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EDIT: I have made a great error in this post!

So I have a few space marine kits lying about, and a bunch of old models, that could use a repaint.

So I have a few chapters that I like the fluff and colour schemes for:

Scythes of the Emperor
Angels Sanguine

But I don't want to stick to one on its own, what I'm asking is, if chapters are under strength, I mean so low that they cannot rebuild, would they be seconded to another chapter?

EDIT: this above peace is incorrect, what I want to do is use blood angel bits on regular marines!

The scythes of the Emperor are very low on numbers, Less than 300 I think ( I may be wrong). What I'm saying is that this company of Scythes could have been broken up and sent to the aid of the Angels Sanguine, and such have been integrated but bare the Scythes original armour colours.

an Alternative is that they are a new chapter formed from the 40 or so Scythes sent to the death watch (after they have been discharged, they become the first company of the new chapter, which uses the Gene seed of the Blood angels)

I quite like this idea now, a chapter formed in the fires of defeat sounds cool!

Once upon a time remnents of broken chapters were rolled into the Deathwatch. That was the fate of the Scythes until they suddenly reappeared in Codex:Tau Empire artwork.

 DeffDred wrote:
Once upon a time remnents of broken chapters were rolled into the Deathwatch. That was the fate of the Scythes until they suddenly reappeared in Codex:Tau Empire artwork.

Indeed that was the case, and where is that piece of artwork could I ask?

300 isn't few enough for the Chapter to be disbanded, in all likelihood. They just need to enter a heavy recruiting phase and deploy cautiously and rarely.

For your army, you could always just have the two chapters working together in a combined-arms force, possibly as part of a Crusade. Or the Angels Sanguine could be repaying an ancient debt between the chapters by lending the Scythes the backbone of a force for a mission the Scythes need to carry out.

Yeah, less than 300 isn't enough for a chapter to be disbanded, although i don't think any chapter would likely merge with another chapter due to their own honour, tradition and history. I think if they were so reduced that they no longer could go on as an effective fighting force with no hope of rebuilding they'd go on a valiant last crusade or something.

If they are merged, it's usually with a chapter with very similar geneseed. Even then, it's a very rare event, like almost unheard of.
Angels Sanguine are Blood Angels successors, Scythes are Ultramarines, they wouldn't merge. You could do them as a joint task force though, using one as allies to the other, using C:BA and C:SM. If you wanted to use them both in one codex though just use each chapter as certain units so as not to cause confusion.
Your army, your rules though.

 The Deathless Host wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
Once upon a time remnents of broken chapters were rolled into the Deathwatch. That was the fate of the Scythes until they suddenly reappeared in Codex:Tau Empire artwork.

Indeed that was the case, and where is that piece of artwork could I ask?

The previous Tau Empire Codex. Pg. 15.

A chapter basically needs to be reduced to a dozen marines, lose all their apothecaries, and/or have their geneseed reserves destroyed to prevent them from rebuilding.

A better alternative is to have your army represent a crusade force of 2 chapters coming together to achieve a common goal.

 DeffDred wrote:

 The Deathless Host wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
Once upon a time remnents of broken chapters were rolled into the Deathwatch. That was the fate of the Scythes until they suddenly reappeared in Codex:Tau Empire artwork.

Indeed that was the case, and where is that piece of artwork could I ask?

The previous Tau Empire Codex. Pg. 15.

It is quite likely however that the picture represents a battle from the Damocles Gulf Crusade mentioned on the opposite page, which the Scythes of the Emperor participated in 250 years before being eaten by the Tyranids.

 Grey Templar wrote:
A better alternative is to have your army represent a crusade force of 2 chapters coming together to achieve a common goal.

This. I recall an instance where two different Chapters both had forces against a common threat, and took enough losses that they decided to merge their forces for the duration of the campaign. The units involved took some heraldry from the other Chapter in recognition of the cooperation and brotherhood this signified. IIRC one was an Imperial Fists successor - the other Chapter involved painted their gloves just like they did, and the IF successors painted on a badge of the other Chapter.

Can't remember the novel of the Crimson Fist...the one where their monastery literally got nuked by the orks.......Kantor had a choice I believe after the fight...go out in a blaze of glory or do the slow, long rebuild of his chapter. He did the rebuild being the Crimson Fist had major MAJOR history behind them.


I do not see why not for two chapters to merge together if both were understrength. Both chapters would have to be side lined to get use to each other fighting style, Chain of Command, building camaderie and trust, and developing a new custom thats acceptable to both.

 Jihadin wrote:
I do not see why not for two chapters to merge together if both were understrength. Both chapters would have to be side lined to get use to each other fighting style, Chain of Command, building camaderie and trust, and developing a new custom thats acceptable to both.

Space Marines, if they follow the Codex Astartes, will be pretty similar in fighting styles and chain of command. The bolter is the main weapon for everyone, be they Blood Angels, Ultramarines or Space Wolves. Codex Chapters have Captains, the SW have Great Wolves, but they both do the same thing. What they will differ on is heritage and customs. Each Chapter has their own heroes, their own history, their own victories and defeats to remember.

I really can't see two Chapters merging if either of them has any history at all. But I sure could see two understrength Chapters decide to help each other rebuild. If they open their recruiting grounds to the other there's a greater chance to find compatibe recruits, and they can help each other secure their areas of responsibility. Such a pact would also build strong bonds between them.

SerQuintus wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 The Deathless Host wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
Once upon a time remnents of broken chapters were rolled into the Deathwatch. That was the fate of the Scythes until they suddenly reappeared in Codex:Tau Empire artwork.

Indeed that was the case, and where is that piece of artwork could I ask?

The previous Tau Empire Codex. Pg. 15.

It is quite likely however that the picture represents a battle from the Damocles Gulf Crusade mentioned on the opposite page, which the Scythes of the Emperor participated in 250 years before being eaten by the Tyranids.

I never paid much attention to Imperial dates. I thought the Gulf War.... I mean.... Crusade involved splinter fleets from Hive Fleet Leviathan. Which would put it after Behemoth and Kraken.

Edit: Did a bit of research. "The negotiations were successful and the Imperial fleet withdrew from Tau space unmolested, primarily due to the impending approach of the Tyranid Hive Fleet Behemoth. Or, depending on the source, the Damocles Gulf Crusade was ended in 988.M41 due to the emergent threat of Hive Fleet Kraken. "

Guess I was wrong about the Hive Fleet but the date doesn't seem to matter as there are conflicting sources.

I'm just wondering did anyone look at the alternative option?

About the chapter formed from the marines sent to the death watch and after unbenownced to the other scythes forming a new secret chapter using the blood angels genestock? (Presumably they would not be able to use their own if it was a secret project)

 The Deathless Host wrote:
About the chapter formed from the marines sent to the death watch and after unbenownced to the other scythes forming a new secret chapter using the blood angels genestock? (Presumably they would not be able to use their own if it was a secret project)

Well, using veterans as the core of a newly formed Chapter is not an odd idea. It certainly makes more sense than having veteran IG officers train them. What do those know of power armor operations and space marine specific wargear, after all?

They do need officers and trainers, and some older marines to give them an idea of what it's like. The High Lords of Terra just don't usually mix geneseeds like that - if a Chapter is formed of Blood Angels (or successor) stock then they're usually also trained by marines of that same stock. If it happens for some really odd reason, like the veterans are so respected that they are given a chance to carry on their own traditions with different geneseed then I'd imagine their original geneseed would be culled and returned to a Chapter of that stock, or the AdMech stores.

But seeing how Ultramarines and their successors make up so much of the Space Marines already there's really no reason your Scythes wouldn't receive UM genestock or AdMech aid in regrowing geneseed if they're deemed worthy of refounding their Chapter. After all, the AdMech can and does grow the geneseed for a new founding by using slaves as "incubators" if that's the right word.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tiger_Claws#.UZyGcqKyAyg

Spetulhu wrote:

 The Deathless Host wrote:
About the chapter formed from the marines sent to the death watch and after unbenownced to the other scythes forming a new secret chapter using the blood angels genestock? (Presumably they would not be able to use their own if it was a secret project)

Well, using veterans as the core of a newly formed Chapter is not an odd idea. It certainly makes more sense than having veteran IG officers train them. What do those know of power armor operations and space marine specific wargear, after all?

They do need officers and trainers, and some older marines to give them an idea of what it's like. The High Lords of Terra just don't usually mix geneseeds like that - if a Chapter is formed of Blood Angels (or successor) stock then they're usually also trained by marines of that same stock. If it happens for some really odd reason, like the veterans are so respected that they are given a chance to carry on their own traditions with different geneseed then I'd imagine their original geneseed would be culled and returned to a Chapter of that stock, or the AdMech stores.

But seeing how Ultramarines and their successors make up so much of the Space Marines already there's really no reason your Scythes wouldn't receive UM genestock or AdMech aid in regrowing geneseed if they're deemed worthy of refounding their Chapter. After all, the AdMech can and does grow the geneseed for a new founding by using slaves as "incubators" if that's the right word.

Perhaps an experiment to see if multiple geneseeds can work in a single chapter?

 The Deathless Host wrote:
Perhaps an experiment to see if multiple geneseeds can work in a single chapter?

You already have the "cursed" 13th founding for that. Experiments were made, trying to iron out geneseed flaws or improve existing traits. And it all ended badly, with Chapters that either had to be put down, failed on their own or ended up under close Inquisition scrutiny.

Hmmm I'm stumped

When was the cursed founding?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And when were the scythes almost destroyed?

 The Deathless Host wrote:
Hmmm I'm stumped

When was the cursed founding?

In 998.M41, Explorator Magos Marco Pteronus lead an archeological expedition to the Dead World of Inculaba, discovering a long-lost Adeptus Mechanicus geno-lab. During excavation of the site it was discovered that buried deep within the rock of this barren world were secrets that had lain undiscovered for 5,000 standard years. Secrets regarding a Founding of the Space Marines sometimes referred to as the Cursed Founding. The 21st Founding was the largest Founding of Space Marine Chapters since the Second Founding following the Horus Heresy in the early 31st Millennium. It had taken place in the 36th Millennium shortly before the start of the Age of Apostasy. Upon further explorations of the site, it was discovered that the geno-lab was indeed the site of the secret project known as "Homo Sapiens Novus," where Mechanicus Genetors attempted to perfect and remove the existing, identified deficiencies in flawed Astartes gene-seed, and ultimately begin the production of new and improved Primarch-like Space Marines. But their project was doomed to failure as the Genetors proved far less skilled in the genetic sciences than the Emperor of Mankind, and their efforts resulted in the development of seriously flawed gene-seed that was used to craft the organ implants for the new Chapters.

A secret vid-log of the former project manager revealed the full extent of their failure. The most seriously afflicted Chapters exhibited spontaneous and extreme physical corruption, turning them into a race no longer human or sane. Most of the Space Marine Chapters Founded during this time eventually turned Traitor and swore themselves to Chaos or met a gruesome end at the hands of other Space Marine Chapters and the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus. Others developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strained the tolerance of the Inquisition and threatened the Chapter's survival. The Founding itself ended when one of its projects, already corrupted by Chaos, sent a signal through the Warp and alerted the vile Traitor Fabius Bile to its existence. Bile was a former Apothecary of the Emperor's Children Traitor Legion who served Chaos Undivided by seeking out new recruits for the Traitor Legions.

The Explorator team further discovered that there was a hidden laboratorium that contained three large incubation tanks with an enormous human male floating in amniotic fluid within each one. The physiology of these giants were similar to Space Marines, but the subjects were far larger than normal Astartes. Two of these tubes were obviously damaged, the fluid within cloudy and stagnant, but the third still appeared to be functioning. Autopsies were performed on two of the bodies while the revivification process was begun on the third. An agent of the Inquisition that had been inserted within the Adeptus Mechanicus some years ago reported the disturbing news of the discovery from the archaeological site on Inculaba. A Grey Knights team was dispatched to prevent the sacred technology of this site from falling into the wrong hands. But by the time they arrived, they found no trace of the Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator team and no sign of their vessel. The site was as bereft of life as a world stripped by the Tyranids. There were no bodies discovered and no evidence of any attackers. Astropaths detected a residual Warp trail, but were unable to discern its direction. The site was then bombed from orbit with Cyclonic Torpedoes and all record of it was expunged from the Imperial bureaucracy. The Inquisition fears that what was on this world is now gone, taken by the agents of Chaos, and that they will eventually rue the day that this cursed place was discovered anew.


From 40k Wiki.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Deathless Host wrote:
When were the scythes almost destroyed?

The Scythes of the Emperor are a Codex Astartes-compliant, Loyalist Chapter of Space Marines who are allegedly a Successor Chapter of the Ultramarines of the 25th Founding. The Scythes of the Emperor, along with their allies, the Lamenters Chapter, were virtually destroyed during the invasion of the Imperium of Man by the Tyranids' Hive Fleet Kraken.

Hive Fleet Kraken was the second major Tyranid Hive Fleet to invade the galaxy. It was responsible for the outbreak of the Second Tyrannic War, which began officially in 992.M41 and ended only after the Ultramarines Chapter of Space Marines successfully broke the back of the Tyranid invasion in Imperial space at the Battle of Ichar IV and the Eldar of Craftworld Iyanden successfully defended their home, at great cost, against the Tyranid horde.

ok thanks

No problem. I was curious about the Cursed Founding myself.

Hmmm just found this. Interesting.

from 40k wiki

Captain Cassios - Commander of the Scythes' lost 5th Company which disappeared in its entirety before Sotha fell to the Kraken. The Commander was discovered by Brother-Sergeant Tiresias' and his Salvation Team in a Sus-an Membrane-induced stasis aboard a dead Tyranid Hive Ship two years after the Salvation Teams were initially formed and dispatched.

Perhaps that's where the Tyranids were beginning to create the "black carapaced" Tyrant Guard.

I noticed that the Wiki has the older Scythe symbol. I prefer the new one with the Aquila betwixed the blades.

Edit: Can't spell this late/early.