then its impassable after the wreck and move the relic so you can legally get to it.

Side note that dudes a d-bag

again, we cant say that the relic is a psyical model with a base that must be touched in BtB contact with another model for scoring purposes,

but its not a psycial base for the purposes of occupying space, if it doesnt occupy space, how can we move into base to base?

one can take either position, and still cap the relic,

its only when someone imposes a "schrodingers" effect of the relic being both a pysical base that must be in contact with anothe base to score, while at the same time isnt a physical base, so it can be covered up by another model.

the relic is either a phsyical base, or its not, one cannot say its psyical for the purpose that benifits me (ie you not being in BtB contact) but not for the purpose that is a detrement (cant stack psycial models or bases on top of each other)

it doesnt get to be pysical when you want to deny your opponent scoring because hes not in BtB, at the same time as you calling it "non psyical" so your land raider (or other vehicle) could move on it in the first place.

the relic must be one or the other, not both simultainously with the benificial effects being used from both states, while ignoring the detrements,

so while either interpretation of what the relic is could be correct, be it phsyical model, or abstact location marker, picking and choosing from both states is definetly not playing by the rules.

easysauce wrote:
again, we cant say that the relic is a psyical model with a base that must be touched in BtB contact with another model for scoring purposes.

No, the Relic is never a model.

"In addidon to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" P. 3

The relic does not have a characteristics profile and it does not have a unit type, therefore it is not a model.

It is simply a marker as noted on page 131.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Fafnir13 wrote:
I think the idea of moving a vehicle on top of any relic/objective to be just plain unsporting, even if the item in question is modeled in such a way as to make the move possible. Rulewise, there's no clear answer, so best to discuss it with your opponent before hand.

This happened to me in a game, but it was my Drop Pod that scattered directly on top of the relic on turn 4, and my opponent could not destroy the pod, so he lost because he could not get into contact with the relic.

I of course made sure that his Hive Guard got assaulted by my Assault Terminators so he had nothing left to kill the pod. Was that unsporting, or just blind luck?

skyfi wrote:
and if you are the LR-owning player, I suppose you could be a d-bag and glue your doors closed to avoid this.

So am I a "d-bag" because I glued my LR doors shut well before 6th came out?

Nope you'd be a d-bag if you modeled for advantage for the purpose of denying objective contest-ability.

If you were too lazy to paint inside of your LR, or just did it because.. there is no shame on you.

If you were cognizant of this happenstance, and glued your doors shut solely to gain an advantage... I think it's pretty clear MFA. It doesn't automatically make you a d-bag. just in my book.

skyfi wrote:

If you were too lazy to paint inside of your LR, or just did it because.. there is no shame on you.

What about if you weren't lazy, and you didn't do it "just because," but rather had a good reason.
Like, the consoles inside the LR were too cool to leave inside a vehicle, so you used them for a piece of terrain. And then you needed to glue the doors shut because you didn't want the inside of your LR to look barren.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

skyfi wrote:

If you were too lazy to paint inside of your LR, or just did it because.. there is no shame on you.

What about if you weren't lazy, and you didn't do it "just because," but rather had a good reason.
Like, the consoles inside the LR were too cool to leave inside a vehicle, so you used them for a piece of terrain. And then you needed to glue the doors shut because you didn't want the inside of your LR to look barren.

good enough for me to not think you're a MFA bag o' phallus-es. "just because" could be any valid reason like you have stated... The only reason I would ever think someone was a gakhead for doing it, is if he specifically read this thread, or another like it, or heard this tactic/came up with it... and then decided well fellas im gonna glue my doors shut and say the lot of you all !

I love the LR control panel. In fact my friend plays crimson fists and has the inside of it painted as deathwing still from when I previously owned it (and painted it 10 years ago, so its quite nostalgic to me). I love "peekin up her dress".

edit: i can't spell. my old online alias should of been Adwell CantsSpellForGak.. not KantDewMaff..

I don't know I guess their isn't anyway to resolve it with him. He insist its legal to do and that's not impassable but you still can't claim it.

 wowsmash wrote:
I don't know I guess their isn't anyway to resolve it with him. He insist its legal to do and that's not impassable but you still can't claim it.

page 9 has rule to cover this I think, off! (at least thats a 50% shot of not getting a wonky game as opposed to 100% of games being wonky if always playing by his interpretation.)

skyfi wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
I don't know I guess their isn't anyway to resolve it with him. He insist its legal to do and that's not impassable but you still can't claim it.

page 9 has rule to cover this I think, off! (at least thats a 50% shot of not getting a wonky game as opposed to 100% of games being wonky if always playing by his interpretation.)

Not even needed. (And does not count in this forum, as per the tenets of the forum).

A wrecked vehicle is difficult and dangerous terrain. you can move through difficult and dangerous terrain by rolling a Diff terrain test and taking any dangerous terrain tests.

Use WMS if you can not tell the exact location of any given model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

skyfi wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
I don't know I guess their isn't anyway to resolve it with him. He insist its legal to do and that's not impassable but you still can't claim it.

page 9 has rule to cover this I think, off! (at least thats a 50% shot of not getting a wonky game as opposed to 100% of games being wonky if always playing by his interpretation.)

Not even needed. (And does not count in this forum, as per the tenets of the forum).

A wrecked vehicle is difficult and dangerous terrain. you can move through difficult and dangerous terrain by rolling a Diff terrain test and taking any dangerous terrain tests.

Use WMS if you can not tell the exact location of any given model.

Ok, Hows is WMS relevant? The relic is on the table top, LR parked on top of the relic. You can't place your model on the TOP of the LR due to WMS.. so you place token there and assume thats its location... what gives you option to place the WMS token UNDER the LR (in base to base with relic)? (can I place a WMS token in the space already taken up by the LR? If so, who can I claim LOS to? Who can claim LOS to that model? it seems you could hide any solo model (or small unit) inside of a wrecked rhino by this logic.. making them impervious to everything as they can't even be assaulted because chargers don't have LOS to the target?

Or am I just overthinking this?

I'm unsure how this is supposed to solve the situation?

It's either difficult and dangerous terrain, in which the opposing models into contact by making the appropriate rolls.

or;

It's impassable terrain, in which you follow the rules for the relic, and move it to the closest spot in which it is not in impassable terrain.

One or the other.

Sounds like the OP just needs to be a little more assertive.

Best answer I can come up with per the rules.

A vehicle that is wrecked counts as both difficult and dangerous terrain.
Difficult terrain reads "Note that, as part of their move through difficult terrain, models can move through walls, closed doors and windows, and all similarly solid obstacles, unless the players have agreed that a certain wall or obstacle is impassable."

This is p. 90 in the small rulebook.
I would say the wrecked landraider seems to be a similarly solid obstacle in this instance.

If you want my opinion...
He sounds like a d-bag. Even if the wound allocation thing was a genuine mistake, exploiting an unclear wording is just bad sportsmanship. Unless it's a tourny, I'd just suggest you avoid playing him.

As for the rules question: What they said. If the land raider can't be moved on, it's impassible and you move the marker. If it can be moved on, then move an ork boy on top of it and just take the relic

I have the answer! Roleplay, roll your difficult/dangerous terrain test, and if he passees, state that the ork with the Power Klaw starts cutting open the land raider to get the relic! Problem solved, and you are much cooler for even RPing in 40k!

skyfi wrote:
Ok, Hows is WMS relevant? The relic is on the table top, LR parked on top of the relic. You can't place your model on the TOP of the LR due to WMS.. so you place token there and assume thats its location... what gives you option to place the WMS token UNDER the LR (in base to base with relic)? (can I place a WMS token in the space already taken up by the LR? If so, who can I claim LOS to? Who can claim LOS to that model? it seems you could hide any solo model (or small unit) inside of a wrecked rhino by this logic.. making them impervious to everything as they can't even be assaulted because chargers don't have LOS to the target?

Or am I just overthinking this?

I'm unsure how this is supposed to solve the situation?

WMS is relevant because you can not physically place a model in contact with the relic because the wrecked LR is there. But that does not stop you from picking it up.

Had the LR not been wrecked, then you could not get within 1 inch of the LR (Unless you assaulted it) and therefore could not get the relic in base contact.

A vehicle that is wrecked counts as both difficult and dangerous terrain.

Difficult terrain reads "Note that, as part of their move through difficult terrain, models can move through walls, closed doors and windows, and all similarly solid obstacles, unless the players have agreed that a certain wall or obstacle is impassable."