Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Librarians have powers and are dirt cheap (in DA at least), chaplains give re-rolls...no need to take a captain or chapter master at present. What can be done to fix them?

Codex: Space Marines does it best when you want to take a biker army.

Really, they need to give Captains the ability to change how the army plays. A captain of the 8th Company should be able to take Assault Marines as troops (for an example for Codex: Space Marines). Or a Captain of the 1st, that makes Terminators Scoring. (but not troops, that should still be a DA thing.)

Reduce cost of Captain to 55. Chapter master 80 pts. Problem Solved!

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Reduce cost of Captain to 55. Chapter master 80 pts. Problem Solved!

That doesn't solve the problem. The problem isn't the point cost, it's that the only thing a captain (other than bike captains) or chapter master adds to your army is a single melee character that isn't even very good at the one thing it's able to do. A small point decrease (don't forget the cost of equipping them which is the real point sink) doesn't change the problem that it's still adding nothing to your army while a support HQ contributes a lot. The only thing your proposal would do is give a cheap option to fill the HQ slot in a low-point game where you don't really care what your HQ does as long as it's as cheap as possible so you can bring a Land Raider in a 500 point game.

I'd like to see a return of rites of battle, where your whole army could use your captain's leadership. This would turn him into a force multiplier, rather then just a beatstick.

You'd have the chaplain for CC multiplier
Librarian for psychic trick buffs
and captain for Ld boosts.
That leaves the MotF with his bolster and repair rules to help boost the army, which is something.

That would mean marines use captains to shore themselves up, like they need help.

Really, they need to give Captains the ability to change how the army plays. A captain of the 8th Company should be able to take Assault Marines as troops (for an example for Codex: Space Marines). Or a Captain of the 1st, that makes Terminators Scoring. (but not troops, that should still be a DA thing.)

This comes up a lot. I do not think anyone has ever made real connections for either of two assumptions:

# the connection between being the captain of a company of assault squads and wearing a jump pack, and

# being the assault company and using assault squads as troops.

These connections are not given, they are actually tenuous. I do not think that denying a need for understanding is at all a strong position.

What needs to happen for Captains to be taken is to allow them to do something for their army aside from being a mediocre combat character. I'm warming up to generic GK Grand Masters because of their Grand Strategy ability -- if SM Captains/Company Masters/Chapter Masters/etc had little abilities like that, to tactically vary the army, then we might see them taken over librarians. A lot of the SM Special Characters do stuff like this, in the form of Chapter tactics, but generic captains/chapter masters don't get anything. Something like a weakened version of Zahndrekh's ability to give a unit a particular special rule for a turn could work.

Ability to use orbital bombardment every turn...

 Satan's Little Helper wrote:
Ability to use orbital bombardment every turn...

1d4chan wrote:Though not the most effective of lists, it is particularly hilarious and surprisingly fluffy to declare Exterminatus on large table games of 40k. The general gist is to simply stock up on as many large blast templates fired from off table as possible, whether via army list or stratagems. One relatively simple list is to simply take a Grey Knights army, field a single Bro-Capt. or Grand Master with an orbital Strike Relay, Karamazov (who also has one) and two troop choices (if you're playing a regular game -- if you're playing Apocalypse, you can skip the troops) Then cram in as many Techmarines as you can, give them all Orbital Strike Relays and watch the bombs drop. For the average 3000 point game, you can get Krazypants off and 20 bare-bones techies with the relays. that's 21 Strength 10 AP1 pie-plates smashing down on your opponents Baneblades, Warhounds and other special hard-as-balls to kill gak your opponents have! Also great for swarm-busting (the relays can fire D3 pieplates each per guy but at Strength 6). Picture Krazypantsoff standing on a hilltop, pointing at buildings and going "Bang.", then watching them all blow up. Of course, if the Inquisitor dies, you're fethed. So maybe just camp him in cover. But that's only if you're lame.
For those of you with enough money to field the Horus Heresy army list from Forge World, Horus can call down an orbital strike with infinite range and S10 AP1 from anywhere on the map. Now you can reenact the Istvaan III atrocities yourself!
For an Apocalypse game you can also field an exterminatus guard force. All you need is: n * 6 guardsmen (one with a vox). The list is fairly simple - Just field as many Company Command Squads with nothing but Master of Ordinance and fire away (for a 3k game its almost 38 s9 ap3 blasts a turn) Don't forget to field some epic(troll) music to laugh at your opponents face, and after the battle proceed with knocking the table down to finish with a speech gritty nuff to make Sturnn himself proud.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Reduce cost of Captain to 55. Chapter master 80 pts. Problem Solved!

Hahaha, you want to make SM captains cheaper than SoB canonesses?

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

i agree, simple drop in points, becuase sometimes it;s nice to have cheap HQ.

Drop the points a bit, give him fearless and probably the option to make bikes/assault marines troops so mostly like Chaos Lords which work quite fine imho.

This may not the most creative suggestion but I think it would work.

 Satan's Little Helper wrote:
Ability to use orbital bombardment every turn...

Yeah, because two Chapter Masters being able to drop down a STR10 AP1 large blast every turn wouldn't be broken or anything...



~Vryce

Grey Knights can get up to 5 multi profile bombardments a turn in a regular 1500 points list.

While I would enjoy having an HQ (any HQ, really) under 100 points, I think the captains (and their big brothers the chapter masters) are just fine the way they are. They are, as mentioned, largely just beatsticks, but they are more powerful and come with better options than any of the support HQs. In addition, both of them unlock a unit option that isn't too bad. I realize you can't just fill up an FOC with them, but Command Squads and Honor Guard are actually useful if you take the time to weigh their strengths and weaknesses and utilize them in a tactically sound manner. And of course, the captain unlocks the biker army, which is pretty sweet all by itself.

Frequently, one of the unique captains will be preferable, but I think that's just one of the downsides to the 'chapter tactics' system of hero characters representing the different armies. And after considering the positive aspects of that change, I think the balance is for the better. Captains still have their place, it's just that they aren't the go-to for every army, every time.

That's just my opinion, of course, I could be wrong.

 Jimsolo wrote:
While I would enjoy having an HQ (any HQ, really) under 100 points, I think the captains (and their big brothers the chapter masters) are just fine the way they are. ... Captains still have their place, it's just that they aren't the go-to for every army, every time.

The big problem is that, as they are, they don't really actually have a place in any Space Marine competitive list.

Let's compare them to Chaos Lords, who are taken in large quantities, to see why Captains and their like aren't taken at all.

Chaos Lords lose the Iron Halo standard (now optional), but go down all the way to 65 points base. This is the same points reduction that the new DA Company Masters get, 100 down to 90, except that the Company Master must take an Iron Halo, which means some points inefficiency if you're also taking a Storm Shield. The amazingly low starting price for the Chaos Lord is part of what makes them used.

The second factor that makes Chaos Lords used in Competitive Lists is their actual combat ability. Note that, in most cases, their ability is no better than a Captain, and you typically don't see Chaos Lords in this capacity. The equipment that you see are generally things like the Axe of Blind Fury, or the Burning Brand of Skalathrax. The Axe makes the Lord into an real threat in combat, while the Brand gives the Lord ranged power that very few other HQ units get aside from a Tau Shas'o. Given that basically any duelist character is going to be measured up against a Captain, and is typically taken only if they slaughter a captain, you can see why Captains and Chapter Masters are not used for good CC power.

Lastly, and this is the kicker, Chaos Lords are used to unlock Troops Choices. If you want Plague Marines, you need to spend either a Land Raider's cost in getting Typhus, or take a Nurgle Lord. If you want Noise Marines, you need a Slaanesh Lord. The need for cult units as troops makes people take Chaos Lords, and then outfit them. The only thing that a Captain can do with that is in the C:SM codex, with a Biker Captain. Blood Angels Captains don't do this, neither do DA Company Masters (other than the command squads). Even then, it's just for bikers, all the power armor foot captains that people have laying around don't do jack squat for your army, either in unlocking troops, buffing your army, or giving you increased tactical options.

I feel that SM Captains/Company Masters/Chapter Masters need to have something more than the presumed 10 point reduction seen in the DA codex. As they are, they have no place in a competitive list, when one could take Librarians or Special Characters. Why would one take a Company Master in TDA when one could take Belial? Why on a Bike when you've got Sammael? Why on foot and not Azrael? Why not a Divination Librarian? Why take a Captain when you can take Pedro Kantor, or Vulkan He'stan, or a Librarian with Gate of Infinity and Null Zone? Why take a BA Captain when you can take Mephiston? Each of these offers either equal combat ability + buffs/unlocks/tactics, or reasonable combat ability + psychic powers.

Unless non-special Character, non-Librarian SM HQs get buffs in this way, they'll generally not be seen. That's sad, as there are a lot of wonderful generic Captain and Chapter Master models out there, and it's a shame that none of them will see a competitive table other than counts-as.