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Marine assault squads are a unit that do not need any special rules to become useful.

No matter how many models in the unit, any two models in an assault squad may exchange one of their weapons with a plasma gun, flamer, meltagun, or plasma gun, without any squad size requirement, for the usual points.

They may definitely never have a razorback. Their rhino or pod is free if they drop their packs.


That is 120 points for a pair of five wound flying meltaguns, comparable to a pair of attack bikes.












the following are not powerful or useful options and exist only for role play / fluffy style armies and because it was the case in second edition. Any model in an assault squad may replace either of its weapons with a plasma pistol or power weapon for fifteen points. the preceding are not powerful or useful options and exist only for role play / fluffy style armies and because it was the case in second edition. Really, they are not options to take for winning games


or 235 points for six to ten power axe attacks with ten wounds.

Easy! Anyone as super as a marine rates a power weapon. Tactical squads do not get power weapons and need full squad sizes because their jobs are to have small arms fights to protect their squad weapons and not over-commit. Assault squads' jobs are to flame the heck out of heavy weapon platoons and clean up the close combats that tactical squads do not have time for.

Vanguard veterans were invented because every codex has to introduce three new boxed sets. They do not exist.

Chainswords : you cannot change these. They are a characteristic of really only one unit in the army, which makes it slightly less desirable to have dedicated rules when other units like stern guard and venerable dreads use up that allowance. They are prominently incidental to many models like sergeants though, and while those units would not benefit from one model with running or dared or whatever, it would still be an additional ability involving points and that could not be exchanged for an upgrade at the same price as a bolt pistol or combat weapon could. Chainsword rules are well in surplus to requirements.

I agree on vanilla marines getting meltaguns as an option for their assault squads. Its just silly for them not to have it, and I think that would make them worth considering.

Not sold on all of them getting power weapons and PP as options. That could be too powerful.

Well my Assault Marines do get meltaguns, however its only one per 5 Marines. You can get three plasma pistols provide you give one to the Sgt. however IMHO the Sgt. is way better off with a TH/SS. Take off the jump packs and get a drop pod for free, then kiss your enemies tanks goodbye turn one. Pure nastyness in a can.

The actual point is getting two guns at the minimum squad size, and mostly for flamers or plasma since full on multi-meltas come from anywhere.

Power weapons are there for flavor. They are not scoring and they are too expensive to be good at close combat. Imagine if marines had a powerful cc unit.

Wait my apologies. Aren't Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Termies rather powerful CC units?

 StarTrotter wrote:
Wait my apologies. Aren't Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Termies rather powerful CC units?

They are.

Assault marines aren't one of "those" units that gets power weapons for every single member. They are not an elite unit, such as chaos chose, wolf guard or vanguard veterans. They are, as per official fluff (which has been like that for a long time), an almost direct promotion from scout marines. They don't carry that many elite relics. One power weapon/plasma pistol per squad is thee to give them an extra chance against tougher assault units.

10 BA Assaults, scoring, with 3 infernus pistols (mini-melta) in the squad can be hilarious deep striking behind a squadron of tanks....... Oh, nice tank, see my relic pistol?????

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
10 BA Assaults, scoring, with 3 infernus pistols (mini-melta) in the squad can be hilarious deep striking behind a squadron of tanks....... Oh, nice tank, see my relic pistol?????

You're better off giving the marines full Meltaguns, even DoA isn't accurate enough to reliably place your Infernus pistols within 3" of a tank for the extra penetration roll. Losing 1 attack for those 2 marines is worth doubling your melta range, and they're cheaper than the pistols.

I guess you could be lazy and say that Chainswords give AP5 and call it a day if you want them to stand out.

 Kain wrote:
I guess you could be lazy and say that Chainswords give AP5 and call it a day if you want them to stand out.

Its odd that they are't in the first place. They could be carrying a harmless leaf and brush it against the enemies face with the most immediate threat being hay fever for all the rules care.

I think if you were to make Assault Marines useful, you'd probably just have to reduce the points cost for either meltabombs or the units themselves, or maybe even have them with boltguns Imagine if it was just a 5pt upgrade for a marine squad to have a jetpack, and you could swap out boltguns etc. for chainswords and ccws, and, as per chainswords, they were never intended to be special weapons with their own stats, even if in the fluff they are these manwreckers, they were just a cool idea, and something used to make a space marine stand out from say, Imperial Guard Conscripts with knives

Yes, I like melta guns too, just depends on the army I am facing.

OR maybe we could make them like the chaos raptors, like they are supposed to? 17pts a model, ability to take meltaguns, plasmaguns or flamers 1/5guys in a squad, max squad size 10, allow one special CCW.

Kain wrote:I guess you could be lazy and say that Chainswords give AP5 and call it a day if you want them to stand out.

It is interesting that you say "always," since there are only constrained ways. First is the notion of changing chainswords at all. Other units, even in the same army, often have chainsword equipped models. Since ap5 is a characteristics that other models would not have, these models with chainswords, like sergeants, would come with a points price compared to models in the same unit without one. Also, since those sergeants do not always have chainswords, they would need to be an option instead of base equipment. Since any rules associated with chainswords, whether they were the ones you suggested or other ones, would be mostly irrelevant to they way a tactical or devastator squad works, chainswords would become irrelevant wargear and those models would be discouraged by the rules. The rules would erase chainswords from those units.

Then there is the actual suggestion of ap5. "If you want them to stand out" is not actually the OP.

LlamaAgility wrote:Assault marines aren't one of "those" units that gets power weapons for every single member. They are not an elite unit, such as chaos chose, wolf guard or vanguard veterans. They are, as per official fluff (which has been like that for a long time), an almost direct promotion from scout marines. They don't carry that many elite relics. One power weapon/plasma pistol per squad is thee to give them an extra chance against tougher assault units.

You are bringing up the wrong background problem. The background problem that could actually be an issue is that it's possible a Black Consul or other codex adherent marine would say it is wrong for an assault squad to have more than one special weapon per five members. That is the right thing to object to.

You also have a bad underlying premise. You say that assault marines are promoted directly from scout marines. The actual case is that marines in one company, the eighth, are all in assault squads, and most of them are young or junior marines who were novices/scouts not long before. However, marines in the battle companies are also members of assault squads, and many members of the eighth company have been marines for a very long time. There are no, as you call them, "assault marines." There are only regular "marines" that are in assault squads, and marines have to be in assault squads before they can be in tactical squads. However, those marines can join assault squads again later, or never join tactical squads in the first place. There is no seniority inference that can be made about assault squads generally, which are the closest a concept comes to your "assault marines."

Then the conclusion you draw from that bad premise is wrong. An eighteen year old guard officer with can have a power weapon; power weapons are wires connected to batteries. Tactical and scout squads do not have power weapons because using power weapons is the exact opposite of either of those squad types' jobs. Assault squads are specifically constituted in part to fight close combats, which is why the assault squads of second edition have the option for any of their models to take special close combat weapons.

StarTrotter wrote:Wait my apologies. Aren't Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Termies rather powerful CC units?

What do you mean by powerful? If you mean to ask if they usually win when they are in close combat, then the answer is "only if the unit they are fighting are not slugga boys." Since it is very easy to end up in close combat with slugga boys, on balance they are kind of powerful CC units.

If you meant "powerful" in the context of being good at winning games, then no, they are not very helpful for winning games. They are only somewhat likely to get into close combat with an enemy you need them to kill, and if they do they have taken a huge percentage of the army's points to kill one or two enemy units, since they cannot get into more than a few combats per game.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Kain wrote:I guess you could be lazy and say that Chainswords give AP5 and call it a day if you want them to stand out.

It is interesting that you say "always," since there are only constrained ways. First is the notion of changing chainswords at all. Other units, even in the same army, often have chainsword equipped models. Since ap5 is a characteristics that other models would not have, these models with chainswords, like sergeants, would come with a points price compared to models in the same unit without one. Also, since those sergeants do not always have chainswords, they would need to be an option instead of base equipment. Since any rules associated with chainswords, whether they were the ones you suggested or other ones, would be mostly irrelevant to they way a tactical or devastator squad works, chainswords would become irrelevant wargear and those models would be discouraged by the rules. The rules would erase chainswords from those units.

Then there is the actual suggestion of ap5. "If you want them to stand out" is not actually the OP.

I actually meant that *all* chainswords in the game would have AP5, whether used by the Imperial Guard, Orks, Sisters of Battle, Eldar, Chaos, or Space Marines.

Or make all chainswords rending, its not unrealistic

 Grey Templar wrote:
I agree on vanilla marines getting meltaguns as an option for their assault squads. Its just silly for them not to have it, and I think that would make them worth considering.

Not sold on all of them getting power weapons and PP as options. That could be too powerful.

Well, all Grey Knights get Nemesis Force Weapons and Storm Bolters and cost 4 points more per model then assault marines, if its good enough for them...

Sorry, its late and I am being sarcastic. I agree its too powerful for assault marines to get power weapons for free. There is a reason why it costs them 15 points to buy a basic power weapon, ignoring armor 3+ is huge.

But I admit I don't understand the lack of any AP, or a Str bonus, on chainswords. AP 5 seems reasonable but maybe add 1 point to the cost of the troop in that case.

Assault Marines are simply overshadowed in their own slot. They a full ten man unit costs as much as a TML Stormtalon. That is not good.

So we should move them. Make them troops.

As they are, Assault Marines are impossible to balance without giving them more than they should get. 18 ppm is a good price for models with 2 attacks that can move 12" in the movement phase. However, there are too many other options in the Fast Attack slot, and Assault marines are underpowered compared to them. However, compared to other units in the Troops slot, they are pretty balanced. Compared to Tactical marines, they lose bolters and the ability to take heavy weapons, and compared to scouts they lose the ability to be snipers or infiltrate.

Assault Marines would be just fine in the troops slot.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Or make all chainswords rending, its not unrealistic

Given that Chainaxes have AP4 and Power axes have AP2 vs Power swords AP1 I'd say making Chainswords AP5 would be more in line with how the sword vs axe thing goes in GW.

From the beginning of Sixth Edition, I thought ALL jump infantry should have the ability to assault fliers with one attack hitting on a 6, be it bomb or sword swipe. That would look SO cool.

 thunderingjove wrote:
From the beginning of Sixth Edition, I thought ALL jump infantry should have the ability to assault fliers with one attack hitting on a 6, be it bomb or sword swipe. That would look SO cool.

We all played space marine too.

Kain wrote:

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Or make all chainswords rending, its not unrealistic

Given that Chainaxes have AP4 and Power axes have AP2 vs Power swords AP1 I'd say making Chainswords AP5 would be more in line with how the sword vs axe thing goes in GW.

I feel personally disappointed by these sentiments. It makes me very sad that people will make statements while declining, and actually rejecting, any interrogation of their own thoughts or any regard of other thoughts.

McNinja wrote:Assault Marines are simply overshadowed in their own slot. They a full ten man unit costs as much as a TML Stormtalon. That is not good.

So we should move them. Make them troops.

As they are, Assault Marines are impossible to balance without giving them more than they should get. 18 ppm is a good price for models with 2 attacks that can move 12" in the movement phase. However, there are too many other options in the Fast Attack slot, and Assault marines are underpowered compared to them. However, compared to other units in the Troops slot, they are pretty balanced. Compared to Tactical marines, they lose bolters and the ability to take heavy weapons, and compared to scouts they lose the ability to be snipers or infiltrate.

Assault Marines would be just fine in the troops slot.

This is within the set of solutions acceptable for consideration.


It is interesting that you say they cannot be balanced without being given me than they should have. If for instance they had five models with two plasma rifles, and gave up their veteran sergeant to become ten points cheaper as a unit, there are two questions :

* would they not be competitive with land speeders, especially if they took a rhino instead of jump packs to block enemy movement?

And

* would that not be more background compliant, as a small auxiliary unit, than large numbers of front line scoring assault squads?

Personally I think the way it works now is fine for most Marine armies. However I do agree that if a Marine army has them as Troops or can have them as Troops then it would make more sense to restrict the weapons (looking at you, Codex Blood Angels).

Well, making them troops would lessen the originality of Wardex: Blood Angels. They are a chapter that's supposed to make this happen. Maybe allow a limited number as troops? Or maybe just say a captain or chapter master with a jump pack makes all assault marines troops. Maybe same for bikes too?

It is impossible to "lessen originality," because originality does not come in degrees; something either began the practice or it did not, it cannot be more or less original. The current blood angels book did not originate troops section assault squads.

Then I'm interested in why you mention this idea of wargear equipped characters changing force organization. It does occur in almost every thread related to the topic. Do you have any particular thoughts of your own on why it might be a good idea?

I think he meant Uniqueness.

"unique," as you can infer from its roots, means singular. So it is also impossible to make something less or more unique.

It's not important, I am sure the meaning was that it would reduce the distinctiveness or remove the unique quality of the Mat Ward book.

It might have been closely related to another point, which is that Blood Angels use assault squads in a way that allows them to be troops, and other chapters do not, even if they are deploying an entire Eighth Company at once.

Squads mounted on bikes are sometimes main line squads and not always support squads the way assault squads are. For some chapters bikes are situational alternatives to rhinos.

pelicaniforce wrote:
"unique," as you can infer from its roots, means singular. So it is also impossible to make something less or more unique.

It's not important, I am sure the meaning was that it would reduce the distinctiveness or remove the unique quality of the Mat Ward book.

It might have been closely related to another point, which is that Blood Angels use assault squads in a way that allows them to be troops, and other chapters do not, even if they are deploying an entire Eighth Company at once.

Squads mounted on bikes are sometimes main line squads and not always support squads the way assault squads are. For some chapters bikes are situational alternatives to rhinos.

Instead of giving us all an english lesson we don't need, hows about we answer the question Llama posed.

Regardless of what the fluff says, C:SM captains and CM's should be able to take a Jump Pack and make assault marines troops. It's a 25 point upgrade, so it isn't cheap, but it unlocks fantastic troops that are never used in their own slot.

This just may be one of GW's business scheme to make one of the coolest looking models in the game so useless so that people buy assault marine boxes just to paint them, then get a box of flier just because everyone else has fliers and they pwn your army like no other.

Regarding that note about assault marines being troops - IT WOULD BE AWESOME! But that would take away a lot of uniqueness the BA has to offer (as many people previously stated).

And yes, chainswords (inc. its equivalents) needs some sort of additional property, whether it be AP5, rending, etc. There is no way a chainsaw blade deals same damage as scout's oversized hunting knife. AP5 seems very befitting; rending might be slightly OP (as others sometimes have to pay for rending). All in all, chainsword needs to sit between a power sword and a simple close combat knives.

Oh and assault marines need easier access to gunslinger rule. Revise the rules to say: "any model can replace its bolt pistol/chainsword for... bolt pistol"

skchsan wrote:
This just may be one of GW's business scheme to make one of the coolest looking models in the game so useless so that people buy assault marine boxes just to paint them, then get a box of flier just because everyone else has fliers and they pwn your army like no other.

Regarding that note about assault marines being troops - IT WOULD BE AWESOME! But that would take away a lot of uniqueness the BA has to offer (as many people previously stated).

And yes, chainswords (inc. its equivalents) needs some sort of additional property, whether it be AP5, rending, etc. There is no way a chainsaw blade deals same damage as scout's oversized hunting knife. AP5 seems very befitting; rending might be slightly OP (as others sometimes have to pay for rending). All in all, chainsword needs to sit between a power sword and a simple close combat knives.

Oh and assault marines need easier access to gunslinger rule. Revise the rules to say: "any model can replace its bolt pistol/chainsword for... bolt pistol"

It would be good to have them as troops, but then BA would be redundant and just be used for landraider spam

Chain axes are AP 4. Power axes are AP2. Power swords are AP3. I see no reason a chain sword wouldn't be AP5, but thatd cause them to rewrite all the rulebooks, the marine codex's they've put out... too much work for GW

I would love them to be relentless so I can have bolter/plasmagun armed jump pack troops... failing that dual BP's would be nice