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This came up in a game I was playing last week and cannot find a ruling on such.

Here's the scenario:

I have an Ork Warboss with 2 wounds remaining attached to an Ork Boyz unit with 5 models remaining (total 7 wounds). My Warboss is at the front of the unit and all models have the same armor save.

My friend playing Necrons shoots and hits me with 18 hits and 10 wounds (using the boyz toughness since it's the majority value as described in the 6th ed rule book).

Here's the Question(s)
Even though the saves are the same, would I apply the mixed saves rule to Look Out, Sir? Would I need to roll for 10 LOS in this case to see if the Warboss gets allocated a wound prior to attempting to make his armor save?

Under the odd chance that he would make 10 LOS, would I need to make 10 saves or only 5 (one for each ork boy)?

You would have to resolve the LOS (aka mixed saves) since you have a character in the group.

Well you can never look out sir more wound then the character has, so you would only roll 2 at a time. Because should you fail them and he dies then you would not be able to LOS any more. So roll 2 LOS, Resove them, roll 2 more, resolve them, until thre are no legal look out sir targets. Then the boss takes the remaining wounds.

Breng77 wrote:
Well you can never look out sir more wound then the character has, so you would only roll 2 at a time. Because should you fail them and he dies then you would not be able to LOS any more. So roll 2 LOS, Resove them, roll 2 more, resolve them, until thre are no legal look out sir targets. Then the boss takes the remaining wounds.

So, based on my scenario, if I LOS 5 wounds, then my warboss would have to save 5 of them? However, if I choose to NOT do LOS, he would only have to save 2? Is that correct?

If so and I don't do LOS, the excess 3 wounds would then need to be saved by the boyz correct?

In your scenario,

10 wounds coming in. Warboss LOS's 2 of them, kills 2 boys.
8 wounds left. Warboss LOS's 2 of them, kills 2 boys.
6 wounds left. Warboss LOS's 1 of them (only 1 LOS target left), kills 1 boy.
5 wounds left. Warboss rolls 5 armor saves.

That makes sense. Thanks!

If they're all the same save, then it's not a mixed save unit.

roll all the saves.
then roll the LOS 2 at a time.

sirlynchmob wrote:
If they're all the same save, then it's not a mixed save unit.

roll all the saves.
then roll the LOS 2 at a time.

Except if there's a character in the unit.
Or if anyone in the unit has FNP.
FAQs are cool.

Yes essentially you always will need to take 10 saves.

Essentially building off of Rigeld2 assuming you get a save

10 wounds incoming, you LOS 2, 1 boy saves, 1 dies
8 Left LOS 2, 1 Saves one dies
6 Left LOS 2, fail 1 LOS, Warboss fails save, boy saves.
4 left LOS 1, Boy saves
3 Left LOS 1 Boy dies
2 Left LOS 1 Boy saves
1 Left LOS 1 Boy dies.

And you end up with Warboss with 1 wound and 1 boy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
If they're all the same save, then it's not a mixed save unit.

roll all the saves.
then roll the LOS 2 at a time.

Except if there's a character in the unit.
Or if anyone in the unit has FNP.
FAQs are cool.

True, because it changes how you might roll your LOS or saves based on how many saves you fail.

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
If they're all the same save, then it's not a mixed save unit.

roll all the saves.
then roll the LOS 2 at a time.

Except if there's a character in the unit.
Or if anyone in the unit has FNP.
FAQs are cool.

in this situation it makes no difference. Ignore the faq and claim fast rolling on this one, in the end you make your 10 saves and if enough fail they'll all die anyways. odds are you will have 7 failed saves.

If anyone had FNP then that would be a different situation.

Unless you're in a tourny, take the quicker method. Even then ask your opponent if you can roll the quicker way to save time.

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
If they're all the same save, then it's not a mixed save unit.

roll all the saves.
then roll the LOS 2 at a time.

Except if there's a character in the unit.
Or if anyone in the unit has FNP.
FAQs are cool.

in this situation it makes no difference. Ignore the faq and claim fast rolling on this one, in the end you make your 10 saves and if enough fail they'll all die anyways. odds are you will have 7 failed saves.

If anyone had FNP then that would be a different situation.

Unless you're in a tourny, take the quicker method. Even then ask your opponent if you can roll the quicker way to save time.

Just to expand this a bit - how would this situation be different with FNP? (e.g. a Nobz unit with a Painboy instead of Boyz)

Unholyllama wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
If they're all the same save, then it's not a mixed save unit.

roll all the saves.
then roll the LOS 2 at a time.

Except if there's a character in the unit.
Or if anyone in the unit has FNP.
FAQs are cool.

in this situation it makes no difference. Ignore the faq and claim fast rolling on this one, in the end you make your 10 saves and if enough fail they'll all die anyways. odds are you will have 7 failed saves.

If anyone had FNP then that would be a different situation.

Unless you're in a tourny, take the quicker method. Even then ask your opponent if you can roll the quicker way to save time.

Just to expand this a bit - how would this situation be different with FNP? (e.g. a Nobz unit with a Painboy instead of Boyz)

Basically that means more wounds end up "saved" so it could come down to weather a boy lives or the warboss lives depending on how the saves go.

I would still go for fast rolling though, take all saves, take all FNP's, then do LOS rolls. If after the saves & fnp's there are still enough would to remove the unit, why go through the longer more tedious process? if it ends up with 6 unsaved wounds, make the 6 LOS rolls, if 3 fail the warboss and 4 boys die. if all 6 pass, the 5 boys die and the last wound still goes to the warboss. same end result as the mixed save method, quicker way to get there.

otherwise for orks, in a mob of 30 with a nob you would always end up using "mixed saves" and resolving every wound one at a time. In a timed game I don't think I could play orks and go past round 2 keeping with that method. That's where fast dice come in and if the final results really don't make any difference, just roll them all at the same time and at least get a 3rd turn in

You cannot perform fast rolling by doing saves first, because you're then picking which models get their saves made. With the proper method, you can have a situation where the Warboss dies first to some horrifically bad rolling but some of the unit survive because they made their saves after. If you roll the saves and FNP first you wouldn't choose to put the failed saves on the Warboss.

You also need to consider whether any of the incoming shots are weapons with different APs that would affect whether or not some models do/don't get a save, or disallow FNP from having double Strength - and remember your opponent gets to choose what firing applies first.

If you read through the FAQ again you'll find that you can't use LOS! after having already taken a save or an FNP roll where characters are concerned - and the above is why.

What you *CAN* do as an unofficial quick method that still follows the rules, if the unit all has the same save, is declare just before rolling the dice that you will apply them from left to right. So let's say you roll the following results:

6, 3, 2, 2, 1, 5, 2, 5, 4, 1

Going from the left that's four successful LOS! rolls so you roll 4 saves and any FNP for normal Boyz and remove them from nearest the Warboss. Then you stop to resolve the Wound against the Warboss, then carry on LOS!ing. If you run out of Boyz before you run out of 2+'s, only the Warboss is left to make those saves anyway.

In essence, you're still handling the rolls one-by-one, you've just specified beforehand that you're going to handle them in a specific order from how the dice land.

Fast rolling specifically overrides mixed saves so you can take all saves as long as they are the same. As the OP stated they were.

str & ap weren't in the OP but then you'd would go by wound groups, and use 'mixed saves'

unsaved wounds still go to the closest model first so you wouldn't have the choice to skip the warboss as I showed earlier.

I play horde orks and if someone ever suggested my boy mob of 30 should roll by mixed saves because they have a nob, then game would drag on to the point I doubt I'd ever get 3 rounds in, let alone 5-7.

Either method the end result was the same, if it makes a difference then yes, use mixed saves. When it's obviously not going to make any difference choose the faster method. yes I'm ignoring the los faq to still apply it to unsaved wounds, but I got the same result in 3 rolls instead of the few dozen. The time saved makes it worth it, to skip that lil bit when it doesn't matter.

If I were to "fast roll" in this type of situation, I would....

Roll for 10 LOS! Pass 8 of them. Roll armour saves five at a time on the Boyz. Fail three in the first batch. With two boys left and three wounds left, roll two saves, fail two. With one wound left and no boys, this would then be taken on the Boss, who now has a total of three armour saves to pass.
Even though one of those wounds was passed off from the Boss, since all the Boyz died, the Boss must soak up the extra.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
If I were to "fast roll" in this type of situation, I would....

Roll for 10 LOS! Pass 8 of them. Roll armour saves five at a time on the Boyz. Fail three in the first batch. With two boys left and three wounds left, roll two saves, fail two. With one wound left and no boys, this would then be taken on the Boss, who now has a total of three armour saves to pass.
Even though one of those wounds was passed off from the Boss, since all the Boyz died, the Boss must soak up the extra.

The problem is, this kind of fast rolling doesn't allow for the possibility of the Boss dying and the mob surviving. What if those two failed LOS! rolls were the first, and also failed armour saves, but you then made all the remaining saves?
This is why you MUST use mixed saves where a character is involved.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
If I were to "fast roll" in this type of situation, I would....

Roll for 10 LOS! Pass 8 of them. Roll armour saves five at a time on the Boyz. Fail three in the first batch. With two boys left and three wounds left, roll two saves, fail two. With one wound left and no boys, this would then be taken on the Boss, who now has a total of three armour saves to pass.
Even though one of those wounds was passed off from the Boss, since all the Boyz died, the Boss must soak up the extra.

The problem is, this kind of fast rolling doesn't allow for the possibility of the Boss dying and the mob surviving. What if those two failed LOS! rolls were the first, and also failed armour saves, but you then made all the remaining saves?
This is why you MUST use mixed saves where a character is involved.

Not always, if the boss is in front and has the same save as the rest of the unit you can use fast rolling. They did it when 6th first came out before the FaQ.

you would roll 10 saves, tally up the wounds, use LoS! one at a time until the boyz or the boss is dead then apply the remaining wounds to whatever is left. Just like the BRB says (Sans FAQ).

Same result.

Sure, but Elric's method is what he was addressing.

rigeld2 wrote:
Sure, but Elric's method is what he was addressing.

Of course. I was just trying to enlighten.