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Huron blackheart points160
Terminators 5man squad. 2 set of lightning claws, combi flamer, power maul, combiplasma, chainfist, heavy flamer power sword, mark of nurgle points 233

Chaos bikers 6 bikers. 1 plasma gun, 1 flamer, chain axe, plasma pistol, melta bombs, icon of vengeance, Mark of khorne, veterans of the long war, points 221

Obliterators 3 man squad, mark of nurgle. Veteran of the long war, Points237

Raptors squad 10, 2 melta guns, 1 lightning claw, 1 plasma pistol. Veteran of the long war mark of khorne, melta bombPoints 285

Space marines 2 plasmagun, combi-melta, power axe, veteran of the long war mark of nurgle, icon of vengeance, melta bombs , Squad 12 Points 265.

Space marines 2 flamers,veteran of the long war mark of nurgle, icon of vengeance, gift of mutation, Squad 10 Points 230.

1maulerfiend Points 125


1 rhino dozer blades points 40

Ok sorry if this is in 'long hand' but I'm still not completely familiar with some of the acronyms. I'm trying a different style of army with the idea that most of it can either move quickly or deepstrike, with the 12 man squad forming a gun line in the centre. If my math is right its 1847. So whats wrong with it? What are my inexperinced eyes not seeing?

A few little things- Id cut the icon of vengeance off the vanilla csm- most agree its a waste of points. The votlw is great tho. Id loose the dozer blades from the rhino as well- keep it cheap.

Where is huron goin? footslogging wth the 12 man blob? f so they def dont need iov and if hes in the rhino then they need to make room for him. If footslogging with termies then that could work is some situats.

I dont like the plasma pistol on your raptor champ but i cant really say why so its prolyl fine. I guess i dont like the idea of making a 60ish point model (lt claw, raptor, plasp votlw, mok) that has 1w t4 3+ and can be challenged out easily.

With your bikes id make bot special weps plasma guns so you can take advantage of the relentless rapid fire. Id prolly ditch the MoK for a MoN or even MoS with ioe (alot to be said for i5 t5 fnp).

Hope that helps

Thanks, this is the kind of stuff I need to know. My idea was to keep Huron with the large 12 man squad in the centre of my deployment as a 'gunline', then use everything else on either side to funnel the enemy into the centre. Then deep strike the termies and oblits. Its interesting because I would have thought that the icon of vengeance would have been useful, giving them fearless. Are any of the icons worth the investment?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should I pare the marines down to the bare minimum. Ie marks and a few plasma guns but no icons, melta bombs etc or stuff for the aspiring champ since he is likely to die in challenges.

Well huron makes his squad fearless so that ones a bit of a no brainer

As for the general sm squad and fearless- your gonna pass most tests with ld 10 (9+votlw) from shooting. In the combats you lose well.. you arent exactly gonna be surprised in cc in wh40k. Youll know whats gonna happen 90% of the time before you get to the combat and you can manage it with your positioning. Yes you will get swept every now and then but its not their role to be cc specialists. if your using them in cc its to tie something up or to deal with something smaller than they are.

The icons are pretty situational and get pricey with marines. Keep em vanilla unless you want to gear them towards a specific role.

The khorne one is great if your decking them out for cc and is prolly the only one i consider taking (but then im about the skulls).

The slannesh FnP is pretty sick and theres a few threads about mos+fnp vs mon for bikes. Im of the thinking that if your taking 5+ bikes and have the points mos(i5) + fnp > mon and 5 or below id go mon. (plenty disagree with me ). On normal marines the fnp is really expensive and your better just getting more wounds with weps than lest weps with more resiliency. On a blob footslogging squad of 20 with huron fnp and i5 could be GREAT but very expensive.

The tz one looks pretty good against low toughness but the mark is so expensive and i think the 6++ is a bit meh so i dont c it as viable.

Also imo gift of mutation: as fun as it is isnt worth it. If your playing friendlies it can be heaps of fun but otherwise...

I wouldnt cut the troops down to below 10 as at 1850 theyll evaporate to shooting any smaller.

Look to be honest this list isnt one of the most competitive: you dont have enough troops at 1850 4ish is pretty standard, you cant really deal with flyers and raptors and termies are just generally worse point for point compared for bikes in 6e. That said, it looks like a fun list id love to play.

If you are goin to be super competitive cut the termies for another troop choice and a adl and quad gun or a helckicken. (i think this would be sad)

Good luck

Thanks I guess half my problem is that I'm not sure what is competitive and tend to go with what looks cool or what I have in my bits box . After 24 years its a fairly large bits box lol. Again thanks for the info.

Huron-160 (attach to 20 CSM blob below)

Infiltrate this squad!
CSM+15, 2 Plasmaguns, MoS, IoE-370

2nd Priority Infiltrate since you would not need to ds them. If you cant infiltrate 2 units then just go ahead and DS this unit.
Termi+7, MoS, IoE, 1 Heavy Flamer-402

3rd Priority to infiltrate/out flank if you are so lucky
CSM+5, 2 Meltagun, trade bolter for ccw, rhino, combi melta-205

Raptors, 2 Meltaguns-115
(I do not like bikes since they are still too costly to deliver a spec weapon)

Bikes, MoS, IoE= Plague marines on wheels if you choose to do it

Can always just fill fast attack slot with Heldrakes

Heavy:

Oblits+2, MoN-228 (could choose this as your 3rd infiltrate option so you dont have to ds)

Thanks... never thought of mos

Bikes vs raptors is a tough one at first glance.

Bikes get the extra toughness, are relentless (plasmagun winning) and equal to raptors in cc. Add onto that that they have the changes in 6e of jink and turbo boost. Thats for 2 extra points per model.

Raptors on the other hand can deepstrike. In my op the randomness of deepstrike is a huge issue for raptors as they are usually given very specific roles- tank hunters with meltas or cc specialists. In either case theyre very vulnerable to a bad scatter and cant get into assault.

For me its a no brainer it looks like bikes are priced for 5e rules not 6e. Bikes more survivable, more reliable, arguably more mobile , more dangerous in shooting... Sad cos i love night lords.

Bikes vs raptors is still a tough call.

Raptors cause fear. (Even a monsterous creature could have a hard time rolling 5s to hit). They re-roll their charge range. Their units tend to be larger so they get more HoW hits. They can walk into terrain without the dangerous rolls (I think), and they can climb floors in building/ruins.

The deep strike is random but if you are deploying first on a large board you may find the bikes are well out of the action if your opponent goes into a castle in the corner formation.

Raptors are easier to put together and pose differently (unless you like different angles of wheelies). Cheaper to purchase. Easier to take to bits and re-build if you get a awfully maded set from ebay.

You forgot about the bikes taking TL bolters - take that you rear armour or flyers sort of thing, or uber good at thinning out hordes at range.

Having no heldrakes is a grave mistake. The heldrake is arguably the best model in the entire game. You're only hurting yourself by not bringing them.

I've tried heldrakes a few times. I even got two of them as I love the model but each time I've played them they have either sat in reserves until the last turn or come on killed a few and then died in a hail of bullets . They thus seemed to be a lot of points on a glass hammer.

kevhplus9 wrote:
I've tried heldrakes a few times. I even got two of them as I love the model but each time I've played them they have either sat in reserves until the last turn or come on killed a few and then died in a hail of bullets . They thus seemed to be a lot of points on a glass hammer.

Play with them enough and you will see they are no glass hammer. Very durable and have the opportunity to gain HP back.

The one thing I see lacking in these builds is Troops. Only two scoring units is really going to make it tough to win games. Also consider giving the MoS CSM that Infiltrate with Huron CCW--take full advantage of the higher Initiative and possibility of charging turn 2.

At least for me it is a no brainer between Raptors and Bikers--MoN bikers. They are super tough and can fit many roles depending on how you want to kit them out.

kevhplus9 wrote:
I've tried heldrakes a few times. I even got two of them as I love the model but each time I've played them they have either sat in reserves until the last turn or come on killed a few and then died in a hail of bullets . They thus seemed to be a lot of points on a glass hammer.

They are no glass hammer sir. Find another flyer with 12/12/10... Also they have a daemon save so they don't need to jink. They're a beautiful thing and there's nothing in our codex that will make their points back like they will. Field two or three of them and cultists. Then run some other big guns given your troops are costing you virtually nothing. Do this and you'll relish in chaos goodness.

Run Heldrakes, cultists, oblits and preds. Then run cult troops to fill out your points. I personally like Plague Marines and Berzerkers.

Lose the Power Axes, sure they're good, but I'd personally much rather have a Power Sword striking at the same time as everyone else, than possibly be obliterated in combat and end up wasting the points it took to buy the power weapon. I also agree with all of the above, the Heldrakes are great, especially considering its Baleflamer is turreted (can fire in a 360 degree angle) and has torrent, which is AMAZING!! And, obviously the times you used the Heldrakes you just rolled bad for reserves Ally them with Duke Sliscus (or whatever DE character improves reserve rolls, I FORGET WHICH ONE!! ASDFGHJKL!!)

Thanks guys. I obviously need to rethink everything