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Thats ..right...I went there....since I been here All I ever seen was the scifi "vs". I think this one would get everyone thinking

Figure we use England, Scotland, and Ireland. Rome attacking. Empire defending

Rome launching from Calais to Dover. Shortest point. Use Dover as the main logistical hub for combat operations in Southern England. 1st Main Line of Resistence to be set Littlestone on the Sea, Ashford, Canterbury, and Herne Bay. Using the main roads of A2070, A28, A299 as the peremiter outline. Roman forces to start will be say......Twenty legions.

One Legion organization

The normal size of a legion in this period was 4,200 infantry, of which 3,000 was heavily armed and 1,200 velites (plus 200-300 cavalry). In times of emergency, a legion of 5,000 infantry could be levied, of which 3,800 would be heavy infantry.[34] However, Polybius and Livy also mention legions of 6,000 infantry.[8] This has led Roth to conclude that Republican legions were variable in size, depending on circumstances when they were raised.[37] The heavy infantry of the earlier legion was organised into 30 centuriae units of 100 men each. The subdivisions in the mid-republican period were called maniples (manipuli, from manus = "hand"). There were 10 maniples in each of the three lines that a legion was drawn up in for battle: hastati, principes and triarii, for a total of 30 maniples in each legion. The maniples of the front two lines contained twice as many men (120) as those in the rear line (60).[34] If the legion numbered 5,000 men, the maniples in the front lines were increased to 160 men each.[38] Membership of each line was determined by age-group: the hastati contained the younger men (up to 25 years old); the principes those in the 26-35 group; and the triarii the older men (36-46).[38]

Each maniple was commanded by 2 centurions (centuriones, literally "leaders of 100 men"), one senior (prior), one junior (posterior), who were elected by the unit's members.[39] Centurions were paid double the rate of their men (i.e. 4 obols, or two-thirds of a drachma per day).[36] Each centurion would then appoint a deputy (optio), whose role was to supervise the rear of the unit in action, while the centurions led from the front.[39] In addition, each maniple included 2 signiferi (standard-bearers), appointed by the centurions, and at least one tubicen (trumpeter).[25]

The presence of two centurions and two standard-bearers in each maniple has led many historians to assume that a maniple contained two centuriae, the basic unit of the earlier Roman army. In this scenario, the centuriae of the front two ranks would contain 60 men each.[40] But Polybius makes clear that the maniple was the smallest tactical unit in the army.[41] Furthermore, the sources are clear that a maniple possessed only one signum, or standard.[42] Indeed, signum was used as an alternative name for manipulus.[39] Thus, the role of the maniple's second signifer was presumably to act as a substitute for the first if the latter fell in combat.[43] This is how Polybius explains the presence of two centurions in each maniple, emphasizing that the senior one was in command of the maniple.[39] Furthermore, if each maniple contained two centuriae, the centuriae of the triarii would contain only 30 men each, improbably few for a unit that was nominally 100-strong. Thus, it is possible that centuriae did not exist in this period and were wholly replaced by maniples.

100K Legionaire combat troops.
Support cavalry troops is 300 riders. One to each legion
One Archer Legion of 17,600 to be divided between two legions. Additional 8800 archers to a legion


To support my logistic and resupply. I would have to throw in an additional 30 Cavalry unit and five more legions to secure the rear D

MR's or Military Roads aka Highway
A259 Littlestone on the sea
M20 to Ashford
A2 to Canterbury
A256 to A253 to A299 to Herne Bay
Supply behind the Main Line of Resistent will be using
A2070, A28, A291, A259

Julius Ceaser is the Commander
2nd in Command will be Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
They will accompany by one Pretorian Legion with an attachment of Imperial Horseman toal rider 720 cav troops
They will be located at Kingston south of Canterbury

Replacement units I'm pitching in eight legions, eight cavalry troops and four archer legions

Lympne will hold two legions, three cavalry troops and one archer legion
Stelling Minnis will hold two army legions, two cav troops and one archer legion
LitleBourne will hold two army legions, two cav troops one archer legion
Intersection of Thanet Way and Heart in Hand Way will hold two army legions one cav troops and one legion archer

Occupied territory I be using five roman legions recruited from slaves, Poorly equipped

Dover will be the main logistical FoB for the Roman force. Three roman legions (all garrison unit are rotated from frontline troops every 30 days. Swap over occurs at the replacement centers behind the lines. Same as the one roman archer legion and 6 cavalry units. There will be an equivalent of one Suppor legion that would make reapair weapon/armor, wagons, arrows, medical, veternarians, grain storage, timber, clohing, leather good, and whatever else I need to execute the war.

As for the indigs. Farmers will donate 80% of their crops, two cohorts from the security legion will supply the muscle to harvest as much as posible. Any crimes committed by any roman troops against the indigs. The victim family will witness the execution. If an improvement is needed on the farm then the labor and engineering expert is free. All goods from the guild that which can be used in the army will be brought at 10% depreciation

Dentured slaves will be brought in to mine for metal. So far off the top of my head. Who can match the Roman forces with Empire of Man.






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Once both sides are evenly matched up we can begin the battle. Use google map to have a overview of the land we be fighting over. We're using today map. It be easier

What era of technology does the Empire of Man get? Because that's what will answer this question, almost completely irrespective of tactics and deployments.

Your use of A roads implies the Romans are attacking a relatively modern Britain. Is that correct?

Personally I’d say if it’s pre 1850 I’d back the Romans. Even against a troops with muskets I’d say the Romans could close the distance of effective musket range (about 60 yards) quick enough to allow only one round of firing. Once it’s a matter of close quarters fighting the Romans would beat Redcoats without too many losses.

After rifling became commonplace it would become more complex, especially when breach loaders became standard issue. I’d say well disciplined British troops with Martini-Henry’s would probably be able to keep a Roman Legion at bay. But would still suffer should the Romans be able to close the gap.

Post 1900 I’d back the British no contest. The Romans would simply be cut to pieces and would probably be decimated by artillery before small arms even came into it.

There is also the small matter of the Romans getting past the Royal Navy in the first place, but that’s another debate.

 azazel the cat wrote:
What era of technology does the Empire of Man get? Because that's what will answer this question, almost completely irrespective of tactics and deployments.

I'm going to be stupid here. Whats the Empire of Man?

Warhammer Fantasy lol

Hmmmm a close run thing. The EoM inflights heavy losses with Artillery, longer range bows/crossbows and Heavy Cavalry.

The Romans ignore the losses and close the range (its only 24" after all), and start to inflict losses on the state troops and levies.

Then EoM rolls a 6 in the magic phase and turns 6d6 Legions into amoebas.

Karl Franz parties like its 2999.

 Jihadin wrote:
Warhammer Fantasy lol

Ok. Wiki had some novel about a space empire crossing a planet. Er...what?

Romans kick ass until someone throws a dragon at them...

Roman shields can stop crossbows it seems. Then how fast a reload on the crossbow compare to the roman archers behind the lines of roman heavy infantry.

What the range of the cannons and what's the reload time of them. Were talking the 6 barrel looking right?

Greaco-Roman ballista's had effective ranges of 200-300 meters (maximum ranges of 600-700 meters). Though they hurled stones. Yet they were powered by torsion springs which is better form of storing power than simple tension.

According to ancient western sources the longest range archers could shoot arrows were 450 meters and catapults, 650 meters.

The main advantage of catapults was not range, it was POWER. While an archer can impinge 50 kg of force in an arrow a ballista could shoot with a force of over 1 ton.

Since roman troops are stubborn as hell they auto pass "Deny the Witch"

Oh I see. I was thrown by the fact that you choose to use Britain as the battleground. It didn’t occur to me you where referring to the WFB ‘Empire’.

Am I right in thinking that the backbone of the Empire is a militia and that state troops/nobility are only a small number of the troops the Empire can field?

I’d say that the Romans have an advantage mainly because of the number of professional soldiers they can field. They would struggle against heavy troops/knights because Roman weaponry isn’t designed to kill men wearing that level of armour.

The effects of gunpowder wouldn’t actually be that great. The main advantage of Empire style handgun/Arquebus is that it’s much easier and quicker to train someone to use one than it is to train an archer, which requires a specific musculature that can take years to develop. Which is why bows and arrows became obsolete as weapons of warfare. In a battlefield situation a regiment of handguners wouldn’t necessarily be any more effective than the equivalent number of archers.

Probably less, actually. Archers have a much higher rate of fire than muskets.

1.Heavy Roman infantry Legion with cavalry and archers advances from Herne Bay to Faversham, builds fortification. Replacement legions, cavalry and archers supporting Herne bay moves to Canterbury and occupies Canterbury fortifications

2. Heavy Roman Infantry Legion with Cavalry and Archers from Canterbury advances and occupies Challock. Replacement Legions, cavalry, and archers advances and occupies Chilliam. Both construct fortifications

3. Roman Heavy Infantry Legions with Cavalry and Archers move from Ashford to Headcom. Replacement unit for them moves to Bethersden. Both organization construct fortification

4. Heavy Roman Infantry with Cavalry and Archers from Greatstone by the Sea moves to Sandhurst. Replacement unit moves Lympne to Rye. Both armies construct fortificaions

HQ units will move to and occupy Stilling Minnis

Logistical FoBs to establish at Folkestone and Ashfords. Serious Fortification being built ther. Ashfords will be secured by two roman heavy roman legions, a split roman archer legion (8800 archers) 4 roman cavalry unit. Folkesstone will held by 1 Heavy Roman Infantry Legion, Half a archer legion and 2 cav units

Forgot to mention. Weather will be a factor. One week to occupy and fortified expansion. Secure main lines of supplies to frontline units (using roads with direct access.) 3-4 weeks for supplies to build up before contemplating next advance.

Lets stick with land battles.

One Heavy Roman Infantry Legion arrives in Dover

Why weather is a factor. I'm going to pause this a bit and actually slam some units names down....battle group etc etc.....rain will be a pain for both sides...wet powder and wet bowstring...plus wet ballista and what not. That way whoever comes up with the Empire army can establish a line of defense agaist mine and we go from there

I (for the briefest of moments) thought it would start like this...

1) Call in Ordinatus
2) The End...

[quote=LuciusAR 528743 5650640 db0cf003e7db9592288d809665cfeb2a.jpg

I’d say that the Romans have an advantage mainly because of the number of professional soldiers they can field. They would struggle against heavy troops/knights because Roman weaponry isn’t designed to kill men wearing that level of armour.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I (for the briefest of moments) thought it would start like this...

1) Call in Ordinatus
2) The End...

It seems I'm not the only one that confused "Empire of Man" with "Imperium of Man". I was very confused. What in the world would roman legions do to Space Marines or Titan Legions?

I'd say it would be interesting if nothing else. I think that the Roman Empire is a much more formidable fighting force, but the Empire has access to weird technology and mythical creatures

You figure the Roman Legions would be use to facing some outlandish critters to....say elephants....flaming pigs....I can see a griffin prancing its way to the roman lines and get pinned with Pilium's...or pin cushioned from arrows....as for say magic fireballs....well its just another enemy catapult that fired and hit....Decimation punishment in the roman legion is a good motivator to stay in the line and fight

 Frazzled wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Warhammer Fantasy lol

Ok. Wiki had some novel about a space empire crossing a planet. Er...what?...

That's a John Ringo/David Weber series. Quite good. Though the Empire of Man is the Empire the Prince is from, not the focus of the book

Julius' Roman Legions were effective, disciplined combat troops. The Empire of Man consists of small plastic figurines that are frequently devestated by a single housecat, let alone thousands of armed fighting men.

 LuciusAR wrote:
Your use of A roads implies the Romans are attacking a relatively modern Britain. Is that correct?

Personally I’d say if it’s pre 1850 I’d back the Romans. Even against a troops with muskets I’d say the Romans could close the distance of effective musket range (about 60 yards) quick enough to allow only one round of firing. Once it’s a matter of close quarters fighting the Romans would beat Redcoats without too many losses.

Except the real issue, and the reason large, deep formations disappeared wasn't muskets, but cannons. Trying to assemble and form a deep line of battle while cannon rounds rip through the ranks was a recipe for disaster.


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 LuciusAR wrote:
The effects of gunpowder wouldn’t actually be that great. The main advantage of Empire style handgun/Arquebus is that it’s much easier and quicker to train someone to use one than it is to train an archer, which requires a specific musculature that can take years to develop. Which is why bows and arrows became obsolete as weapons of warfare. In a battlefield situation a regiment of handguners wouldn’t necessarily be any more effective than the equivalent number of archers.

The effect of handguns wouldn't be that great, but cannons sure would be.

And archers became obselete because cannons. The role of archers to disrupt enemy formations as they formed and force them to take the initiative was no longer required when cannons did that job much, much better.

I'd say that the Romans would be completely demoralised, and that not much fighting would actually happen.

Given the damage the first crude black powder weapons inflicted upon the morale of armies who knew such things existed, imagine what advanced black powder weaponry could do to an army that couldn't even imagine such things. That's before factoring in magic and other fantastical creations, too.

If we factor in magic, having your armour cook you alive, your weapons melt in your hands, fireballs tear through your ranks, lightning striking from the sky, your allies withering and crumbling, or crumpling dead from a single word... Generals would be the first to die; artillery pieces would collapse or be blasted apart; archers would fire wide or their arrows would be blown aside; anyone who tries to counter-attack could die one hundred ways and not one of them by sword or spear or arrow.

I'm going to say that the Romans would lose heart and rout before a significant number of them could die in fighting. Empire losses would be minimal, if not completely nonexistant.

Actual field line up for battle I would have to move the achers forward and scattered to concentrate on the artillery crew. I've no idea on range for the caster....I can see a dedicated Cav unit to get him or by chance a archer can snip him or her. Better yet. Fight in the rain. Making sure my archers maintain the bowlines with bees wax. I say the learning experience with dealing with cannons be an eye opener. Think the best way to handle that would be a slow withdraw backwards separating the infantry from the artillery and having the Roman cav outflank to destroy/smash the cannon wheels so they can be capture and study later. Whats the average size battery for the Empire? 6 tubes or four tubes to a unit. Also I'm willing to commit other Cav troops to go between the artillery lines and the infantry lines spreading Caltrops. Have my Stingers target leaders and use my catapult's throw a truckload of stones at the enemy advance.I be withdrawing backs to my emplacements fortification.

The range of an empire cannon would outrange anything the romans can send in to counter-fire, so expecting archers to get into range unscathed and in any shape to fight back would be a challenge. A caster would also be well protected; Empire spears would be troublesome for roman cavalry looking to try and pick off any artillery or casters, as would empire halberds and crossbows. For anything more annoying, Outriders could be used with great efficiency.

Fighting in the rain would lessen the power of any damp black powder, but it would still be extremely effective. Bear in mind, however, that casters could completely remove the effects of rain from the Empire troops, whilst making it rain harder upon the roman forces, blocking vision and muddying ground.

Any slow withdraw manoeuvres could be rendered pointless by the Empire simply retreating back themselves. Outriders could then be launched to harass the flanks of the retreating roman army, and perhaps even a mounted caster could be sent along to hurry them up or sow more panic.

The Empire outranges the Romans by a significant amount, their casters add valuable support, their level of technology renders roman armour obsolete, and their weaponry means that someone can be given a handgun or crossbow, pointed at a target, and they can shoot it with just as much accuracy as a trained archer. If we factor in the amount of destruction helstorm rockets or mortars would cause against the tight ranks of romans, then we're looking at the Empire being able to devastate entire columns at a time.

We also haven't factored in things like the Siege Tank. Even in WHFB things struggle to deal with those; I can't imagine the romans would fare any better.

Roman fortifications are also rendered obsolete by gunpowder. Nothing they can construct in a hurry can't be brought low by cannons quickly and from a distance.

DAmn Avatar...you owned the thread

Turn up with/as a Lord on Griffon.

Tell the Roman legions you were sent by Jupiter and they are tresspassing on holy ground. They will all be eaten by demons (no 'a') and their souls will be fed to suffer in Tartarus unless they hand over thier commanders for punishment and get back in their boats,

Romans are cynical lot, but one look at a griffon flying about, especially if you bring the Ruby Ring of Ruin for dramatic effect.....Invasion over.

Romans - competent, ruthless military machine
Empire - rabble, disorganized, wizards, dragons, ogre mercenaries, magic items.

I think the Empire would win just because of the tricks they have available to them.

Its all fun and games at first....till the first greek fire pot gets launched

 Jihadin wrote:
Its all fun and games at first....till the first greek fire pot gets launched

And the Empire retaliates with mortar fire, and it gets really, really sad. All those fine, disciplined Roman soldiers just slaughtered in a foolish attack on a tech base a thousand years greater than their own.

 sebster wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Its all fun and games at first....till the first greek fire pot gets launched

And the Empire retaliates with mortar fire, and it gets really, really sad. All those fine, disciplined Roman soldiers just slaughtered in a foolish attack on a tech base a thousand years greater than their own.

The technology isnt even the main issue, Romans could proably handel a rennaisance army after they got over the shock. The trouble is the magic. Frankly I doubt the Romans would have able to deal with an orc or elf army of similar value.

 Orlanth wrote:
The technology isnt even the main issue, Romans could proably handel a rennaisance army after they got over the shock. The trouble is the magic. Frankly I doubt the Romans would have able to deal with an orc or elf army of similar value.

As disciplined and well organised as the Romans were, I'm not sure they would have coped with a properly organised and large rennaisance army. And I think the bigger point is that the Empire represents a level of technology that is at least at the very end of the renaissance, and more likely somewhere in the middle of the mercantilist/industrious era.

I mean, the Empire have mortars usable in the field, not just for siege. And they've got black powder weapons capable of repeat fire. And a tank. That puts them somewhere in the 17th century, at least. And it all makes the success of an army relying on conventional close formation infantry, supplemented by cavalry and some skirmishes really unlikely. Even for an army with the discipline of the Roman Legions.

 Orlanth wrote:
Frankly I doubt the Romans would have able to deal with an orc or elf army of similar value.

I'm going to be daydreaming about the visuals this would entail for pretty much the rest of the day.

What size caliber of ball on the musket though....mixture of smooth bore or grooved? they have mini? or ball or did they do the Irish BDE from the American Civil War and went in with smooth bore but loaded with ball and shot. I think the romans would overcome their fear of the powder weapons and incorporate it into future tactical and strategic? Actually turning thoughts here on it. Sorcery though that be iffy. Off the top of my head is to pin point the sorcerer and slam as many cav, arrows and legionaires at him/her....or lay a sniper figuring the sorcerer has to have a clear line of sight...that be iffy to. Can the romans hire out?