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I am TOing this weekend and I know several folks are bringing the Masque, and several folks are bringing Tau. I was curious how folks think a couple of rules interact.

The Masque can do a dance that reduces a units BS by -5, and they cant overwatch. Ok seems simple enough. Tau have Maarker lights that can improve balistic skill. Now how do these rules interact since they are done at differant phases? Heres how I see it being played out.

Scenerio 1. Masque makes Riptide dance, and he is -5 BS. Riptide cant go to -2 so he is reduced to BS 1. In Tau shooting phase, pathfinders mark a unit. Tau riptide is BS1 (since thats the lowest you can go) and he says, Ill take 2 marker lights and BAM! Im back to BS3.

OR

Scenerio 2. Masque makes Riptide dance. Pathfinders mark up a unit. Riptide goes to shoot....but he has this red glowing -5 to his BS above his head. This would mean he would need 5 marker lights to get to BS3.

Which of these would be the correct way to rule it. I am inclined to rule the first scenerio, but Im not sold on it either.

Am I missing a rule that clears this up?

Have folks run into this, and how have you resolved it?

You apply both modifiers so a BS3 model affected by the dance and using 2 Markerlights to bump up BS would be at BS (3-5+2) capped at 1.

I am pretty sure that the first scenario is the way it should be played. I am not familiar with the Masque but from I gather he does his special ability in one of his phase. And seeing how BS1 is the lowest you can go that is what the Riptide would be. Then the BS can be boosted with marker lights in the Tau Shooting Phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
You apply both modifiers so a BS3 model affected by the dance and using 2 Markerlights to bump up BS would be at BS (3-5+2) capped at 1.

Yeah, you apply both modifiers but they are not applied at the same time. You reduce the ballistic skill, to a minimum of 1, then you apply the Marker light modifiers.

Actually BS can go to 0, only Initiative is capped to go down to 1 minimum... and having a BS of 0 means you can't shoot at all . I do think though that spending 3 markerlight tokens would get you back to normal BS. So almost scenario 1.

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
Actually BS can go to 0, only Initiative is capped to go down to 1 minimum... and having a BS of 0 means you can't shoot at all . I do think though that spending 3 markerlight tokens would get you back to normal BS. So almost scenario 1.

Has been FAQ'd, no characteristic can be brought down to 0, probably because of the Nurgle Chaos sorcerers going around reducing people to 0

Honestly if this comes up play the lottery. The mask will be dead before she is in range to use her stuff... IMHO .

Her range is 12" , and she is unique so she goes at it solo.

More serious note the minus 5 comes in her shooting phase first, so minus 5 to a minimum of 1. Any marker light hits and usage would increase his bs to what ever the amount he uses added to bs of 1. Remember though its a mute point since the unit she targeted cannot fire over watch. If they chose to shoot in their turn then follow what was used in my previous example.

 RutgerMan wrote:
Has been FAQ'd, no characteristic can be brought down to 0

Not true. Initiative is capped at 1. Everything else is capped at 0. Most abilities however specify that the ability cannot drop a characteristic to below 1.

 Happyjew wrote:

 RutgerMan wrote:
Has been FAQ'd, no characteristic can be brought down to 0

Not true. Initiative is capped at 1. Everything else is capped at 0. Most abilities however specify that the ability cannot drop a characteristic to below 1.

point stated, I must have read it too quick in the past now I know this! thx!

Lungpickle wrote:
Honestly if this comes up play the lottery. The mask will be dead before she is in range to use her stuff... IMHO .

Her range is 12" , and she is unique so she goes at it solo.

More serious note the minus 5 comes in her shooting phase first, so minus 5 to a minimum of 1. Any marker light hits and usage would increase his bs to what ever the amount he uses added to bs of 1. Remember though its a mute point since the unit she targeted cannot fire over watch. If they chose to shoot in their turn then follow what was used in my previous example.

A common use for her is deepstriking onto a banner from a unit of seekers, in fact I've never heard of anyone running her up the field instead of bringing her in from reserves.

Thanks for the input folks.

A unit affected by the masque is always suffering the -5 BS while the rule is in effect. Just because you hit a cap does not mean the modifier goes away.

 Tarrasq wrote:
A unit affected by the masque is always suffering the -5 BS while the rule is in effect. Just because you hit a cap does not mean the modifier goes away.

That's how I read it, too. Just because you have a minimum value doesn't mean the amount of the modifier changed - it's a -5 modifier. We have rules on how to adjudicate multiple modifiers; both markerlights & the Dance are of the additive variety, so they're applied at the same time (after multipliers, before set values). 3 -5 + 3 = 1.

If the unit is at BS 0 can they fire a markerlight at all? If so the unit cannot even use it's own markerlights just those from other units.

Do you have to declare your shot first then expend the markerlights? If that's the case they can't shoot at all so they can't declare a shot to use the markerlights.

I'm going off the old wording so the new markerlights may be different.

No, BS0 means they cannot make a shooting attack at all.

Concur. It's a "standing" penalty. Other additions are applied simultaneously.

 Happyjew wrote:
You apply both modifiers so a BS3 model affected by the dance and using 2 Markerlights to bump up BS would be at BS (3-5+2) capped at 1.

I vote this, because masques dance will affect the model when it tries to shoot, the model is reduced with -5 so he will have BS1, if he use one marker light he will be BS1 if he uses 2 he will be BS1 but if he uses 3 he will be BS2

but it would be a hughe waste to use lights when hes dancing

So, if a normally BS 3 model has been affected by the Masque's power, could you apply five Markerlight tokens to return him to normal BS?

I would say so, yes. Apply the -5 and the +5 at the same time.

Do you not have to initiate a shooting attack to use a markerlight?
Because if its BS0 the model cannot make a shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:
Do you not have to initiate a shooting attack to use a markerlight?
Because if its BS0 the model cannot make a shooting attack.

In this case it does not matter, as the Dance is capped at BS1.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Concur. It's a "standing" penalty. Other additions are applied simultaneously.

Unless its a single application effect like a bike, mark of Nurgle, Sanguinors Blessing or the Death Mask of Sanguinius. Or an application of effect from a different phase that alters the statistic for a set duration like Paroxysm, except that power reads more like a set modifier.

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Do you not have to initiate a shooting attack to use a markerlight?
Because if its BS0 the model cannot make a shooting attack.

In this case it does not matter, as the Dance is capped at BS1.

Does Dance state that it reduces the BS by -5 to a minimum of BS1? Also when is it applied? If it does not state to minimum of BS1 then it would be BS0, if its applied at any other time to when the Markerlight takes effect you would take it at the BS it is reduced to, ie BS0 or BS1. If however the Dance is used and applied in at the same phase/time then the full -5 would have to be taken into account as it is a multiple modifier rather than modifying the new base statistic.

"f however the Dance is used and applied in at the same phase/time then the full -5 would have to be taken into account as it is a multiple modifier rather than modifying the new base statistic."

Citation needed that yo only treat it as a multiple modifier if effects are placed in the same phase.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"f however the Dance is used and applied in at the same phase/time then the full -5 would have to be taken into account as it is a multiple modifier rather than modifying the new base statistic."

Citation needed that yo only treat it as a multiple modifier if effects are placed in the same phase.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I intended that to be as the same time in the same phase, not at different times in the same phase. Like if Dance occurs when an over watch is done, or in another case in the same Init step in combat.

Dance doesn't affect Overwatch. Overwatch is snapfire, snapfire is a set BS of 1 regardless of Dance.

Yonush wrote:
Dance doesn't affect Overwatch. Overwatch is snapfire, snapfire is a set BS of 1 regardless of Dance.

Unless we're talking about Tau, with Marker Lights.

Which we are.

It still wouldn't affect the Overwatch.

Markerlights Specificly state they can modify Snap Shot BS to increase it.

The Dance is in effect, the Riptide is at -5BS.
Snapfire Counts As BS1 regardless of Modifiers.
Markerlights adjust the Counts As BS of Snapfire.

All rules have been acounted for.

 Tarrasq wrote:
A unit affected by the masque is always suffering the -5 BS while the rule is in effect. Just because you hit a cap does not mean the modifier goes away.

I agree with this.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
A unit affected by the masque is always suffering the -5 BS while the rule is in effect. Just because you hit a cap does not mean the modifier goes away.

I agree with this.

I agree as well.

Masque is making you get -5 to your BS. FAQ says you can't reduce below 1, but nothing says the negative modifer itself is reduced. You'd have to pop off 5 Markerlights to use your normal BS.

It would amuse me to do this to farsight bomb

The Daemon codex is clear on this. -5 to a minimum of 1. It is clear when this is applied. MLs will work up from bs1. 2 MLs make you Bs3.