Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys,
currently I am really struggeling with my army choice. I like the fluff and I enjoy the three different paint schemes a lot but in my opinion thats not all. A game is only fun if you win at least occasionally.
Right now after losing about 10 games in a row I am getting kind of frustrated with my army choice in general and really think about a permanent swap. I want to play Space Marines and although i know that "ingame" Marines tend to be a mid-range army in general i wouldn´t mind to be able to pack a punch in cqc...
I know that DA are basically a Vanilla-Chapter with a twist. But what is this twist? Is it only the different fluff + the ability to take DW and RW? What would you recommend to a fellow DA player to improve his gameplay? Where are our strong points at all?

Spoiler contains a look at what my Army consists of.

non-scattering terminators that count as troops? Sounds pretty nice to me.

there is nothgin quite as worrying as 4 Terminator sqauds all appearing together behind your lines in turn 2 and not scattering....at all (provided you take Belial as well).

The nice thing about that book (imo) is that there are a variety of builds that can be both fun AND somewhat competative in a LGS environment.

For me, the big "s" word (synergy) is what makes them special. I like to take a solid wall of tacticals with Azrael and a Dakka banner to anchor the middle of the field. They are then supported by a large (ish) squad of Ravenwing bikers with a homing beacon that are used to bring down my Death Wing squads. It's a combined arms approach that has worked well as the core of my army since the codex came out. I have found that it's strong enough that all I have to do is swap out heavy, fast attack and elites choices from time to time depending on what I want to do, but that core can almost always stay the same.

To me, your list looks schizophrenic. Like you're not sure what you want it to do. I think you just need to spend a little time focusing on a strategy and then making a list to match.

Well, you could take 3 Landraiders in close proximity one of which containing a Cmd squad with the standard of devastation and a Libby with a 3++ invulnerable save for units within 3''. That's a quite potent force.

 Praxiss wrote:
non-scattering terminators that count as troops? Sounds pretty nice to me.

there is nothgin quite as worrying as 4 Terminator sqauds all appearing together behind your lines in turn 2 and not scattering....at all (provided you take Belial as well).

And they have split fire, and twin linked on the turn they come down!

They still scatter though, the teleport homer has to be on the table from the start of the turn they come in.

Doesn't Belial scatter and then all other Deathwing dont as long as they are within 6" of him?

 Praxiss wrote:
Doesn't Belial scatter and then all other Deathwing dont as long as they are within 6" of him?

Belials Special Rule means he doesnt scatter when he deep strikes (him and the squad he's with). He also has a teleport homer like the RW bikes so with 6" of he deep striking units wont scatter. But with Deathwing Assault, you really want (in Turn 1 or 2) a big blob coming in with Belial, and any other blobs coming in 6" from any bikes you have, as they cant use Belials homer if they come in on the same turn as him. Deathwing Assault means all your Deep Striking termies have to come in on turn 1 or 2 together.

Huh, i thought they coudl all just use Belials homer - so deepstrike in, like, him and 5 squads of termies who then all wander off next turn to wreck face.

Tycho wrote:

To me, your list looks schizophrenic. Like you're not sure what you want it to do. I think you just need to spend a little time focusing on a strategy and then making a list to match.

Sounds pretty reasonable, DA are my first army and i sort of went berserk while shopping because lots of my stuff has been bought because I liked the look of it...
After trying out different strategies I had my last game with this list and it was the closest thing I had to a win...

I am veteran Dark Angel player, not that it makes me the best person to advise you, but here goes.
Here are my suggestions for you of some good options.
get 2 squads of devastators with 4 lascannons for 150 points or 220 (if you want the 10 man which is useful).
Get an aegis and quad-gun. 100 points (for anti air).
And a 10 man tactical squad that will sit in your back field 140-180 depending on options.
Get a warlord librarian with a powerfield generator to sit in the middle at the back and cast prescience, make sure some of your guys are in the 4++ field (i.e. 3")

This equates to 565 - 705.

Then get yourself a 5 man command squad with 5 flamers in a drop-pod 160pts. These will absolutely beast some squad.

After that you're free to select troops and options the fit your style more.

You could go with some bikes or termies as you feel is necessary.
This gives you some decent anti-air, anti-tank, and anti-meq.

That would be the start point to build round. The reason i suggest a librarian as warlord is he's at the back and less likely to be killed.

I will admit marines aren't my strongest army they're just not focused enough.

A friend of mine uses a unit of 7 Deathwing Knights with a Librarian (who takes Prescience) in a Landraider Crusader.

They always perform well in every game he plays. Perhaps its just my local meta.

 Praxiss wrote:
Huh, i thought they coudl all just use Belials homer - so deepstrike in, like, him and 5 squads of termies who then all wander off next turn to wreck face.

Teleport Homer does say specifically, that to use it it needs to be on the table at the start of the turn.

As for the OP:

It looks to me that your light in your Fast Attack options: Get some Landspeeders. I find a pair of MM/HF speeders deepstriking in make a nice Problem solving unit,

For Terminator squads: You need to take advantage of the fact that we can mix TH/SS terminators in with our Shooty Terminators. Have at least 2 TH/SS termies in the squad and always put them at the front so they eat up all those low AP weapons they will throw at them.

The only use I've found for Veterans: Is to put them into a droppod with a mix of Combi-melta and Combi-flamers to support a Deathwing Assault.

When it comes to Devastators: You want enough so you can have the whole squad with the same weapon type. ML is a good choice generally, but plasma cannons and lascannons are also nice.

DA has a lot of focus on their FOC-swapping characters to define the rest of your list. They each have their particular build in addition to the base list. DA are basically 4 armies in one, though each build doesn't have much variety within it.

You have Azrael armies, giving you RW and DW Troops and a great character to anchor a blob or something similar. You're looking at Azrael included in a Guard blob to make them Fearless with support from RW and/or DW as needed.

Belial makes DW. Deathwing have lot of bits, but they're overpriced and undergunned. You'll be focusing mostly on Deathwing Assault to get off an alpha strike to mitigate your low numbers and firepower. Something like 20 Scouts combat squadded and hidden on the table trying to survive a turn until 20+ Terminators drop in turn 1 or 2 to do what they can.

Sammael makes RW. RW is probably the most competitive DA build around. Azrael blob is great, but IG blob + Marine IC is pretty common these days. RW lists are centered on the Banner of Devastation. Infantry don't get much use out of it because they can't move and fire, Terminators get 0 benefit (if only...) so that leaves Relentless Bikes to drown the enemy in bullets. Sammy, a big Command Squad, power field biker IC (Heldrake insurance) and swarms of bikes throwing out tons of shots.

Finally, you have the base list, or Greenwing. This plays very similarly to vanilla marines, just with different options. You've got cheap Troops, solid support units in the form of Deathwing Knights and Black Knights and a lot of cheap shooting from the recently discounted Devastators, Predators and Whirlwinds. This is the shooty marine army.

That's basically the 4 DA list archetypes. If you've been playing DA forever like me, you can shift things around and field whatever whenever. If your collection is smaller (like a sane person's) you should pick one archetype and build towards it. Then you can expand as you like while still having a base to work from.

Sort of touched on this in your other thread here. What I find strong about Dark Angels is what their Terminators and Bikes can offer. Especially when used in tandem. Just slapped this 1500 point list together:

Librarian - 70 points
1 w/ Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Psychic Hood, Auspex

Techmarine - 85 points
1 w/ Artificer Armour, Combi-Melta, Servo-Arm, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Auspex, Space Marine Bike (with Twin-Linked Boltgun)

Tactical Squad - 225 points
1 Space Marine Sergeant w/ Power Armour, Combi-Flamer, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
1 Space Marine w/ Power Armour, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Flakk Missiles
1 Space Marine w/ Power Armour, Plasma Gun, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
7 Space Marines w/ Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
1 Rhino w/ Storm Bolter, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers

Tactical Squad - 190 points
1 Space Marine Sergeant w/ Power Armour, Combi-Flamer, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
1 Space Marine w/ Power Armour, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Flakk Missiles
1 Space Marine w/ Power Armour, Plasma Gun, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
7 Space Marines w/ Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades

Scouts Squad - 165 points
1 Scout Sergeant w/ Scout Armour, Combi-Flamer, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Camo Cloak
1 Scout w/ Scout Armour, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Flakk Missiles, Camo Cloak
8 Scouts w/ Scout Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Camo Cloak

Deathwing Terminator Squadron - 279 points
1 Deathwing Term Sgt w/ Terminator Armour, Storm Bolter, Power Sword
3 Deathwing Terminator w/ Terminator Armour, Storm Bolter, Power Fist
1 Deathwing Terminator w/ Terminator Armour, Plasma Cannon, Power Fist
2 Deathwing Terminator w/ Terminator Armour, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer

Ravenwing Attack Squadron - 336 points
1 Ravenwing Sergeant w/ Power Armour, Combi-Melta, Lightning Claw, Twin-Linked Boltgun, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Teleport Homer
2 Ravenwing Bikers w/ Power Armour, Meltagun, Twin-Linked Boltgun, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Teleport Homer
3 Ravenwing Bikers w/ Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Twin-Linked Boltgun, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Teleport Homer
1 Ravenwing Attack Bike w/ Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Twin-Linked Boltgun, Multi-Melta, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Teleport Homer
1 Land Speeder w/ Heavy Flamer, Typhoon Missile Launcher

Devastator Squad - 150 points
1 Space Marine Sergeant w/ Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Signum
4 Space Marines w/ Power Armour, Lascannon, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades

General Strategy with the list:
- Tactical Squad on foot + Devastators set up on home Objective. Librarian joins the Devastators. Tactical Squad should be screening the Devastators.
- Scout Squad Infiltrates onto another Objective if possible. Preferably one in some Bolstered terrain piece.
- Deathwing should be told to come in on Turn 2 or Turn 3, depending on terrain setup
- Ravenwing + Rhino mounted Tactical + Techmarine on Bike should advance rapidly to take an enemy Objective
- Depending on opponent, combat squad Ravenwing Bikes. Probably 2 Meltaguns in one Combat Squad, and the Sergeant in the other.
- Get one Ravenwing Bike deep into enemy territory by Turn 2 or Turn 3 (preferably with the Techmarine and his Auspex), let the Deathwing Deep Strike by him. Their Vengeful Strike coupled with the Plasma Cannon and Auspex should help dislodge the enemy. Stomp around their lines with your Terminators.
- This entire time the Landspeeder is providing fire support. Enemy tanks should easily be made slag between the 4 BS5 Twin-Linked Lascannons, 4-5 Krak Missile shots (Typoon + Troops), and several (2-4) Meltagun shots.
- Enemy Flyers shouldn't been too numerous at this point level. 3 Skyfire Krak Missiles and 4 Twin-Linked Lascannons should help deal with those that are present.

Dark Angels truly are more about combined arms strategies than other Space Marine armies. For Space Wolves for example, you almost always take lots of Grey Hunters over anything else. With Dark Angels, it seems you really want to be taking 1 unit of Deathwing and 1 unit of Ravenwing minimum to support your Tactical Squads. Space Wolves rely on their basic troops to do a lot of different things, while Dark Angels rely more on their supporting units for, well, support!

If you are already that deep into collecting an army I would really just try to learn to use it properly. But then I tend to play more for the challenge involved in getting something to work.

Wow that really helped me a lot!
But i got a couple of questions about that list and some things I would change (mostly because I want to use as many models i already own as possible)
What does the Techmarine do in this list? In my version I replaced him with Belial instead so I have even more scoring units and don´t rely on RW scouting forward.
As i don´t have that many RW units I cut them down to a unit of 3 bikes, 3 knights and a trike. Is the loss of the LS typhoon worth this trade? I´ve never used one so I don´t know what a LS is capable of.

So are SB/PF termies really good now? I havnt really be paying much attention to terminator loadouts after the new codex dropped, but is having twin linked storm bolters for 1 turn worth sacrificing TH/SS? Do people take the AC instead of the CML now?

i think the beauty of DA is that you can mix you terminator squads up (i think - i dont have the codex).

So in a squad of 5 you could have 2 TH/SS terminator to soak up damage, and support them with a couple of SB/PF guys as well.

 Billagio wrote:
So are SB/PF termies really good now? I havnt really be paying much attention to terminator loadouts after the new codex dropped, but is having twin linked storm bolters for 1 turn worth sacrificing TH/SS? Do people take the AC instead of the CML now?

My standard for 5 men is 2TH/SS, CF & AC. 255 Points that'll do some useful things. If 10 man then 4TH/SS & 2*AC, 500 points. I find that you if you cannot spend it elsewhere in the list you can easily chuck another SW on the squad, or upgrade to CML's.

Well, not sure if this codex is really good. DW and RW are elite armies which struggle versus some armies out there. Greenwing is an option which is more well-rounded.