Anyone playing with Forgeworld Horus Heresy lists?

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**Apostasus**

Hey all,

I'm really interested in Forgeworld's recent supplement, The Horus Heresy Book 1 - Betrayal and am wondering if anyone has bought/reviewed it?

By way of explanation, my first introduction to the 40K universe was the Adeptus Titanicus game (an epic-scale game, using pretty much only Warlord class titans) and I then graduated to some of the actual early epic-scale 40K rules and only after that got into the (smaller scale?) 40K games... so the notion of running a Heresy Era Space Marine force is _really_ appealing (I've always been a fan of the Sons of Horus) as I like the idea of an army in rebellion, but without the (obvious) daemonic taint that pervades the Chaos marines codex.

And I also really like some of the FW models/concepts that I've seen from the models listed on their site (the old-style jump packs, scouts in power armor and presumably full SM stat-line (having scouts be the least experienced marines is, fluff wise, one of the harder things for me to wrap my brain around with 40K) and the breaching squads with those massive shields).

So, I suppose I'm pretty confident that the rules in the book used against other armies in the book ought to be relatively ballanced, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried 'em against "modern" forces from the official 40K codexes? My guess (based on some of the IA lists) is that they should be relatively equivalent in points values, if not somewhat underpowered,, but I really don't know...

Anyway, I'm hoping someone can offer some thoughts as to what I might expect if I show up at my FLGS with a Heresy-era list & army to take against the 'modern' codex lists that everyone else has. I know I'll need permission to run my list and I am very much not planning on min/maxing my choices (I have a real fondness for terminators, assault marines & such and a disinclination for tanks, land raiders and the like)... will giving up things like ATSKNF and combat squads in favor of some of the toys of the Heresy era (Cataphract terminators & contemplator Dreadnoughts) balance out or be an advantage to one side of the other?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts, and if (when) I try these things out, I'll be sure to report back.

**Bobthehero**

FW stance on the question, seems pretty clear to me, I heard the PH list were a bit weaker than C:SM

Spoiler:

Q: Are the armies and units in the Horus Heresy books by Forge World mean
t to be used in
games against regular Codex armies, such as say Grey Knights or Orks?
A:
While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the Codexes representing warf are in the 41 st Millennium, and this will remain the case. Designer’s Note: This means that while you are, of course, free to have fun and play games against your friends using any forces you like, and Horus Heresy forces will be broadly ‘a fair fight’ with Codex forces of the same scale, certain rules anomalies and inconsistencies may be thrown up that you have to deal with, although these should not seriously affect the game in most cases. (For example, certain units, such as those with the Stubborn spe cial rule are at a premium costing in Horus Heresy armies over their regular Codex counterparts, owing to the results of play testing within their own sphere.)

In terms of using Lords of War and the Primarchs, however, these are definitely not intended t o be used in standard Warhammer 40,000 games, but only in games where both sides use the Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart, and the specific provisions within, and in games of 2,000 points or greater.

Designer’s Note: So if, for example, you wanted to play a battle representing a narrative where the Sons of Horus Legion fought Orks or Eldar during the Great Crusade, you could quite easily use those xenos forces’ Warhammer 40,000 Codexes (possibly house-ruled to accommodate larger squads) to proxy for their Heresy-era counterparts. In this case, however, both sides should be using the Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart, with the army’s own Apocalypse level units and flyers available as Lords of War entries following the guidelines found on page 184 of Betrayal.

**Dakkamite**

That FAQ is precisely why I love FW so much.

"Yep, go for it, have fun, and if the rules don't match up perfectly, change them a bit rather than throwing a fit"

**Quintinus**

Bobthehero wrote:
FW stance on the question, seems pretty clear to me, I heard the PH list were a bit weaker than C:SM

The only reason I can think that they're weaker is because Tac squads can't have special weapons but that's it. World Eater tacticals are absolutely brutal and wipe the floor with anything that I can think of for the same cost. I mean for 250 pts you have 20 dudes with bolt pistols+chainaxes. Khorne Berzerkers are way worse.

**ZebioLizard2**

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
FW stance on the question, seems pretty clear to me, I heard the PH list were a bit weaker than C:SM

The only reason I can think that they're weaker is because Tac squads can't have special weapons but that's it. World Eater tacticals are absolutely brutal and wipe the floor with anything that I can think of for the same cost. I mean for 250 pts you have 20 dudes with bolt pistols+chainaxes. Khorne Berzerkers are way worse.

Yeah but Khorne Berzerkers are just horrible, but you also forget that the Horus Heresy list doesn't have that important SM distinction.

It does not have And They Shall Know No Fear. That is why it is far weaker.

Not to mention it is harder to spam, a units startup cost is far bigger then if you take one squad and max it out. Thus you'll be running bigger units yes, but you won't have as many auxiliary items on your list.

Plus you'll be foot sloggin', which while an alright tactic for the HH lists, opens you up to alot of pain if you fight something like Necrons, the list is mostly harder to counter because it's uncommon, most don't expect a horde of 3+ because there's no army that can really do it effectively.

**hisdudeness**

I have played quite a few 30K vs 40K games and have had no major issues. I win just as many as I lose and have not had any only complain that they would never play a game against me. The main issue with 30k lists is that they are not very good below 2000, with the sweet spot being around 2500.

The major weakness is that 30k lists are geared toward fighting other power armored armies and do not have some of the tricks to handle non-power armored armies that the codex marines have.

I've seen IG and Tau have a rough time until they pull out tanks. Daemons are troublesome. Chaos marines can be a pain. Frankly, 30k lists have no real end all advantage and once a 40k players fights against your list a few times they will change tactics and things will even out...just like any other new "codex" being released.