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As much dakka as I could possibly fit into this many points. Let me know what you think!

Force Composition: 1850 points of Codex: Orks, no allied detachment, Forgeworld permitted, Competitive // WAAC (against Vendetta/Helldrake builds)
Strategy: Gunline, Anti-Air
Local Meta: Fliers, Aegis Defense Lines, Helldrakes and Vendettas, IG Allies, Terminators, Space Marines, Necrons - essentially all of the cheese all of the time

Headquarters - 113
"SAG Mek" - Big Mek w/ SAG, Cybork, Bosspole, Ammo Runt

Elites - 405
9x Lootas
9x Lootas
9x Lootas

Troops - 480
20x Shoota Boys
20x Shoota Boys
20x Shoota Boys
20x Shoota Boys

Fast Attack - 405
3x Dakkajet w/ RPJ, Extra Shoota, Flyboss

Heavy Support - 390
3x "Supa-Trakk" - Big Trakk w/ Supa-Kannon, 'ard case
Forgeworld unit, AV 12/11/10, Range 60" S9 AP3 pie plate ordinance)

Fortifications - 50
Aegis Defense Line, no Gun Turret

Points Total: 1843

Considering dropping a boys mob for another SAG, or swapping three units of 9 Lootas for two units of 12 and putting the extra points to some other use. Perhaps a KFF Mek. Perhaps swapping out a Supa-Trakk for a Flakk Trakk (Quad Gun, 6 Big Shootas, AV 12/11/10) or allying one in since despite being an anti-air list, I lack any kind of intercept and my Dakkajets cannot hurt the cheese fliers from the front.

I'd like a competitive list but when it comes to those recent, overpowered fliers, this list is aiming for WAAC levels of powerbuilding - at least 75% of my opponents will have one or the other (more often IG allies with Vendettas than Helldrakes), and I'd like to make them regret that if its even possible for Orks to do that.

Good lord that's a lot of Dakka! I wouldn't do anything with the Lootas, aside from possibly adding one to the squads to bring their Ld up to 10. They can still GTG that way to get that beautiful cover.

I'm wondering if you plan on taking your boys forward or staying back and letting the marines come to you. I can see the advantages of both, especially considering Purge the alien vs. objective centered games. Write back and let me know how you plan to run for each situation.

Other than that, if you're going for a straight Dakka list, I don't think you could get much more than what you have. I want to try that out now, too.

What does the flyboss and RPJ do for the Dakka jets?

This looks like it could do really well I just can't seem to find a fault in this list (though I'm not a HUGE Ork player myself) but I think a couple of bad rolls could REALLY mess up your whole plan x)

Hell drakes will ruin your day but I run a very similar list to this and it ruins vendettas like noones business. It also is good for taking out cron air.

kaiservonhugal wrote:What does the flyboss and RPJ do for the Dakka jets?

RPJ is the same for the Dakka Jet as it is for any other Ork vehicle: +1 inch to total movement. That means the jet can scream across the board long ways and be off the far edge the next turn. That's really the only standing advantage I can see for that particular upgrade. Situationally it might help get an extra few bodies in range, but it's so fast anyway, to me it seems pointless. To each their own, though.

krazykishere wrote:Hell drakes will ruin your day but I run a very similar list to this and it ruins vendettas like noones business. It also is good for taking out cron air.

I agree completely. Lootas in particular are terrific for chomping down aircraft. I had a friend that played chaos and necrons. He stopped taking his turkies and croissants because they never lasted more than one turn.

Red Paint Job allows the flier to move 13" but only count penalties up to 12". This apparantly lets them claim a 4+ cover save for moving really fast, without suffering the penalty for going really fast which is snapfiring their weapons.

Flyboss is the same as the old Fighta Ace. BS 3 vs skimmers and fliers. Combined with their new Strafing Run rule which gives BS 3 vs everything else and its the most accurate shooter in the Ork codex.

Hell drakes will ruin your day but I run a very similar list to this and it ruins vendettas like noones business. It also is good for taking out cron air.

Really? I designed this list to beat Helldrakes. I admit though, AV 12 fliers kind of are unkillable by Orks but I reckon enough Lootas can hopefully take them down. Any suggestions though?

but I think a couple of bad rolls could REALLY mess up your whole plan x)

Ha, thats Orks for you.

I'm wondering if you plan on taking your boys forward or staying back and letting the marines come to you. I can see the advantages of both, especially considering Purge the alien vs. objective centered games. Write back and let me know how you plan to run for each situation.

The boys will probably be hanging back and sneaking forward where they can find good cover. I need them to protect against deep strike and such. I will try to get them a bit up the field though where their S4 can hurt AV 10 rear armour on the cheesy fliers. What they won't be doing is WAAAGHin' across the board.

I thought that Orks became fearless at 10 hence the 9 Lootas, but if I've misread the rule, I'll definitely be doing that as Loota leadership is one of their biggest flaws

I would really consider trying to max out those Lootas. Probably worth dropping an entire 30 man Ork mob to do it if needed.

My main concern is that they have poor Leadership, so having 12-15 increases the chances (or rather how long) they'll stay where they are and won't get pinned down. The plus side is that they just Snap Fire as they run off the table now, so if they do break you are taking a 50% penalty to your accuracy versus them being completely useless up to the point they drop off the table. But still. If it were me I'd want them Fearless.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I thought that Orks became fearless at 10 hence the 9 Lootas, but if I've misread the rule, I'll definitely be doing that as Loota leadership is one of their biggest flaws

10 is the highest allowable leadership according to the rules, so at 11 they become fearless.

And the inevitable casualties...

The plus side is that they just Snap Fire as they run off the table now, so if they do break you are taking a 50% penalty to your accuracy versus them being completely useless up to the point they drop off the table.

What rule are you talking about here? I had no idea I could snap-fire them as they ran. They're heavy D3 though, you sure they can fire at all?

You can move and snap fire, but you can't run and snap fire.

Damn, didn't know that. I'm still thinking in terms of 3rd edition rules.

Can they snap fire if they're fleeing off the board? I'm pretty sure they can't...

You would rape heldrakes not lose to them. Just the lootas alone all targeting one coming on board would do it

If you're fleeing, you cant snapfire. But on the turn that you regroup you can as well as when you move.

I dont think you'll be exactly 'r*ping' heldrakes but as far as orks go you'll have the best possible shot. From each loota unit of average 18 shots thats 3 hits and 1 glance. You would need all three units going for 1 heldrake and even then its no sure bargain. Plus if a heldrake flames the unit then they're probably gone. But its probably the best we can do.

 rahxephon wrote:
If you're fleeing, you cant snapfire. But on the turn that you regroup you can as well as when you move.

That is exactly wrong actually. Per Page 30, any models that are falling back an only make Snap Shots. I think you are confusing the act of "Running", which is a form of movement in the shooting phase, with "falling back", which sometimes is called "running away"

But since you can only Snap Fire at Flyers anyways, this doesn't hurt too bad until your guys go off the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, 15 shots from Deffgunz versus a Helldrake turns into 0.41666667 Glances and 0.41666667 Penetrations before you start to factor in the rest of the defensive options available to a Helldrake.

If you had 3 units of 15 Lootas and all 3 units got 3 shots per model, you'd be looking at 3.75 Glances and 3.75 Penetrations before taking those other defensive options into account. So really, volume is exceptionally important here, as usual with Orks.

Those Dakkajets combined with Lootas should be enough, but I'd still really consider maxing 'em out.

^^ my bad, didn't have the rules handy, was just going off memory (as shakey as that is )

Can't believe it. Max out the best AA in the Ork codex and still can't reliably kill one goddamn Helldrake. Talk about bad balance.

His mathhammer only included what would happen if you only had 15 loota shots when a squad of 15 lootas have the potential to out 45 with one squad of 15. I think he would be fine with using just ten man squads of them

Me thinks that cowmonaut's math hammer is a little off. If you're hitting on 6s, that's 16.666667%, of shots that are making their target. 1/6th of 45 (max fire for a full squad) is 7.2. 1/3 (33%) of those 7 hits will damage (glance and pen) armor 12, or 2.31. Reliably, one full squad of Lootas at max fire will take out a Helldrake on its front armor in one turn 1/3 times, and almost 100% of the time on the second. Now, if you're shooting at rear armor, that stat moves up to 4.62 wounding shots per shooting round. That, obviously, is more than enough to take out a flier. Multiply that by 3, and you get a flier killing machine.

Two squads of ten Lootas will statistically wound a Helldrake's face 3 times on max fire. Rear armor is over 6 wounds. That poor turkey doesn't stand a statistical chance, especially if you roll well. This is why I typically deploy my Lootas on opposite sides of the board. They can provide cover for each other, and there's a greater chance for one of the squads to get a lower armor value facing them. Dakka away!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Upon further inspection, cowmonaut's math is not at all wrong; it may be a little misleading, though. What he's showing for wounds with max fire for 45 Lootas will reliably take out two fliers in a single turn. That's some good anti-air. Also, there's a 33.333% chance to drop the aircraft where it is by rolling a 5 or 6 on the pen chart. Immobilize a flier and down it comes, killing everyone inside.

Apologies, cowmonaut, for calling you out on false pretenses.

No worries. I'm always paranoid about my math anyways so the scrutiny is nice! Also, my Math didn't factor in everything so it will look a bit wrong. BTW I did 15 shots for the first batch to show what would happen if a single 15 strong Loota squad had the worst number of shots possible, since a D3 does not always come up a 3. Also note that my second example was the other extreme, 45 Lootas getting 3 shots a piece...

Helldrakes are nasty. They have a 5++ from being Daemons, heal a HP on a 5+ at the end of every friendly player turn, are AV 12 (except on the rear), have 3 HP, and are Flyers. They get to Vector Strike at S7 anything they pass over and can always fire their gun (unless you blow it off). Let's not even talk about being able to re-roll To-Hits, To-Wounds, and Penetrations once per game.

Let's take just a single unit of Lootas, 15 strong. Factoring in everything you are putting on 0.278 - 0.833 Glances and 0.278-0.833 Penetrations, depending what you roll for the number of shots. That means you are even worse off than I originally had said apparently. If 45 Lootas put out 135 shots, you'd be able to put out 2.5 Glances and 2.5 Penetrations and kill it outright. Statistically. Middle of the road? That's 90 shots for 0.42 Glances and 0.42 Penetrations.

At the same time, if you roll bad and those 45 Lootas only put out 45 shots you are looking at only 0.834 Glances and another 0.834 Penetrations. That's only 1.67 HP lost that turn.

Dakkajets sadly are even worse against the Helldrake. 3 Supa Shootas (S6 AP4 Assault 3 30" IIRC) with Flying Ace (BS 3) against AV10 and a 5++ save?. That's 0.125 Glances and 0.25 Penetrations. If you Waaagh! that Turn you get double the shots, but that's still far less reliable than the Snap Firing Lootas. They are entirely useless if you aren't behind the Helldrake too. Versus AV12 and that damnable 5++ you only get 0.125 Glances against it and 0 Penetrations.


So if you have Flyers in your meta and are playing Orks, max out those Lootas and pray to Gork and Mork that you roll a 5 or 6 on your D3 for number of shots often! Or play Speed Freaks and stay inside the flight path of the Flyers. Still sucks against the Helldrake thanks to S7 Vector Strikes, but its probably better than holding still.

Don't forget about the turret mounted baleflamer. So difficult to avoid

Dakkajets, our only dedicated anti-air in the entire codex, fail against the fething helldrakes

Yes I am pissed.

I am leaning towards speed freeks even though I don't think it would be as strong as a gunline. Tbh gunlines are just plain dull to play with. But I think its now mandatory to squeeze in 45 lootas after seeing that math

*points at lifta droppah* *target flyers* enjoy. (it's not auto hit!)

Best way to deal with helldrakes is to challenge. Not the drake but the opponent. If he has honor he will put it in hover mode and duel with a power klaw . In reality though there's not a huge amount you can do to reliably take them out.

Lol, you can't shoot fliers with a Lifta Wagon. I actually did this once when we were unsure of the rules, and naturally, it took it down to one HP but didn't kill it.

you could toss in flakk trakks if you really need the AA

IG allies with Sabre Guns

I play orks and CSM. The first thing I would do when my helldrakes come on the board is flame those lootas. 5 - 8 will die in each squad and 1 - 2 will fall back after. You will take out one on your turn and then the drakes will finish them off to at least a point where they are a non issue. Against any other flyers though lootas are some of the best AA out there.