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I was wondering if you can attach an IC without infiltrate to infiltrators in reserve during deployment.

If so can they then outflank?

Example would be Space Marin Captain and Scouts or Farseer and Pathfinders.

Thanks.

It's covered in the BRB FAQ I believe. Answer is no.

In reserves yes. On the table no.

Chrysis wrote:It's covered in the BRB FAQ I believe. Answer is no.

Can't find it in the FAQ, are you sure of your answer?

Happyjew wrote:In reserves yes. On the table no.

I am aware they can't on the table, that's why I didn't mention it. Can the unit outflank if deployed in reserve this way?

Yes, because the unit has permisison to outflank (conferred by the unit, as per the infiltrate rule) and you have specific permission to join ICs to units whil in reserve

I've heard people argue that as infiltrate doesn't confer to characters outflank conferred by infiltrate doesn't either is there any validity to that?

No, there is no validity to that. Infiltrate IS conferred to an IC - if only they could join the unit during the infiltrate step. While held together in reserve they most certainly have the infiltrate rule, which alllows them to Outflank

Thanks. That was what I was hoping for, but was really unsure about.

Actually it is not that cut and dry.

The Infiltrate Special rule states that

"Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept in reserve."


This quote indicates that any unit with the infiltrate special rule is always refered to as Infiltrators, regardless of whether or not they are Infiltrating on the table at the start of the game.

It also states that "An Independant Character without the Infiltrate Special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."

The choice to reserve a unit and join an IC to that reserved unit happens during Deployment. ICs cannot join Infiltrators during deployment.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if you read the Infiltrate rule, it states that units with the rule are deployed after other units. It makes no mention of a choice of infiltrating.

This suggests that the choice to outflank would happen at the same time as the choice to place them on the table.

Ahh here we are, this is the kind of comment I've seen before. As I was considering building an army built round putting ICs in such units I'm really interested in the legality of it.

Anyone got a counter argument for Breng?

Breng - you reserve instead of deploying.

Yes but it happens during deployment, at time period when the IC cannot join the unit.

Preparing Reserves
"When Deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units..."

"During Deployment, when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organiztion of his Reserves."

"First he must specify if any of his ICs are joining a unit."

All of this happens "During Deployment"

According to the Infiltrate Rule as shown above.

ICs cannot join Infiltrators "During Deployment"

If the infiltrate rules said, an IC cannot infiltrate with a unit if the IC lacks infiltrate, he could join and outflank. But he is not allowed to join them durning Deployment at all.

Huh. I was going to argue with you Breng77 but looking at the USR you seem to be right. Throughout the rules for this USR it also does as you say, and refers to units with the Infiltrate USR as "Infiltrators". The context is pretty clear to me: "Infiltrators" is the term used to describe any unit with a model with the "Infiltrate" USR.

From Page 38 of the BRB: "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed." So you can't even choose to deploy them normally. If the unit has the Infiltrate USR, they are always setup using the USR if they are put on the table. And of course, ICs are specifically forbidden from joining a unit of Infiltrators unless the IC also is an Infiltrator.

Kind of a big if subtle shift from how they worked in 5E. Makes Chooser of the Slain a little more entertaining as well.

So yea, unless your IC has Infiltrate you can't have them hook up with the Infiltrators, regardless if they are deployed normally or held in Reserve.

Yup, until recently I felt the other way as well, that as long as you were not infiltrating, it was ok. But began talking about it with others about the new Tau Dex and ICs outflanking with kroot, and more and more it seemed that this was not intended.

That said GW could just completely FAQ the whole thing the other way and I would not be surprised. It seems to me though that the intent is that ICs confer infiltrate to squads, but not the other way around.

Definitely seems to be the case. If your IC has Infiltrate and joins a unit that doesn't have Infiltrate, he's a single model in the unit with Infiltrate and now the whole unit can Infiltrate.

Makes the Master of Deception Warlord Trait from Codex: Chaos Space Marines more interesting for sure.

With the newer rules and FAQ's has the restriction from allowing Tyranid Primes to join Spore Pods or Outflank via Hive Commander with a unit been lifted?

They removed the no outflank, but not no Spod ride.

*sigh* Thanks Happy.

So seems they can't join. Fair enough. What about if an IC joins a unit without infiltrate and another IC with infiltrate joins that unit?

Heh, honestly there's no clear answer on that I'd say. HIWPI is the IC w/o Infiltrate joins the unit first, then the other IC joins and gives everyone Infiltrate. RAW I think is too unclear, but would lean more towards the IC w/o Infiltrate not being able to join. Could be wrong.

Interesting this has ended up converging in topic with the far sight bomb thread, but they seem to be coming to the opposite conclusion by RAW. That is that joining in such situations is possible. This really is a mess isn't it?

It is. Its muddy enough that you can take it either way RAW. After all, you choose the order in which things happen and an IC is a model of the unit the same as any other as long as he's joined to it. So RAW you could say Farsight joins his Bodyguard and Shadowstrike or whoever then joins too to give them all Infiltrate.

At the same time, you can argue that an IC without Infiltrate can't Infiltrate with a unit of Infiltrators, and that the IC rule (being more specific) trumps Farsight being a "model of the unit". Except you're trumping a rule with itself so it gets weird.

One more thing in this line. If an IC with infiltrate joins a unit without, can that unit be deployed by infiltrate?

No, because you can only join an IC to a unit by deploying it in coherency, which means the unit must already be on the table

Gah, you are correct. So an IC with Infiltrate is only useful for conferring Outflank or joining a unit of Infiltrators.

I'm going to side with Breng77 on this,

To me the word 'deployment' within the infiltrator rule is in relation to the phase of the same name, on page 121. Until the deployment phase is officially ended, that being turn 1, the independent character can not join a unit that contains the infiltration special rule. Given that you declare an independent character is joining the squad during the deployment phase, it would prevent you from doing so even in reserves.

It gets really fun when you look at the reserve though, as no limitation exists for joining an infiltrating Independent character to a non-infiltrating unit that is being held in reserves. By combining independent characters in just the right way you can end up granting outflank to some serious heavy weapons and just walking them right into the enemy lines.

Not kidding about that, I can fathom at least one build that would allow me to walk any outflanking unit right into their behind... assuming I don't blotch the reserve rolls and have enough points to pull it off.