Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A buddy runs a Deathwing Terminator squad with thunder hammers, storm shields, and a cyclone missile launcher. The cyclone is the only ranged weapon in the squad yet he will shoot at one target with the cyclone and "target" another squad so as to be able to claim a charge on the "targeted" squad. Example, shoots at tank with cyclone and "targets" an infantry squad, charges infantry, mind you there are no other ranged weapons to shoot at infantry. I could not find where the rules address this so what do you think?

As far as I understand you cannot split fire if you are only making 1 shooting attack

You can't split fire unless the unit has the 'Split Fire' rule, like Space Wolf Long Fangs. You have to charge the unit you targeted with ranged weapons or psychic attacks, hope this helped

The rule mentions the other part of the units shooting attacks. So I guess it comes down to, can you declare a shooting attack if you have nothing to shoot?

The answer to that is on pg. 12 "...a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."

The rest of the section just says models, not models with ranged weapons. In conclusion, the terminator squad has a model with a ranged weapon (cyclone launcher) and targets the infantry. The ranged weapon then split fires, passes the test, and can target a tank, the rest of the squad still shoots at the original target, but no rolls are made because there is no weapons. So the guy has to make a LD test before shooting if he plans to assault another target.

Most of the time this will be irrelevant because the FAQ does not allow deathwing sergeants to swap their weapons out, so they will have a storm bolter to shoot the first squad. If the sergeant dies, then this comes back into play.

Couldn't find the Deathwing in the FAQ, link?

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180051a_Dark_Angels_v1.1A_APRIL13.pdf

Page 99 – Deathwing Terminator Squad, Options
Change the second bullet point to:
“• Any model can replace his storm bolter and powerfist with:
- a pair of lightning claws ……………………………….free
- a thunder hammer and storm shield ………….5 pts

ty,
tyvm

 racta wrote:
So I guess it comes down to, can you declare a shooting attack if you have nothing to shoot?

In some cases yes - BA Librarian Dreadnoughts were specifically FAQd to be able to use a Witchfire/PSA instead of shooting even if they've lost their stormbolter.

But in the Split Fire case I'm sure it's a no, both RAW and RAI. Check Range on page 12 says at least one weapon must be in range of the target unit (which they automatically fail if they have no ranged weapon) - if not the it's an invalid target and another one must be selected. Surely this must be true for both parts of the Split Fire as they otherwise follow shooting rules?

I believe you point on the range clears it up nicely. I thank you sir.

From the rulebook, this is allowed.

The steps would be:

1) The unit is selected to shoot.
2) Choose a target, the infantry unit.
3) Check LOS, range etc. The unit must be in range of the cyclone at this point.
4) Which models can fire (BRB Pg. 13). This is where it says everyone must now shoot at this target. At this point you decide to use split fire to change the target of one model.
5) They take the Split Fire LD Test, if passed, the Cyclone fires at the Tank. If not it may still fire at the infantry (but could still elect not to).
6) When the charge is declared, they can charge the unit they declared as their target in the shooting phase, which is the infantry.

Baktru wrote:
From the rulebook, this is allowed.

The steps would be:

1) The unit is selected to shoot.
2) Choose a target, the infantry unit.
3) Check LOS, range etc. The unit must be in range of the cyclone at this point.
4) Which models can fire (BRB Pg. 13). This is where it says everyone must now shoot at this target. At this point you decide to use split fire to change the target of one model.
5) They take the Split Fire LD Test, if passed, the Cyclone fires at the Tank. If not it may still fire at the infantry (but could still elect not to).
6) When the charge is declared, they can charge the unit they declared as their target in the shooting phase, which is the infantry.

This is wrong I'm afraid. Check Split Fire again (page 42), and you'll find you have to take care of the Split Firing model first. This means you would be able to fire the cyclone at another unit no trouble, but then you have nothing left within line-of-sight/range of your main target - and as you've picked up from page 12, this means you must pick another target.

Except that at that point, I'm done with page 12. I've hit page 13, which checks which models can fire. Now only one can fire, which happens to be the Cyclone.

Then I am supposed to resolve the Shooting attacks for the rest, which doesn't tell me to go back to page 12, I can just continue on 13 where I left of, see that no one can actually fire. But nothing at that point on page 13 now invalidates the infantry as a target.

It looks to me like the addition at the end of Skyfire, stipulating a different unit, would be if you declare the Split Fire, then fire at the infantry with the Cyclone, the rest of the unit now needs to pick a new target and they can't because no-one is in range/LOS.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, "resolve the shooting attack" is unclear as the BRB does not define exactly what "resolving" a shooting attack is.

But if we do have to go back to target selection after the Cyclone fired at the tank, the "unit" now cannot select a valid target.

So when assault comes around they can still charge at whoever they want, as they didn't target an enemy unit during shooting at all.

Note that it says you must pick a different target, but the unit now can't pick a target anyway, as their only ranged weapon has already fired.

Either way I still think firing at one thing with the Cyclone and assaulting something else under these circumstances is fine.

Baktru wrote:
But if we do have to go back to target selection after the Cyclone fired at the tank, the "unit" now cannot select a valid target. So when assault comes around they can still charge at whoever they want, as they didn't target an enemy unit during shooting at all.

You do have to go back to page 12 as that's where the rules for picking a target are to begin with... but I can get behind this particular point. Yup, this works indeed, well put.

Baktru wrote:
Note that it says you must pick a different target, but the unit now can't pick a target anyway, as their only ranged weapon has already fired.

The Cyclone fired at at tank... that's a target they shot at. They can charge it if they wish.

Spetulhu wrote:

Baktru wrote:
Note that it says you must pick a different target, but the unit now can't pick a target anyway, as their only ranged weapon has already fired.

The Cyclone fired at at tank... that's a target they shot at. They can charge it if they wish.

Spetulhu, it doesn't matter that the Cyclone fired at the tank. The Cyclone was "extracted" from the unit to shoot at a different target than the unit targeted.

In the end the unit either targeted the infantry (but couldn't shoot at it), or had to pick a new target and couldn't pick anything and hence didn't target anything,
so they can charge whoever.

The wording in who they can assault does not say they can only charge who they shot at, but who the "unit" targeted. The "unit" never targeted the tank.

Plus, this makes sense. Split Fire allows the unit to fire at something extra with the Cyclone (the tank) and charger their original target.
Not having any weapons capable of shooting any more should not break this IMHO.

I'm failing to see how you can target two units when you have only one model that can shoot, aside from Shadowsun. Where is the 2nd unit that you shot at, to allow you to charge it?
If one model split fires it gives you target A, if the rest of the unit fires you get target B. You can charge B normally but only if the rest of the unit fired, otherwise you have only one target and must charge that target.

Liturgies: I don't even need to really target two units. I just need to make sure that the unit of terminators either targeted the infantry OR targeted no-one.

The steps are:

1) The unit targets the infantry. They can do this as the Cyclone is in range and has LOS.
2) Now the cyclone uses split fire to fire at a different target, the tank. At this point the target of the "unit" is still the infantry.
3) Resolve the cyclone firing at the tank.
4) Next I should resolve the shooting attack by the rest of the unit. They still have the "infantry" targeted at this point. In my interpretation this doesn't change because it's a different target to the tank. As it turns out no-one can actually shoot, but this is still the unit that was originally targeted by the Terminator unit.
5) I can declare charges against units I targeted (BRB pG. 20 last line). I did target the infantry. So I can charge and assault them.

Strict rule parsing aside, I'd find it rather absurd (which I know is no argument here, but it explains my HIWPI) that as long as anyone carries a gun, the Cyclone can fire at something else and then charge at the infantry with the unit. But just because the sergeant dropped his pistol for a sec, the cyclone guy loses his ability to concentrate on something else for a second? I just don't feel that is right.

Split Fire means, to me, very clearly, that one model in the squad can shoot at smething other than what the rest shoots at and assaults.

Note also that if the rest did have ranged weapons, you could still:

1) Target the infantry.
2) Use split fire to firer the cyclone at the tank.
3) Opt to shoot with no models at the infantry.
4) Assault the infantry as they were targeted.

To me, it can definitely be read this way in RAW, it looks like it is RAI (as it would be consistent) and is beyond any doubt HIWPI. Even if I would prefer it NOT to work this way (as my army has no Split Fire available to it at all, so more restrictive benefits me..)

BrotherOfBone wrote:
You can't split fire unless the unit has the 'Split Fire' rule, like Space Wolf Long Fangs. You have to charge the unit you targeted with ranged weapons or psychic attacks, hope this helped

Long Fangs have "fire control"(codex SR) not "split fire"(rulebook USR). Different.

Baktru wrote:
Split Fire means, to me, very clearly, that one model in the squad can shoot at smething other than what the rest shoots at and assaults. To me, it can definitely be read this way in RAW, it looks like it is RAI (as it would be consistent) and is beyond any doubt HIWPI. Even if I would prefer it NOT to work this way (as my army has no Split Fire available to it at all, so more restrictive benefits me..)

On the other hand, why would Split Fire even come into use if you have only one model that can shoot? There's no need to split fire, and no other shooting to consider.

Admittedly they could do what you said if even one other model had a ranged weapon, even a grenade in range. And I do have to agree that actually shooting doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for having "targeted" the enemy unit, after all it's up to you which individual models fire.

Spetulhu: It would come into use because I want to fire the Cyclone at the tank, and charge the infantry.

I agree that it would be a rare thing probably, but I cannot see anything in the rules that prohibits those terminators from doing that.

HIWPI alert: If I faced them, they fire the cyclone at one of my MC's and then charge the Doom or something, I'm definitely fine with it.

Baktru wrote:
Liturgies: I don't even need to really target two units. I just need to make sure that the unit of terminators either targeted the infantry OR targeted no-one.

The steps are:

1) The unit targets the infantry. They can do this as the Cyclone is in range and has LOS.
2) Now the cyclone uses split fire to fire at a different target, the tank. At this point the target of the "unit" is still the infantry.
3) Resolve the cyclone firing at the tank.
4) Next I should resolve the shooting attack by the rest of the unit. They still have the "infantry" targeted at this point. In my interpretation this doesn't change because it's a different target to the tank. As it turns out no-one can actually shoot, but this is still the unit that was originally targeted by the Terminator unit.
5) I can declare charges against units I targeted (BRB pG. 20 last line). I did target the infantry. So I can charge and assault them.

Strict rule parsing aside, I'd find it rather absurd (which I know is no argument here, but it explains my HIWPI) that as long as anyone carries a gun, the Cyclone can fire at something else and then charge at the infantry with the unit. But just because the sergeant dropped his pistol for a sec, the cyclone guy loses his ability to concentrate on something else for a second? I just don't feel that is right.

Split Fire means, to me, very clearly, that one model in the squad can shoot at smething other than what the rest shoots at and assaults.

Note also that if the rest did have ranged weapons, you could still:

1) Target the infantry.
2) Use split fire to firer the cyclone at the tank.
3) Opt to shoot with no models at the infantry.
4) Assault the infantry as they were targeted.

To me, it can definitely be read this way in RAW, it looks like it is RAI (as it would be consistent) and is beyond any doubt HIWPI. Even if I would prefer it NOT to work this way (as my army has no Split Fire available to it at all, so more restrictive benefits me..)

The order of operations is wrong as you put it.
Split fire requires the unit to shoot at a different target to the "split fire" model, this dictates that it is resolved before step 2 as per page 12's list of how shooting works.
So the order is:
1) pick a unit.
2) test for split fire
3) resolves split fire.
4) Resolve the unit's shooting by picking a target and continuing the normal shooting order of operations.

If you have no shooting in step 4, who did the unit target? The unit cannot pick a target after the split fire as they have no ranged weapons and fail the criteria to target a unit in range . So they cannot target a unit and the terminators only targets one model in their shooting phase, the tank.

If the unit targeted no one who did the model that fired target?

I'd say it's ambiguous at best then.

I don't see what forces me to pick a target for the Split Firing Cyclone first.

Meh as usual, throw two rules together and GW's rules interaction becomes a well mixed pasta.

Split fire requires the split firing model to resolve a shooting attack before th rest of the unit, which is before you get a chance to pick a target with them. By the time their chance comes around they have no shooting weapons, therefore cannot target

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Split fire requires the split firing model to resolve a shooting attack before th rest of the unit, which is before you get a chance to pick a target with them. By the time their chance comes around they have no shooting weapons, therefore cannot target

Which depends on whether "resolving" a shooting attack includes picking a target. I don't think it does. Of course, "resolving a shooting attack" is not properly defined anyway.

It's very well defined. Start on page 12 with the "Shooting Sequence".
Step 1 "nominate unit to shoot" defines that to pick the unit making the shooting attack.
Step 2 is picking the target.

Baktru wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Split fire requires the split firing model to resolve a shooting attack before th rest of the unit, which is before you get a chance to pick a target with them. By the time their chance comes around they have no shooting weapons, therefore cannot target

Which depends on whether "resolving" a shooting attack includes picking a target. I don't think it does. Of course, "resolving a shooting attack" is not properly defined anyway.

Of course it is, given the shooting attack sequence starts at step 1, and step 2 you pick a target.

I think there is a bit of a false premis here... Not sure why Split Fire is even being discussed. You have to be able to split your fire in order for it to be used.

Only 1 model has a ranged weapon. How do you use split fire AT ALL in this case? It is an un-usable rule in this instance. You clearly can't split the cyclones fire among 2 units (ala Shadowsun), so Split Fire never even gets a chance to come into play in this scenario... The unit may not charge the infantry if the cyclone shot at the tank... Split Fire never even comes into play, whether the unit has it or not.

Baktru wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Split fire requires the split firing model to resolve a shooting attack before th rest of the unit, which is before you get a chance to pick a target with them. By the time their chance comes around they have no shooting weapons, therefore cannot target

Which depends on whether "resolving" a shooting attack includes picking a target. I don't think it does. Of course, "resolving a shooting attack" is not properly defined anyway.

Lol, apart from those pages that define it clearly.