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Another thread about top models for challenges got me thinking. Who does everything think is the best close combat HQ units?

List your top ten close combat HQs.

For me, they are in this order;

1. Abaddon the Despoiler
2. Bloodthirster
3. Darnath Lysander
4. Ghazgul Thraka(mostly because for 2 turns he has a 2+ invuln)
5. The Swarmlord
6. Kharn the Betrayer
7. Necron Overlord(with everything, MSS, Warscythe, Semp Weave, Phase Shifter etc.)
8. The Sanguinor (with Power Axe Glaive Encarmine)
9. Kaldor Draigo (low on the list because his sword is only AP 3)
10. Lelith Hesperax

Honorable Mentions;

Mephiston - Good, but no invuln and his sword is only AP 3.
Vargard Obyron - Once again no invuln. Hits hard, but very slow.

Could give a honorable mention to Farsight too... for being the only Tau that have a decent melee capability

( 4x Str 5 AP 2 armour bane I5 Attacks at WS5, 3+/4++ Ld10 W4, Tho only T4 )

OP and myself share the same opinion

Solid list, but I'd replace the overlord with a destroyer lord. Preferred enemy is pretty sweet in CC.

Destroyer Lord cant take an Invuln, so the Stock OL is more reliable

1. Pretty much any Necron HQ with Mindshackle Scarabs
2. Skarbrand
3. Swarmlord
4. Bloodthirster
5. Abaddon
6. Ghazgul
7. Draigo
8. Lysander
9. Lol, I stopped caring.

Swarmlord should be a the top of the list. 80% to get Iron Arm, with 4 bio rolls. With Iron Army he hands any other HQ their ass.

Excellent point... Hmmm... I still kinda lean to the D lord....

 Sasori wrote:
Swarmlord should be a the top of the list. 80% to get Iron Arm, with 4 bio rolls. With Iron Army he hands any other HQ their ass.

Indeed, he's the only guy besides a Mindshackle Scarab lord who can steal Abaddon's lunch money and throw his shoes around a power line.

 Sasori wrote:
Swarmlord should be a the top of the list. 80% to get Iron Arm, with 4 bio rolls. With Iron Army he hands any other HQ their ass.

I had actually completely forgetten about that. I wont change my list, but that is food for thought.

Maybe i'm being a bit one-eyed here...but no Prince Yriel mention?

Belly wrote:
Maybe i'm being a bit one-eyed here...but no Prince Yriel mention?

Probably because he's not up there with the bigger beatsticks?

 Sasori wrote:
Swarmlord should be a the top of the list. 80% to get Iron Arm, with 4 bio rolls. With Iron Army he hands any other HQ their ass.

Believe me, I'm all for the Swarmlord, but when it comes to cost vs damage output he's edged out by Skarbrand with his ridiculous profile and wargear, and Mindshackle cheese will still destroy any character or single model unit over half the time for 15 points.

Without sounding fanboyish, but I think Calgar deserves a mention at least. Re-rolling hits and wounds, 2+/4++ save, 6 strength 8 attacks on the charge, WS 6, re-roll hits and wounds. Sure he's hitting at I1, but with 4 wounds and EW, he's survivable.
And let's not forget, like most people do, that he can swap his 5 PF attacks for 4 power sword attacks if you don't need to pack a huge punch, or you just need to get a quick few attacks in.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Swarmlord should be a the top of the list. 80% to get Iron Arm, with 4 bio rolls. With Iron Army he hands any other HQ their ass.

Believe me, I'm all for the Swarmlord, but when it comes to cost vs damage output he's edged out by Skarbrand with his ridiculous profile and wargear, and Mindshackle cheese will still destroy any character or single model unit over half the time for 15 points.

Are we talking about Cost-Vs Damage output, or the best HQ in close combat? Because the Swarmlord still punks Skarbrand in CC, if he's got Iron Arm.

Not to mention Skarbrand gives your opponents rage and hatred.

And he is very likely to get Iron Arm. Over 80% chance IIRC.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Without sounding fanboyish, but I think Calgar deserves a mention at least. Re-rolling hits and wounds, 2+/4++ save, 6 strength 8 attacks on the charge, WS 6, re-roll hits and wounds. Sure he's hitting at I1, but with 4 wounds and EW, he's survivable.
And let's not forget, like most people do, that he can swap his 5 PF attacks for 4 power sword attacks if you don't need to pack a huge punch, or you just need to get a quick few attacks in.

And yet, for all that, he's beaten out by the other characters on the list. It's not that Calgars bad in assault, he's just not up there with the really good beatsticks.

Calgars benefit is he's a support character who also happens to be an okay beatstick. Even then, he comes in second to the Swarmlord in both army support and beatstick potential.

I think that first list is pretty decent, with the top 5 all being VERY close. I run Swarmy as my HQ most of the time and he is just a beast, particularly with a lash whip equipped Tyrand Guard brood. I look at this thread more as an overall rating vs just 1 vs 1 combat or challenges. While the chances are very good for Swarmy to get IA + something like Warp Speed or Endurance, there is still a possibility he'll either fail to get it or fail his leadership check, and if he does, most of the choices higher on the list have pretty good odds of beating him. The other thing is getting him to the fight. Most of the other choices have some way to get them across the board faster than footslogging it, while Swarmy's biggest problem is he doesn't.

As for the Overlord, in a challenge, he has at least about a 50% chance of punking the opponent, but if they pass that Ld test, he's toast against most of these guys without EW. Less of an issue but still a concern, any decent CC unit that uses mass attacks without relying on some big baddie that can get challenged out will put him down pretty easy.

All lists fail for not having St Celestine.

Bring your 400pt brick. I'll usually get a few chops in, die, and then come back.

You didn't kill me. Therefore you did not win.

 TheKbob wrote:
All lists fail for not having St Celestine.

Bring your 400pt brick. I'll usually get a few chops in, die, and then come back.

You didn't kill me. Therefore you did not win.

Celestine is a great HQ, not a great CC HQ. I'd put it as:

Swarmlord
Skarbrand
DLord with MSS, 2++. Scythe and ResOrb
'Thirster
Draigo
Abbadon
Lysander
Kharn
Mephiston
Khornelord with Blind Axe on a Jugger

 TheKbob wrote:
All lists fail for not having St Celestine.

Bring your 400pt brick. I'll usually get a few chops in, die, and then come back.

You didn't kill me. Therefore you did not win.

That doesn't make her good at close combat, it just makes her durable. There's a very big difference. Celestine doesn't do enough damage to be concerned about, while the big beatsticks definitely do.

She's good, but just an entirely different type of character.

If you never die from CC (or anything else) you're a boss.

Plus I7 and AP3 (and always wounding on a 4+) means she can take out some of those big nasties.

If you look them in a vacuum, then it's a bit silly. Too many variables. Most of the "beat sticks" are overcosted and can easily get shot off the board.

St Celestine is still a beat stick, extremely useful and never dies (technically). I say she wins. More so at 115 pts. Most of these "beat stick" guys die handily to a Lone Wolf (TDA/CF/SS) or two. Most of them are slow enough to position a Lone Wolf to engage. I dunno, seems kinda silly as I rarely see any of those listed outside of Kharn because he's cheap or a Dlord w/ Wraith Wing.

You forgot her auto d3 overwatch hits.

 TheKbob wrote:
If you never die from CC (or anything else) you're a boss.

You're mistaking not dying for not being removed from the table. Celestine can die, very easily. She gets back up, and dies again very easily.

 TheKbob wrote:
Plus I7 and AP3 (and always wounding on a 4+) means she can take out some of those big nasties.

They all have toomany wounds to be dealt with by her, 2+ saves, invulnerable saves, higher initiative to strike first, and on a few cases, all of the above.

Celestine needs to be very lucky to kill one of the top beatstick characters, or even wound them before being beaten down time after time.

Not to mention, she's just durable enough while not being killy enough to be very prone to tarpitting.

 TheKbob wrote:
If you look them in a vacuum, then it's a bit silly. Too many variables. Most of the "beat sticks" are overcosted and can easily get shot off the board.

Just like Celestine. it's not hard to render he completel ineffective with little effort while still dealing with her resurrecting.

The expensive beat sticks are expensive for a reason. Look at the Swarmlord. It's 280pts of beatstick. It's also got an 18" synapse bubble, provides Shadow in the Warp, comes with four psychic powers and two warp charge tokens (which can include Endurance, which is amazingly effective for Tyranids), makes reserves more reliable and can hand out Preferred Enemy or Furious Charge to units within 12" (or 18", I always forget).

On top of those quite amazing army buffing abilities, it's one of the best beatsticks in the game.

It's 280pts for a reason, and worth all of it.

 TheKbob wrote:
St Celestine is still a beat stick, extremely useful and never dies (technically). I say she wins. More so at 115 pts. Most of these "beat stick" guys die handily to a Lone Wolf (TDA/CF/SS) or two. Most of them are slow enough to position a Lone Wolf to engage. I dunno, seems kinda silly as I rarely see any of those listed outside of Kharn because he's cheap or a Dlord w/ Wraith Wing.

Again, she's not a beatstick, she's just durable. The best term for her would be a sponge. She can put out some good attacks, but not enough to compete with the big boys. Her best asset is basically Victory Point denial - since you can't kill her, you can never claim Warlord points from her.

Logan Grimnar deserves an honorable mention in this thread as well. Preferred enemy with 7 attacks first round if he charges or gets charged. Hit's on 3+ with str 8. He isn't the absolute strongest of them all but he deserves to be up there.
If my math is correct he basically hits 6 out of 7 with preffered enemy and then wounds them all since he rerolls the 1.
6 wounds ap 2 is not that bad.

Also Obyron sadly doesn't belong anywhere near this thread since he will never get to even attack vs most of these without an inv save and versus the ini 1's he's got 3 attacks so he will do 1-2 wounds before saves. That's the problem with necron HQ's in melee atm without mss they are weak but with they are op.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Another thread about top models for challenges got me thinking. Who does everything think is the best close combat HQ units?

List your top ten close combat HQs.

For me, they are in this order;

1. Abaddon the Despoiler
2. Bloodthirster
3. Darnath Lysander
4. Ghazgul Thraka(mostly because for 2 turns he has a 2+ invuln)
5. The Swarmlord
6. Kharn the Betrayer
7. Necron Overlord(with everything, MSS, Warscythe, Semp Weave, Phase Shifter etc.)
8. The Sanguinor (with Power Axe Glaive Encarmine)
9. Kaldor Draigo (low on the list because his sword is only AP 3)
10. Lelith Hesperax

Honorable Mentions;

Mephiston - Good, but no invuln and his sword is only AP 3.
Vargard Obyron - Once again no invuln. Hits hard, but very slow.

mostly sound....

however there are mutliple ways to look at this, those on the list are the ones that really kick ass- providing they get into CC

a few of my tabletop favourites:

Khorne lord with axe of blind fury- when you roll well he can kill squads on his own, but you always stick him in a squad

Abaddon- well the ultimate marine bad ass, he'll take any heads that get thrown his way but has a nasty habit of becoming 'target practice' for the big guns

Ork warbosses- always give and take a good beating...

Dark Eldar archons- well they are slippery gits, mine has taken many heads over the years, people seem to forget that a 2+ invulnerable save is a pain to get rid of, and then get whipped to death in a sadistic fashion- no not in that way

Any large daemon- we all know how good they can be....

Honourable mention- Grey Knight librarians, never mess with one of these when he has a few powers on the go. I whacked lucius the eternal in a challenge- quicksilver, hammerhand and a quick fire up of the light sabre (and my opponent failed the invunlerbale save...) ensure he was splattered . Many lols ensued on all sides

Mephiston is an odd one- he is nasty but most of the time he dies to shooting, when my Dark Eldar killed him it was rather messy

just my few cents

 Sasori wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Swarmlord should be a the top of the list. 80% to get Iron Arm, with 4 bio rolls. With Iron Army he hands any other HQ their ass.

Believe me, I'm all for the Swarmlord, but when it comes to cost vs damage output he's edged out by Skarbrand with his ridiculous profile and wargear, and Mindshackle cheese will still destroy any character or single model unit over half the time for 15 points.

Are we talking about Cost-Vs Damage output, or the best HQ in close combat? Because the Swarmlord still punks Skarbrand in CC, if he's got Iron Arm.

Not to mention Skarbrand gives your opponents rage and hatred.

Not really, Instant Death AP2 Fleshbane, good bye Swarmlord.

I think Yriel, Fuegan and Karandras all deserve honourable mentions. Sure they may not be super beatsticks in the league of Skarbrand, the Swarmlord or Abbadon, but in their own points class they are decent.

On a side note, I think the characters should be split into smaller tables based on points costs and maybe what benefits other than kills they can bring to the table.

As comparing Abbadon to St Celestine when one is over double the cost of the other is not a fair comparison imo.

No love for Sammael? His pros:

Higher Toughness
Eternal Warrior
Invulnerable save
An AP2 sword that strikes at Initiative
Higher speed means he usually gets to pick on who he wants

He's not up there with, say, Abaddon or Skarbrand but he definitely warrants a spot in the top 10.

rohansoldier wrote:
I think Yriel, Fuegan and Karandras all deserve honourable mentions. Sure they may not be super beatsticks in the league of Skarbrand, the Swarmlord or Abbadon, but in their own points class they are decent.

On a side note, I think the characters should be split into smaller tables based on points costs and maybe what benefits other than kills they can bring to the table.

As comparing Abbadon to St Celestine when one is over double the cost of the other is not a fair comparison imo.

Well topic is Top 10 HQs in CC, not top 10 HQs in common, I cant see Fuegan or Yriel being that good.. Karandras is good HQ in common but not in CC tbh.