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Hey guys, just recently got into 6th edition as I've my head stuck in 5th for a while, and I've got a question.

Looking at instant death in the rulebook, it says that "If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double it's Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty".

Would this mean, then, that for example, A Defiler's battle cannon would not cause instant death against a group of Space Marine terminators, as although the strength of the cannon is double the toughness of the terminators it only AP 3 instead of AP 2. So instant death would have affect on the terminators?

There was much head-scratching between me and my opponent and neither of us were sure. Would instant death then only really effect multiple-wound models, as the rulebook stats an "unsaved wound"?

Any input much appreciated.

The only thing that regular Instant Death is concerned about is the T of the model Vs. the S of the weapon.

If the S of the weapon is double or more the T of the hit model, it will suffer instant death if it fails the save.

Iranna.

Alright, so Terminators still get a save.

Say it was a Grey Knight Paladin, and it failed it's save, it would be removed even though it has two wounds?

 Mr. Suduku wrote:
Say it was a Grey Knight Paladin, and it failed it's save, it would be removed even though it has two wounds?

That's exactly what Instant Death does - if you're wounded and fail your saves (if allowed saves) and the wound causes ID you lose all remaining wounds.

edir: yes, it's mostly a concern for multi-wound models. But you'll also be denied Feel No Pain rolls for ID so certain units like Plague Marines, BA Death Company and so on will also be upset.

Correct. Instant Death doesn't interact with saves at all. It just means if you take an unsaved wound you will die regardless of wounds remaining.

A Space Marine Captain wearing Artificer Armor(2+ save) that gets hit by a Krak missile gets his 2+ armor but if he fails it he dies.

 Mr. Suduku wrote:
Alright, so Terminators still get a save.

Say it was a Grey Knight Paladin, and it failed it's save, it would be removed even though it has two wounds?

Yes to both.
Instant death really only has any effect on models with more than one wound.

A'right then, got it!

Thanks all.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Mr. Suduku wrote:
Alright, so Terminators still get a save.

Say it was a Grey Knight Paladin, and it failed it's save, it would be removed even though it has two wounds?

Yes to both.
Instant death really only has any effect on models with more than one wound.

Or with Feel No Pain.

And for what it's worth, this isn't new for sixth edition. Instant Death has always worked that way.

It is also worth noting that some units have special rules that allow thier attacks to cause Instant Death regardless of the strength of the attack or toughness of the wounded model. A couple examples are Force Weapons and the Venom Sting from a Nurgle Plague Drone.

If the Terminators were to fail the armour save, they would die.. It goes through the armour and carries so much weight that they simply can't resist the power and die


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:
It is also worth noting that some units have special rules that allow thier attacks to cause Instant Death regardless of the strength of the attack or toughness of the wounded model. A couple examples are Force Weapons and the Venom Sting from a Nurgle Plague Drone.

And a helluva lot of Dark Eldar stuff !!

Thing of it like this.

The armor can resist the shot, but the guy inside can't. if the armor does fail, the guy inside is toast.

A weapons capability of going through armor is independent of its ability to hurt the guy inside.

 insaniak wrote:
And for what it's worth, this isn't new for sixth edition. Instant Death has always worked that way.

Yup. You still have to roll to wound, the model still gets its save (if applicable), and this rule has been largely unchanged for four editions now.

This was useful, i was used to 3rd where id gave no save!

In 3rd it didn't prevent saves either.

Ah well wrong on all counts then. I havent played in years, only getting back into it. Am i thinking of monstrous creatures in 3rd?

Maybe. The first time I touched WH40K was in 4th.

Of course MC's in melee are AP2 so pretty much give no saves anyway.

pax_imperialis wrote:
Ah well wrong on all counts then. I havent played in years, only getting back into it. Am i thinking of monstrous creatures in 3rd?

To be fair, it's entirely possible that you were playing ID as ignoring armour in 3rd... People have been getting that wrong in every edition that has had ID

 insaniak wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Ah well wrong on all counts then. I havent played in years, only getting back into it. Am i thinking of monstrous creatures in 3rd?

To be fair, it's entirely possible that you were playing ID as ignoring armour in 3rd... People have been getting that wrong in every edition that has had ID

Lol phew. If i remember the description it was "space marine captain gets hit with krak missile so dies instantly", dont think we questioned it further than that. I remember because of that i basically wouldnt take any heavy weapons that werent strength 8 or above. Also, 3rd didnt have ap values in melee. Was just armour save or not if it was a power weapon, or limited to 4+ for chainaxes choppas ( which i remember thinking was really stupid, how is a crappy ork axe the same as a khornate chainaxe? ). Again, feel free to crap all over my alcohol ruined recollection of 3rd

Yeah, you weren't alone in disliking the Choppa rule

I liked it...

AP in melee is a new thing in 6th. Monstrous Creatures just used to always ignore armor saves.

That Choppa rule was pretty nasty; it was certainly a contributing factor to the rarity of terminators on the table through most of 3rd and 4th editions.

 Mannahnin wrote:
AP in melee is a new thing in 6th. Monstrous Creatures just used to always ignore armor saves.

I always envisioned it going something along the lines of: "hah, my armour will protect me" *Carnifex steps on Marine, failing to penetrate his armour but succeeding in crushing him to death with it*

 insaniak wrote:
To be fair, it's entirely possible that you were playing ID as ignoring armour in 3rd... People have been getting that wrong in every edition that has had ID

Seconded. In all ID questions I've seen there have been a few where people thought you didn't get saves, or sometimes that the hit didn't even need to roll to wound. And it's perfectly reasonable (though wrong) to come to that conclusion if the rules is called something as awesome as Instant Death. It's not instant if you have to go through the standard hittting, wounding and saving is it?

Yup. Although in Apocalypse they have Strength: D weapons, which do much what people sometimes assume Instant Death do to. Automatically wound with no saves except Invulnerable, and inflict Instant Death unless the model wounded is an Eternal Warrior. My Mephiston had a sad encounter with one of those in the Adepticon Gladiator two years ago.

IIRC StrD doesn't ignore armor saves in and of itself. Only cover saves.

That said, most StrD weapons are AP2.

 Mannahnin wrote:
That Choppa rule was pretty nasty; it was certainly a contributing factor to the rarity of terminators on the table through most of 3rd and 4th editions.

Particularly before they got their invulnerable save... Terminators at the start of 3rd edition were really, really lame

With 15pt lascannons and 6pt plasmaguns available in 5 man SM squads, which could each also take a fairly inexpensive las/plas Razorback, particularly. In 3rd models also blocked LOS (but only to the ENEMY, except in HtH) up to twice their height, so you could line up your 5 man las/plas squad in front of and hiding their las/plas razorback.

Terminators did not live long in those days.

pax_imperialis wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Ah well wrong on all counts then. I havent played in years, only getting back into it. Am i thinking of monstrous creatures in 3rd?

To be fair, it's entirely possible that you were playing ID as ignoring armour in 3rd... People have been getting that wrong in every edition that has had ID

Lol phew. If i remember the description it was "space marine captain gets hit with krak missile so dies instantly", dont think we questioned it further than that. I remember because of that i basically wouldnt take any heavy weapons that werent strength 8 or above. Also, 3rd didnt have ap values in melee. Was just armour save or not if it was a power weapon, or limited to 4+ for chainaxes choppas ( which i remember thinking was really stupid, how is a crappy ork axe the same as a khornate chainaxe? ). Again, feel free to crap all over my alcohol ruined recollection of 3rd

"He's just not that tough!"

Take that, marine