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Hey guys

New here and just after some advice on brushes.

Currently using army painter and citadel but finding they are not holding their point.

I keep paint out of fennel etc. I've heard Windsor newtons are good but expensive so just after some options.

Windsor and Newton are probably the best ones you can buy i use Mine Now for 2 years and they still got their Perfect shape. Dont vorher Brush cleaner and brush Soap to extend their durability... Just normal water isnt enough

cheers for the advice....what sizes do you recommend?

thanks

Windsor & Newton, Raphael are both great brushes, a size 0 or 1 are all you really need as they hold a lot of paint and restain their points very well.

That being said, you have to maintain your brushes. Get some masters and clean your brushes after every use. Don't use hot water as it can soften and melt the glue inside the ferule.

If you maintain your brushes you should be able to keep using them for years. Heck i even managed to keep an army painter brush for over a year before I switched to Raphael 8404s.

Winsor and Newton Series 7 are excelent, but potentially the most expensive you will come across. (you get what you pay for in this instance)
http://www.artsupplies.co.uk/item-winsor-&-newton-series-7-brush-set-(4).htm
this set is a nice deal, with a saving on buying the 4 individually... but buying seperatly I might get a 00size instead of the 3
I've got one of these sets and theyre damn fine brushes, cant fault them except the hurt on the wallet

Another great option is Rosemary & Co series 33;
http://www.rosemaryandco.com/watercolour-brushes/pure-kolinsky-sable/pure-kolinsky-pointed
Theres a fair bit cheaper than W&N, I find pricewise they compare to citadel, but Quality wise Oh Boy are citadel crap in comparison!! Not quite as good as the W&N series 7's but half the price? yes please give me 2.
They're perfectly good brushes made from high quality hair, I use them as my every day brushes, and get the W&N out for something special.
I also use Rosemary and Co Masters Choice for drybrushes.
http://www.rosemaryandco.com/watercolour-brushes/masters-choice/masters-choice-flats
Theyre supposed to be mongoose hair, but have been transitioning into badger hair (I think) because of animal protection laws being put in place where they get the hair from.

For sizes, with a really good brush it *doesnt matter* what size... even a size 6 will come to the same awesome point that a size 0 can, its more about what feels comfortable and how much paint you need to be loading into the brush, I cant see you needing much more than a 2 or a 3 for base coating or heavy washes, a huge one would be nice for vehicles but.. very expensive (kollinsky sable is gram for gram 3 times the price of gold according to rosemary and co!!) and not as good as an airbrush. a size 0 or a 1 is a good work horse, if the citadel standard brush is a little larger than you might like, get a 0 if you think a little bigger would be nicer get a 1.
00 or 000 for detailing, not strictly necessary as the 0 and 1 have ace points anyway, but something that isn't used for rougher techniques might retain the point much longer.
I would avoid doing things like drybrushing with these, not because it wont work well.. it would work amazingly. But it will quickly ruin a very nice and very expensive brush.

The W&N brushes aren't really all that expensive unless the UK prices are considerably higher than what we pay on this side of the pond. You can get all the brushes you really need for $40 US. With proper use and care they outlast the Army Painter and Citadel brushes by enough that they end up cheaper over the long run. If you look at them as an investment in the proper tools and take care of your tools rather than something cheap that's intended to be used up and thrown out, they make much more economic sense.

I do most of my work with a 0, and I have a 2/0 and 3/0 handy. I also have about the same variety in Raphael 8404 adding in a 2 and a 6/0 just in case. Can't say that I've ever used either of those and I've had them for probably 5 years.

helotaxi wrote:
The W&N brushes aren't really all that expensive unless the UK prices are considerably higher than what we pay on this side of the pond. You can get all the brushes you really need for $40 US. With proper use and care they outlast the Army Painter and Citadel brushes by enough that they end up cheaper over the long run. If you look at them as an investment in the proper tools and take care of your tools rather than something cheap that's intended to be used up and thrown out, they make much more economic sense.

While I agree with you on saying they arent *that* expensive, I don't know if I've ever seen a kollinsky sable brush that costs more? I'm sure the Queen of England's set cost much much more with its ivory handles and gold plated ferrules (the series 7 was made for the queen to water colour with lol)
If you look at anything above a size 4 or 6, Kollinsky sable hairs really do start to break the bank. You might pay £200 for a size 12 or 14

I love Amry painter brushes the larger triangular Handles are comfy for someone who has large hands like my self. But as you say. the points dont last long at all. My so called Psycho detail brushes Lasted about a month before they go to hell. And I like your self am also looking for a decent set of brushes.

I switched from cheapies to Winsor and Newton Series 7 a few months ago.

Best. Hobby. Investment. Ever.

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I seem to recall being told that GW used to actually use Windsor & Newton as their supplier, back when the handles were red (which was some years back)

If thats true I would imagine they were comparible to the 'Artists Water Colour Sable' Range, which work okay, I tryed one before I switched to Series 7's it didnt last much more than 6weeks. While the Series 7 are as good as new a year later.
You do need to take propper care of them though, some brush soap preserver/cleaner is essential when purchasing brushes made of natrual hairs. And I can think of no hair type more worth looking after than Kollinsky Sables.

Recently I'm finding myself using a Rosemary and Co 00 size series 33 kollinsky sable for detailing work, its performing for me just about the same as the Citadel 'Eavy Metal detail brush that came with that set of edge paints.

HairySticks wrote:

helotaxi wrote:
The W&N brushes aren't really all that expensive unless the UK prices are considerably higher than what we pay on this side of the pond. You can get all the brushes you really need for $40 US. With proper use and care they outlast the Army Painter and Citadel brushes by enough that they end up cheaper over the long run. If you look at them as an investment in the proper tools and take care of your tools rather than something cheap that's intended to be used up and thrown out, they make much more economic sense.

While I agree with you on saying they arent *that* expensive, I don't know if I've ever seen a kollinsky sable brush that costs more? I'm sure the Queen of England's set cost much much more with its ivory handles and gold plated ferrules (the series 7 was made for the queen to water colour with lol)
If you look at anything above a size 4 or 6, Kollinsky sable hairs really do start to break the bank. You might pay £200 for a size 12 or 14

Blick brand Master Kolinsky Sable size 0 brush (my actual workhorse brush for the last several years) $9.34.

W&N Series 7 Miniature size 0 $11.46 from Dick Blick

Raphael 8404 size 0 $12.35 also from Dick Blick

Not the most expensive and about the price of a cup of coffee more expensive than what I would consider the best "value" in a paintbrush.

On a side note since you brought it up, the Series 7 were modeled after the brushes custom made for the queen and the series was so named because a size 7 was her favorite brush. They as well as all the brushes that we typically use are designed and marketed as artists' watercolor brushes. They just happen to be very suitable for our purposes.

ETA I can't imagine a real use for a brush bigger than a size 2 painting minis and even that size is only $13.25 in a Series 7 Miniature and $16.87 in a Raphael. If paying that for an essential tool for the hobby makes you balk, how do you justify the cost of the minis themselves?

helotaxi wrote:


Blick brand Master Kolinsky Sable size 0 brush (my actual workhorse brush for the last several years) $9.34.

W&N Series 7 Miniature size 0 $11.46 from Dick Blick

Raphael 8404 size 0 $12.35 also from Dick Blick

Not the most expensive and about the price of a cup of coffee more expensive than what I would consider the best "value" in a paintbrush.

On a side note since you brought it up, the Series 7 were modeled after the brushes custom made for the queen and the series was so named because a size 7 was her favorite brush. They as well as all the brushes that we typically use are designed and marketed as artists' watercolor brushes. They just happen to be very suitable for our purposes.

ETA I can't imagine a real use for a brush bigger than a size 2 painting minis and even that size is only $13.25 in a Series 7 Miniature and $16.87 in a Raphael. If paying that for an essential tool for the hobby makes you balk, how do you justify the cost of the minis themselves?

The art and crafts suppliers I use locally don't seem to carry Raphael brushes, So I was unaware of their price bracket, I hope they're as good as everyone seems to say they are (which I don't doubt at this point),
You seem to have the impression I'm trying to say they cost too much, I'm only expressing that they're at the top of of price ranges for brushes that we might buy for mini's. Compare the series 7 pricing (or indeed the slightly more expensive Raphaels) to that of all the other popular brush brands and you'l see what I'm saying, they're quite literally twice the price of any other brush of equivalent size. Now this is actually because the hair is so valuable... But Rosemary & Co can put out Kollinsky sables with quality rivaling W&N Series 7's for half the price. (I would say that the R&C brushes are maybe 75% as good as my series 7 ones, but for half the price ... I cant argue.
I've actually got both, I spend a fiendish amount of money on paint and brushes and airbrush accessories... It's a bit like crack for me!

Just thought people asking about brushes should be aware that they hold some of the highest pricing around, as that puts a lot of people off them when they're perceived as a rip off, they're quite the opposite.. almost a steal when you think that one of these top enders will outlast a box full of cheapies provided you can care for it.

oh... and the price of a cup of coffee?! whoa where the hell do you buy coffee? and does it come in buckets or something? seriously you'd actually pay over ten dollars for a coffee? is it the best damned coffee in the world? because that might be worth it.... not that I drink coffee personally I'm more of a tea person (English... so predictable I suppose)

Just to be clear... I'm not trying to say these kind of brushes are 'break the bank' expensive... but when compared with all the 'competition' they kind of are extortionate seeming and I wanted to explain that its justified - to an extend.. as said rosemary and co seem to be able to put out brushes at half the price and are a much much much smaller company. (...lol as if citadel actually compete with these ahhaa whole other league i know its funny! .... they do compare to the 'eavy metal brushes citadel put out though as they are actually Kollinsky sable, probably made by W&N tbh as GW and W&N are both British companies...theyre pretty local to each other for the logistics side of things)

I just did a fairly big supply order from Block and picked up my first 4 W&N series 7 brushes. I've got my company captain to paint as well as the Angron FW piece. So, they'll get a workout soon. I've got a bunch of the red handle citadel brushes left. They lasted quite a while (I've had long stints of non-hobbying). The red handle ones are on their last legs now... But when the blue handles came out... Those lasted just a few miniatures before they were good for nothing but spreading PVA. I've tried a number of the natural fiber brushes from craft stores and nothing has the combination of point retention, smooth glide, just enough snap back, and paint capacity. Which is why I decided to stop spending $4 a pop trying different brands and take the 7 series plunge.

HairySticks wrote:

oh... and the price of a cup of coffee?! whoa where the hell do you buy coffee? and does it come in buckets or something? seriously you'd actually pay over ten dollars for a coffee? is it the best damned coffee in the world? because that might be worth it.... not that I drink coffee personally I'm more of a tea person (English... so predictable I suppose)

I consider the Blick Master series the best value, so the difference is about $2. Most any coffee worth drinking is going to cost that.

I think that you and I are in agreement though that for the size brushes that we're talking about, there's no reason to complain about the price of a premium paintbrush. Even the most expensive ones are fairly cheap all things considered.

Oh, and I think that the Raphaels are pretty danged nice. I have several of both those and the Series 7 Minis.