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I was playing against Tyranids the other day and he infiltrated his genestealers from behind.
One of my own special rules allows me to force him to re-roll which side he comes in from but he has a special rule that allows him to re-roll which side he comes in from.

So do re-rolls stack? So if I force him to re-roll can he re-roll that?

Thanks

No, in this case your reroll is after he decided where his Genstealers will appeare.


1. chase: He roll -> Bad roll -> He re-rolls -> Now you can force him to re-roll again
2. chase: He roll -> Good roll (He takes it) -< You force him to re-roll his result


Thats how we play it

Fandarel is correct. There are two steps here

Step 1: Him rolling (or re-rolling if he wishes) to decide which side to deploy on
Step 2: You seeing which side he deploys on and making him re-roll.

So even if he doesn't reroll the first deployment, he doesnt get to roll again after you force him to because it was after made his decision.

Per page 5 no re-rolling re-rolls. You can also just save time and go with the first roll.

Fandarel and those who agree with him are incorrect. You can only be made to re-roll once.

So it goes like this:

1) He chooses a side and rolls.

2) if he fails, he may reroll as per his ability (or as per your ability, but I'd presume you want him to fail for this example).
3) If he succeeds, he may re-roll as per your ability (or per his ability, but I'd presume he wanted to succeed for this example).

In either case, there may never be a second 'reroll'.

Practically speaking the first roll doesn't really matter as it is getting re-rolled either way, so you may as well have them cancel each other out and just accept the first roll if you want to be quick about it.

You may never re-roll a re-roll.

RAW, the first roll doesn't matter as someone can force the re-roll so only the second roll will have any effect on the game. Most people I play use the "cancel out method" stated above.

Does this also apply to digital weapons/twin-linked template weapons and Yarrick? I wound up having to re-roll several successful wounds in a recent game that I had already re-rolled. Would I have been in my rights to say that Yarrick couldn't force me to re-roll the wounds that had already been re-rolled?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Does this also apply to digital weapons/twin-linked template weapons and Yarrick? I wound up having to re-roll several successful wounds in a recent game that I had already re-rolled. Would I have been in my rights to say that Yarrick couldn't force me to re-roll the wounds that had already been re-rolled?

Yes you would have had a valid stance.

You can never re-roll a re-roll. That is all there is to it.

If something gives you the ability to re-roll all failed hits, and something else tells you to re-roll all successful hits, then you can roll the dice, pick them up and roll them all again (The failed because of your ability, the successful because of your opponents). Of course you could just save time by rolling once and not re-rolling anything.

Unless it's not a one on one combat. Only the wounds that get allocated to Yarrick have to get re-rolled. So in that case, I'm re-rolling my misses no matter what, but my opponent is only forcing re-rolls on the wounds that go to Yarrick. The other successful ones are just squicking Guardsmen like they're butter.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Unless it's not a one on one combat. Only the wounds that get allocated to Yarrick have to get re-rolled. So in that case, I'm re-rolling my misses no matter what, but my opponent is only forcing re-rolls on the wounds that go to Yarrick. The other successful ones are just squicking Guardsmen like they're butter.

Naturally.

Therefore:

If a wound is allocated to Yarrick, and the save fails, then Yarrick's controller can re-roll the failed save. Once this re-roll is completed no further re-roll attempts are possible regardless of the outcome of the re-roll.

If a wound is allocated to Yarrick, and the save passes, then Yarrick's controller's opponent can force the re-roll of the successful save. Once this re-roll is completed no further re-roll attempts are possible regardless of the outcome of the re-roll.

That sounds messy, in practice. We know that wounds are divvied by profile and those groups are allocated in the order specified by the firer (roughly speaking). Would they also be separated by whether or not they were re-rolled?

E.g., shuricats are firing at Doom'd Yarrick at the front of a squad. 8 wounds on the first roll, 4 wounds from re-rolls. Does the firer get to say, "Yarrick's in front, so roll saves against the already re-rolled shots first."?

Pyrian wrote:
That sounds messy, in practice. We know that wounds are divvied by profile and those groups are allocated in the order specified by the firer (roughly speaking). Would they also be separated by whether or not they were re-rolled?

E.g., shuricats are firing at Doom'd Yarrick at the front of a squad. 8 wounds on the first roll, 4 wounds from re-rolls. Does the firer get to say, "Yarrick's in front, so roll saves against the already re-rolled shots first."?

There's an excellent example of where you would HAVE to roll dice one at a time. The ability to roll dice in batches is for convenience, in situations where it doesn't matter.

 Janthkin wrote:
There's an excellent example of where you would HAVE to roll dice one at a time. The ability to roll dice in batches is for convenience, in situations where it doesn't matter.

Meh, all saves are either rolled one at a time or functionally equivalent to rolling one at a time. I think that's uninteresting. I was asking about the order in which they're rolled.

Pyrian wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:
There's an excellent example of where you would HAVE to roll dice one at a time. The ability to roll dice in batches is for convenience, in situations where it doesn't matter.

Meh, all saves are either rolled one at a time or functionally equivalent to rolling one at a time. I think that's uninteresting. I was asking about the order in which they're rolled.

It's not just the saves. In that particular case, you'd actually have to roll the WOUND rolls one at a time, as Yarrick can only force you to reroll wounds allocated to him, and you'll have to know which wounds have already been rerolled once.

(Realistically, I'd suggest this approach - roll everything to wound once. Set aside successful wounds, and reroll the failed wounds, preferably with different-colored dice. Then start allocating - assuming it's just a single wound pool, Yarrick's player can decide to deal with the not-yet-rerolled dice first and allocate them up to 3 at a time to Yarrick, forcing rerolls as he goes, and trying to use LOS! to pass off the already-rerolled wounds.)

 Janthkin wrote:
...Yarrick's player can decide to deal with the not-yet-rerolled dice first...

Can he, though? On what basis does Yarrick's player get any say in the matter?

 Janthkin wrote:
...and allocate them up to 3 at a time to Yarrick, forcing rerolls as he goes, and trying to use LOS! to pass off the already-rerolled wounds.)

I disagree with this. You can't use the fact that the wound was allocated to Yarrick, take the re-roll, and then pass it on. If you successfully LOS!, the wound isn't really allocated to him.

Pyrian wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:
...Yarrick's player can decide to deal with the not-yet-rerolled dice first...

Can he, though? On what basis does Yarrick's player get any say in the matter?

Again, assuming that there is a single wound pool (which is to say, that all wounds were inflicted with the same S/AP), Yarrick's player gets to allocate wounds & save them. How otherwise?

 Janthkin wrote:
...and allocate them up to 3 at a time to Yarrick, forcing rerolls as he goes, and trying to use LOS! to pass off the already-rerolled wounds.)

I disagree with this. You can't use the fact that the wound was allocated to Yarrick, take the re-roll, and then pass it on. If you successfully LOS!, the wound isn't really allocated to him.

No argument. The latter part of the sentence is referring to those dice already rerolled via Doom, rather than those that Yarrick has already had allocated to him. Per the rewrite to Look Out, Sir!, once a wound has been allocated to the model, they're stuck with it.

 Janthkin wrote:
Again, assuming that there is a single wound pool (which is to say, that all wounds were inflicted with the same S/AP), Yarrick's player gets to allocate wounds & save them.

He doesn't get to allocate them, though. That rule doesn't exist. He merely applies them to the closest model, no choice involved (aside from LOS!). There's not supposed to be an "order" of wounds in a single wound group in the first place; they're supposed to be identical.

 Janthkin wrote:
How otherwise?

For most effects, you'd divide them into separate wound pools and the firing player would decide what order they're resolved in. I think you'd have to take that as precedent in this case, because I can't think of any other way to do it. I'll review the exact wording later.

 Janthkin wrote:
The latter part of the sentence is referring to those dice already rerolled via Doom, rather than those that Yarrick has already had allocated to him.

Oh, okay, sorry I misread that.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Unless it's not a one on one combat. Only the wounds that get allocated to Yarrick have to get re-rolled. So in that case, I'm re-rolling my misses no matter what, but my opponent is only forcing re-rolls on the wounds that go to Yarrick. The other successful ones are just squicking Guardsmen like they're butter.

Naturally.

Therefore:

If a wound is allocated to Yarrick, and the save fails, then Yarrick's controller can re-roll the failed save. Once this re-roll is completed no further re-roll attempts are possible regardless of the outcome of the re-roll.

If a wound is allocated to Yarrick, and the save passes, then Yarrick's controller's opponent can force the re-roll of the successful save. Once this re-roll is completed no further re-roll attempts are possible regardless of the outcome of the re-roll.

Wait...I'm lost...how did saves come into it? I thought Yarrick just made you re-roll any successful wound allocated to him. So the steps go, (using lightning claws as an example) as I understand it, roll all the wounds, then re-roll any failed wounds rolls, then apply the wounds one at a time to Yarrick's squad, if any wounds get applied to Yarrick AND they are not wounds which have already been re-rolled, then Yarrick's player may force those wounds to be re-rolled. Do I have that right?

And if that IS the way it works, as the controlling player, if all the wounds in the wound pool stem from the same source, do I decide whether or not the ones which have already been re-rolled get applied first or second?

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand how all this works together.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Unless it's not a one on one combat. Only the wounds that get allocated to Yarrick have to get re-rolled. So in that case, I'm re-rolling my misses no matter what, but my opponent is only forcing re-rolls on the wounds that go to Yarrick. The other successful ones are just squicking Guardsmen like they're butter.

Naturally.

Therefore:

If a wound is allocated to Yarrick, and the save fails, then Yarrick's controller can re-roll the failed save. Once this re-roll is completed no further re-roll attempts are possible regardless of the outcome of the re-roll.

If a wound is allocated to Yarrick, and the save passes, then Yarrick's controller's opponent can force the re-roll of the successful save. Once this re-roll is completed no further re-roll attempts are possible regardless of the outcome of the re-roll.

Wait...I'm lost...how did saves come into it? I thought Yarrick just made you re-roll any successful wound allocated to him. So the steps go, (using lightning claws as an example) as I understand it, roll all the wounds, then re-roll any failed wounds rolls, then apply the wounds one at a time to Yarrick's squad, if any wounds get applied to Yarrick AND they are not wounds which have already been re-rolled, then Yarrick's player may force those wounds to be re-rolled. Do I have that right?

And if that IS the way it works, as the controlling player, if all the wounds in the wound pool stem from the same source, do I decide whether or not the ones which have already been re-rolled get applied first or second?

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand how all this works together.

Saves came into it because of your earlier post.

i have no idea what Yarrick does, as I do not play or face Guard armies.

You said:

Jimsolo wrote:Does this also apply to digital weapons/twin-linked template weapons and Yarrick? I wound up having to re-roll several successful wounds in a recent game that I had already re-rolled. Would I have been in my rights to say that Yarrick couldn't force me to re-roll the wounds that had already been re-rolled?

And you lumped digital weapons/twin-linked template weapons in with Yarrick, therefore I thought you were talking about re-rolls to hit.

No, Yarrick has a weird personal force field. It makes you re-roll successful wounds allocated to him. (Rather than successful hits.) I'm pretty sure it happens before any saves are even rolled. Sorry for the confusion.

Yonush wrote:
You may never re-roll a re-roll.

RAW, the first roll doesn't matter as someone can force the re-roll so only the second roll will have any effect on the game. Most people I play use the "cancel out method" stated above.

Well that would be so for things that are clear.

However that first roll might be seen as good by the Nid player and bad by the other and hence never get re-rolled either.

Baktru wrote:

Yonush wrote:
You may never re-roll a re-roll.

RAW, the first roll doesn't matter as someone can force the re-roll so only the second roll will have any effect on the game. Most people I play use the "cancel out method" stated above.

Well that would be so for things that are clear.

However that first roll might be seen as good by the Nid player and bad by the other and hence never get re-rolled either.

It is really something you need to discuss pre-roll and stick with that method for the entire game.

E.G. A GK Squad with a librarian has prescience up and is shooting at a Swooping FMC therefore they need 6's to hit and they can re-roll all failed to hits. The GK unit also had a Objuration Mechanicum, a malediction, cast on it that it need to re-roll all to hit rolls of a 6.

In this case the GK unit rolls 12 dice because of its 6 storm bolters needed 6's to hit. they roll and the results are this: 1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,5,6,6. They get to re-roll the 1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,5 because of Prescience, and they must re-roll the 6,6 because of OM. so they pick up all the dice and re-roll all of them.

Or they can discuss it before the roll and just roll once to save time, and do it this way the whole game.

As others have said you only ever re-roll a die(dice) once. So since he is the active player he gets to decide if he wants to re-roll, if he doesn't then you get to decide if he has to re-roll.

Yeah I fully agree with you DeathReaper, for all cases where "good" or "bad" is fully clear. The easiest thing is to agree to just roll those once as every single die will be rerolled anyway.

 Satan's Little Helper wrote:
I was playing against Tyranids the other day and he infiltrated his genestealers from behind.
One of my own special rules allows me to force him to re-roll which side he comes in from but he has a special rule that allows him to re-roll which side he comes in from.

So do re-rolls stack? So if I force him to re-roll can he re-roll that?

Thanks

Things went on a tangent pretty quickly. Going back to the original question, the BRB says: "The second roll counts, even if it means aworse result than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll."

So you can never force him to re-roll his re-roll. The fact that both of you have the ability to force a re-roll means that in the completely ridiculous and hypothetical situation where both of you wanted to do a re-roll simultaneously you would have to dice off. In reality, he rolls a dice. Things happen. Either:

A) Player 1 is happy with the result & Player 2 are happy with the result
B) Player 1 is happy with the result & Player 2 are unhappy with the result
C) Player 1 is unhappy with the result & Player 2 are happy with the result
D) Player 1 is unhappy with the result & Player 2 are unhappy with the result

Case A, no one wants to make use of their re-roll.
Case B, Player 2 forces Player 1 to re-roll. Player 1 is stuck with the result.
Case C, Player 2 passes on the opportunity to force a re-roll, allowing Player 1 to re-roll the result. Player 2 is then stuck dealing with the result.
Case D, Both Player 1 and Player 2 want a re-roll, so it doesn't matter who causes it.

In the case of mixed saves/rerolls

split the rerolls into:

Rolls Player 1 wants to reroll
Rolls Player 2 wants to reroll

you can only reroll once, so whatever remaining after the rolls are the result.