Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If unit A is behind a defense line, in base contact with it, and unit B charges them and goes into base contact with the defense line, do they have to roll their charge as if they went through difficult terrain?

Yes they do.

Are you sure? No part of their charge is through difficult terrain.

I may well have missed something though...

King Pyrrhus wrote:
Are you sure? No part of their charge is through difficult terrain.

I may well have missed something though...

The aegis line itself is terrain and hence difficult terrain.

Since the ADL is difficult terrain, and to make it into base to base contact they'd have to charge through the ADL, they are charging through difficult terrain, regardless of the allowance to put the model in base contact and count it as base to base.

That is incorrect. You measure to the ADL itself and you charge up to the ADL not the model. See the rules for walls and fences.

You not going through the ADL but right up to it and are considered in BTB with the enemy models. So no, you not roll for difficult.

So stand 1cm back from the ADL which forces people to then stand on the wall which forces difficult?

The whole wall thing is for ease of placing models, not for avoiding difficult terrain or gaining assault distance. If you can reach the wall but the not the model behind it, your assault fails as you can't assault the wall. If you have the movement but the wall is in the way, touching the wall can simplify the act of putting models on the wall.

40k-noob wrote:
That is incorrect. You measure to the ADL itself and you charge up to the ADL not the model. See the rules for walls and fences.

You not going through the ADL but right up to it and are considered in BTB with the enemy models. So no, you not roll for difficult.

If you're in B2B with the wall you're considered to be in B2B with the unit, but you still need to be able to reach the unit to charge it.
You don't charge the wall, the rules for the ADL don't change the requirement to reach the unit. So are still charging through it.

So then being in b2b with the wall counts as b2b with the unit for the purposes of piling in and close combat but not for the purposes of assault?

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
That is incorrect. You measure to the ADL itself and you charge up to the ADL not the model. See the rules for walls and fences.

You not going through the ADL but right up to it and are considered in BTB with the enemy models. So no, you not roll for difficult.

If you're in B2B with the wall you're considered to be in B2B with the unit, but you still need to be able to reach the unit to charge it.
You don't charge the wall, the rules for the ADL don't change the requirement to reach the unit. So are still charging through it.

If by being in BTB with the wall, you are considered to in BTB with the unit behind it, then you only need to reach the wall to have a successful charge.

40k-noob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
That is incorrect. You measure to the ADL itself and you charge up to the ADL not the model. See the rules for walls and fences.

You not going through the ADL but right up to it and are considered in BTB with the enemy models. So no, you not roll for difficult.

If you're in B2B with the wall you're considered to be in B2B with the unit, but you still need to be able to reach the unit to charge it.
You don't charge the wall, the rules for the ADL don't change the requirement to reach the unit. So are still charging through it.

If by being in BTB with the wall, you are considered to in BTB with the unit behind it, then you only need to reach the wall to have a successful charge.

Honestly it is a series of horribly written rules.
If you follow the charge procedure it's possible to technically make it into B2B and still fail the Charge.
If you look at the "Failed Charge" rule, a failure is when you don't make the charge distance. It's not failure to make it into B2B. Your charge distance is to the model, not distance to B2B.

I will throw in my 2 cents on this, I know that charging a unit in an Aegis, B2B with the Aegis counts as B2B with models on the other side of it, it is to simulate that they would be reaching over the aegis with chainswords or whatnot and slashing at those on the other side.

 Brokksamson wrote:
I will throw in my 2 cents on this, I know that charging a unit in an Aegis, B2B with the Aegis counts as B2B with models on the other side of it, it is to simulate that they would be reaching over the aegis with chainswords or whatnot and slashing at those on the other side.

So what do you do if I am 1mm away from the Aegis? How 'close' does one have to be for the aegis for you not to have to 'go over' it?

Assault measures and tests terrain 'to the model' and the convention for BtB with the wall is BtB with models behind it doesn't prevent diff terrain or shorted charge distance, just is an easy convention for dealing with 'who can fight'.

tybg wrote:
If unit A is behind a defense line, in base contact with it, and unit B charges them and goes into base contact with the defense line, do they have to roll their charge as if they went through difficult terrain?

Yes. After all they have to swing over the wall.

Baktru wrote:

tybg wrote:
If unit A is behind a defense line, in base contact with it, and unit B charges them and goes into base contact with the defense line, do they have to roll their charge as if they went through difficult terrain?

Yes. After all they have to swing over the wall.

Except there are no rules for "Swinging"

We have houseruled that in order to not grand cover to everybody behind the wall as you shoot, you would need to be in a position to allow charges against the wall itself.

Not sure if that fixes all the problems, but it has fixed all the ones we have come across so far. :-P

40k-noob wrote:

Baktru wrote:

tybg wrote:
If unit A is behind a defense line, in base contact with it, and unit B charges them and goes into base contact with the defense line, do they have to roll their charge as if they went through difficult terrain?

Yes. After all they have to swing over the wall.

Except there are no rules for "Swinging"

No rules for assaulting terrain either. You cannot assault an ADL. You can assault the models behind it which requires distance to and movement through the ADL which is difficult terrain.

nkelsch wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

Baktru wrote:

tybg wrote:
If unit A is behind a defense line, in base contact with it, and unit B charges them and goes into base contact with the defense line, do they have to roll their charge as if they went through difficult terrain?

Yes. After all they have to swing over the wall.

Except there are no rules for "Swinging"

No rules for assaulting terrain either. You cannot assault an ADL. You can assault the models behind it which requires distance to and movement through the ADL which is difficult terrain.

You are not assaulting the ADL, no one has even so much as mentioned assaulting the ADL.

The rules for Charging state that you have to make it into BTB with the target unit(closest model).
The rules for Walls and Fences stats that models in BTB with the wall and models within 2" are considered to be in BTB.
Therefore you measure to the wall(at a minimum) to be in t BTB with the enemy and thus make a successful charge.

^ This. It's simple really.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
We have houseruled that in order to not grand cover to everybody behind the wall as you shoot, you would need to be in a position to allow charges against the wall itself.

Not sure if that fixes all the problems, but it has fixed all the ones we have come across so far. :-P

I like this, its elegant

 Dozer Blades wrote:
^ This. It's simple really.

Except that you still have to roll Difficult terrain, as you may have to cross the wall in order to get into base contact with some models in most cases.

Check out p22 regarding Charging through Difficult Terrain. It subtlety, but significantly, alters the order of operations and calculation for this scenario.

It's poorly written in my opinion, and the text that they chose to Bold doesn't help. The trick is, you have to figure out if any of the models in the charging unit will have to pass through difficult terrain while following the rules for charge movement on p21 BEFORE you actually roll. It has to be before, be cause this determination is what you use to chose between rolling the normal charge 2d6 or rolling 3d6 drop highest.

Thus I could see a case for the B2B with battlefield debris = no test working, but only on conditions that would satisfy the charge rules on p21. This seems possible, but unlikely. The most likely scenario being a single model unit charging a single model unit.

Even if this was the case, I would still be hesitant to call it RAW or even RAI. The pro arguments have not been persuasive IMO.

It seems to boil down to, "does a model touching terrain, count as being in that terrain?" Off the top of my head, it seems like a yes.

Infantry touching Area Terrain get 5+ cover saves. Vehicles roll DTT the moment they touch DT.

If there is a specific rule or principle that says touching is not the same as being in terrain, please let us know. I think it would be helpful to the discussion.

I say that an assaulting unit has to make their assault with 3D6 minus the highest, but that the models do not have to move over the ADL if they can be placed in base contact with the ADL and within 2" of an enemy model in base contact with the ADL. This is important for models that take a Dangerous Terrain Test for assaulting through terrain (such as Bikes and models using their Thrust Move) will not have to take the test.