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So, as everyone is no doubt aware the Carnifex has been left in the dirt in recent years, largely because the Tervigon and Trygon are simply better monstrous creatures at much better value per point. It is possible to get some good mileage out of a dakkafex or three, especially in a Spore, but otherwise they are just not very attractive to players. I've been mulling over what could be done, and have come up with the following:

Note* The Living Battering Ram revision and Screamer-killer rules are the parts I like most, giving it that original Carnifex "hammer unit" flavour.

Tyranid Carnifex Brood

Unit Composition: 1-3 Carnifexes

Cost: 120 points per Carnifex

Profile:

WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 10
T: 6
W: 4
I: 2
A: 4
Ld: 7
Sv: 3+

Unit Type: Monstrous Creature:

Weapons and Biomorphs: Bonded Exoskeleton, Scything Talons (two sets)

Special Rules:
- Instinctive Behaviour – Feed
- Fearless
- Living Battering Ram

Dedicated Transport: If the brood consists of only a single Carnifex, it may take a Mycetic Spore

Options: (note: all Carnifexes in the brood must take the same options)

Replace any set of Scything Talons with:
- Crushing Claws*, 20 points per model
- Stranglethorn Cannon**, 20 points per model
- Heavy Venom Cannon**, 20 points per model
- Twin-linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms, 20 points per model
- Twin-linked Deathspitters with Deathscream Grubs***, 20 points per model

Alternatively, each Carnifex may be upgraded to a Screamer-killer (see below) at 25 points per model (a Screamer-killer may not replace it’s Scything Talons)

Take any of the following:
- Frag Spines, 5 points per model
- Toxin Sacks, 5 points per model
- Regeneration, 20 points per model
- Enhanced Senses****, 10 points per model
- Toxic Miasma, 10 points
- Acid Blood, 10 points

Notes:
*A Carnifex that takes two sets of Crushing Claws gains 2D3 additional attacks instead of the usual D3.
**A Carnifex that takes two Stranglethorn Cannons or two Heavy Venom Cannons counts as having one twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon or Heavy Venom Cannon respectively.
***A Deathspitter with Deathscream Grubs is Strength 8 and AP4.
****A Carnifex with Enhanced Senses gains the Skyfire Special Rule.

Unit-specific Special Rules:

Living Battering Ram: A Carnifex is a living engine of destruction, combining alien agility with incredible strength and terrifying mass to bodily smash prey into the ground. When a Carnifex assaults, it inflicts a Hammer of Wrath attack on each enemy model in base to base contact with it, instead of the one Hammer of Wrath attack it would normally inflict.

Screamer-killer Carnifex: The Screamer-killer is a legendary and lethal strain of Carnifex known and feared for a particularly deadly combination of mutations and Biomorphs. A Screamer-killer Carnifex has the Feel No Pain and Rampage Special Rules, and is able to fire Bio-plasma as a shooting attack (see below)
Bio-plasma
Range: 18”, Strength: 7, AP: 2, Type: Assault 1, Blast

Let the carnifex get it's 2+ save back as an option. Then we'll talk.

Notes:
**A Carnifex that takes two Stranglethorn Cannons or two Heavy Venom Cannons counts as having one twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon or Heavy Venom Cannon respectively.

No why? That's silly. Let em have both :/

 chrisrawr wrote:
Notes:
**A Carnifex that takes two Stranglethorn Cannons or two Heavy Venom Cannons counts as having one twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon or Heavy Venom Cannon respectively.

No why? That's silly. Let em have both :/

Because by writ of Cruddace we can't have nice things.

 Kain wrote:

 chrisrawr wrote:
Notes:
**A Carnifex that takes two Stranglethorn Cannons or two Heavy Venom Cannons counts as having one twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon or Heavy Venom Cannon respectively.

No why? That's silly. Let em have both :/

Because by writ of Cruddace we can't have nice things.

If the point of this thread is to fix the carnifex, then why would you be guided by the supposed destroyer of the nids?

Twin-linking these would be a bit too powerful. Mainly, a carnifex needs more wounds and better saves to be the nasty tank it used to be.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 chrisrawr wrote:
Notes:
**A Carnifex that takes two Stranglethorn Cannons or two Heavy Venom Cannons counts as having one twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon or Heavy Venom Cannon respectively.

No why? That's silly. Let em have both :/

Because by writ of Cruddace we can't have nice things.

If the point of this thread is to fix the carnifex, then why would you be guided by the supposed destroyer of the nids?

Twin-linking these would be a bit too powerful. Mainly, a carnifex needs more wounds and better saves to be the nasty tank it used to be.

It's a joke silly.

And twin-linking blast weapons is powerful now?

I think it needs either T7 or a 2+ armor save.

 McNinja wrote:
I think it needs either T7 or a 2+ armor save.

Or options to take them.

Mutations and biomorphs man.

Give it D3+1 Hammer of Wrath hits at AP5 maybe but have it strike at Intiative 1?

THAT Would be a better Battering Ram imo.

Tyranid Carnifex Brood

Unit Composition: 1-3 Carnifexes

Cost: 130 points per Carnifex

Profile:

WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 9
T: 6
W: 4
I: 2
A: 4
Ld: 7
Sv: 3+

Unit Type: Monstrous Creature:

Weapons and Biomorphs: Bonded Exoskeleton, Scything Talons (two sets)

Special Rules:
- Instinctive Behaviour – Feed
- Fearless
- Living Battering Ram

Dedicated Transport: If the brood consists of only a single Carnifex, it may take a Mycetic Spore

Options: (note: all Carnifexes in the brood must take the same options)

Replace any set of Scything Talons with:
- Crushing Claws*, 20 points per model
- Stranglethorn Cannon**, 20 points per model
- Heavy Venom Cannon**, 20 points per model
- Twin-linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms, 20 points per model
- Twin-linked Deathspitters with Deathscream Grubs***, 20 points per model

Alternatively, each Carnifex may be upgraded to a Screamer-killer (see below) at 25 points per model (a Screamer-killer may not replace it’s Scything Talons)

Take any of the following:
- Frag Spines, 5 points per model
- Toxin Sacks, 5 points per model
- Regeneration, 20 points per model
- Enhanced Senses****, 10 points per model
- Toxic Miasma, 10 points
- Acid Blood, 10 points
- Berserk Strength (Strength 10), 20 points
- Armored Shell, 25 points
- Impenetrable Hide (Toughness 7), 45 points

Notes:
*A Carnifex that takes two sets of Crushing Claws gains 2D3 additional attacks instead of the usual D3.
** If a Carnifex takes two of these, they can either be twin-linked for 30 points or two separate weapons at the listed cost.
***A Deathspitter with Deathscream Grubs is Strength 8 and AP4.
****A Carnifex with Enhanced Senses can choose to use the Skyfire Special Rule.

Unit-specific Special Rules:

Living Battering Ram: A Carnifex is a living engine of destruction, combining alien agility with incredible strength and terrifying mass to bodily smash prey into the ground. The first time a Carnifex or Carnifex Brood assaults, it has the fleet special rule and inflicts a Hammer of Wrath attack with the Strikedown special rule on each enemy model in base to base contact with it, instead of the one Hammer of Wrath attack it would normally inflict.

Screamer-killer Carnifex: The Screamer-killer is a legendary and lethal strain of Carnifex known and feared for a particularly deadly combination of mutations and Biomorphs. A Screamer-killer Carnifex has the Feel No Pain and Rampage Special Rules, and is able to fire Bio-plasma as a shooting attack (see below)
Bio-plasma
Range: 18”, Strength: 7, AP: 2, Type: Assault 1, Blast

 McNinja wrote:
I think it needs either T7 or a 2+ armor save.

A monstrous creature that cheap couldn't get those without being made overpowered.

I admit it need's a boost, but cdon't want to push it over to the other side of the scale.

 Evileyes wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
I think it needs either T7 or a 2+ armor save.

A monstrous creature that cheap couldn't get those without being made overpowered.

I admit it need's a boost, but cdon't want to push it over to the other side of the scale.

This. So much of this.. It's a cheap MC, but I agree it does need to be powered up, considering at the moment the only option is the Dakkafex, with any other loadout in the current 'dex it sucks ass :/

Then make the cost 145. The carnifex as it is currently is too expensive for what it does and how much it can survive. Living Battering Ram is useless if you use a Dakkafex because you don't want that in an assault so it can shoot more.

You could also give it rage, which would help it in CC.

Right now, a Tryon is an infinitely better investment if you want something in CC.

I think one major problem with the current Tyranid codex is that it took most of the biomorphs and absolutely all the mutations and invalidated them, thus restricting you quite a lot.

Let living battering ram make his Hammer of wrath attack strike at Ap 2, getting charged by something thats used to break down heavy fortifications shouldn't be stopped by a bit of armor.

Seriously, what the Carnifex needs to be competetive with the Trygon is the ability to take a 2+ save and/or T7 again, right now the Trygon is marginally more expensive but vastly more survivable and does so much more when it actually gets there.

Amoras wrote:
Let living battering ram make his Hammer of wrath attack strike at Ap 2, getting charged by something thats used to break down heavy fortifications shouldn't be stopped by a bit of armor.

True. The fluff labels the carnifex as one of the most powerful beast the Swarm has to offer... yet, it isn't. D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks at AP2 would be just fine. Either that or some sort of Tank Shock/Ram-like effect.

 McNinja wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Let living battering ram make his Hammer of wrath attack strike at Ap 2, getting charged by something thats used to break down heavy fortifications shouldn't be stopped by a bit of armor.

True. The fluff labels the carnifex as one of the most powerful beast the Swarm has to offer... yet, it isn't. D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks at AP2 would be just fine. Either that or some sort of Tank Shock/Ram-like effect.

Well in the same slot is an honest to god biotitan, a small biotitan yes, but a Trygon is technically in the same class as Heirodules and Hierophants.

And that's the fault of GW.

Here's a question: If we can take up to three carnifex in a brood, should one carnifex be as viable as a trygon, should two, or should three match it's power?

Not Power, Mcninja; Viability.

The Trygon provides a single MC for a decent points cost that does a lot of things very well.

The Carnifex in a Drop Pod is in a similar place to the Trygon.

The difference is: 3 Carnifexes is a completely different use and reason. If youre running a slot with 3 carnifexes, you're doing one of three things:

Spamming them
Taking 2 slots that AREN'T carnifexes, while still keeping up numbers
Taking only one HS slot (which would be GREAT if they could be allies!)


TBH, I think 3 Carnifexes fully kitted for CC should cost 450. 3 Carnifexes fully kitted for ranged should be ~480-540, but have a decent amount of firepower. If you want 9 MC's in your HS slot, it should be expensive enough to be "Your List" at 1850, and as such, it should be able to function as "a list".

Mutations that change around the statline for a price and armored shell needs to return to carnifexes, as does not sucking in assault and HVCs being able to actually kill vehicles rather than provide amusement for enemy tank commanders.

The problem with Fexes in assault is attacks, or more correctly the small number of them they get for their price tag, which due to their mediocre WS means they don't get many hits with what few attacks they do have. Secondly is that they lost a metric ton of biomorphs that helped them out in assault, mutations, armored shell, adamantium tusks, weapon tails, pretty much everything.

Now all they have are talons and claws. Being able to double up on claws would be awesome though.

Stonecrushers are an interesting case, being the most viable melee fex, due to being extremely cheap, having a 2+ save, coming with claws already, and having IWND (can't remember if it could also take regen...) meaning that with Endurance on it it's effectively immortal and will wreck face when it gets into melee.

Stonecrusher spam, needless to say, is my main usage for HS.

Give them a 2+ save would certainly be nice, but a lot of the things that easily wound them are already 2+ armor pen so I don't see that as a massive improvement. Helps them shrug off the golden bee bee shots a bit easier. I really want to see them gain Old One Eye's special ability that lets them get an additional melee attack for each of their original attacks that kills a model. Either that or they get regen for free. That would go a long ways towards making them tyranid tanks.

They really need two things: slightly more survivability and slightly more attacks.

As I always do, this post and the fan fix it advertises are the best I've seen:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115091

Amoras wrote:
Let living battering ram make his Hammer of wrath attack strike at Ap 2, getting charged by something thats used to break down heavy fortifications shouldn't be stopped by a bit of armor.

I must say it seems like an oversight that MC creatures don't get AP2 when doing Hammer of Wrath or Vector Strikes. Its not as if they aren't trampling the target with their massive hooves, bulk, and spikey bits.

Vector strike gets 1d3 attacks at AP3 but uses up one ranged attack.

HoW from an MC should get its AP2.

I always figured the rule on HoW being AP - was to prevent people with jump packs from getting the AP of a power/force weapon. Which makes some sense. Makes far less for MC.

I figure I'll start over, and see where that gets us:

Carnifex Brood..................................... 160 points

.................WS..BS..S...T...W....I....A....Ld...Sv
Carnifex....3.....3....9...6....4....2...2.....6.....3+

[Unit Composition]: 1-3 Carnifexes
[Unit Type]: Monstrous Creature
[Biomorphs and Mutations]: Two pairs of Scything Talons
[Special Rules]: Instinctive Behavior - Feed, Fearless, Living Battering Ram, Single Minded Pursuit

Living Battering Ram: The Carnifex is among the most powerful of the beasts the Tyranid swarm has to offer, able to rend battle tanks in twain or level entire squads of troops in a single devastating charge. If a Carnifex charges a non-vehicle unit, it gains D3 AP2 Hammer of Wrath attacks. If it charges a Vehicle or building, its Hammer of Wrath attacks gain the Armorbane special rule.

Single Minded Pursuit: It is not easy to make a Carnifex dead, and even harder for it to be swayed from its one purpose: killing. Carnifexes have the Crusader and Rampage Special rules. In addition, for each Carnifex in the Brood after the first, they all gain +1 Leadership.

[Options]:
Any Carnifex may replace either pair of Scything Talons with one of the following:
--- Crushing Claws --------------------------------------------- +20 points
--- Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms --- +15 points
--- Twin-Linked Venom Cannon ---------------------------- +15 points
--- Twin-Linked Deathspitter --------------------------------- +10 points
--- Heavy Venom Cannon ------------------------------------- +10 points
--- Stanglethorn Cannon -------------------------------------- +10 points
--- Stinger Salvo ------------------------------------------------- +10 points
--- Lash Whips -------------------------------------------------- +10 points

Any Carnifex may take the following biomorphs and mutations
--- Frag Spines ------------------------------------------------ +5 points
--- Adrenal Glands -------------------------------------------- +10 points
--- Implant Attack ---------------------------------------------- +10 points
--- Bio-Plasma* ------------------------------------------------ +15 points
--- Bio-Plasma Inducers* ----------------------------------- +15 points
--- Regeneration ----------------------------------------------- +15 points
--- Armored Shell ---------------------------------------------- +25 points
--- Adamantine Skeleton (+1T) ---------------------------- +25 points

*If a Carnifex takes Bio-plasma, it has a range of 18". Bio-Plasma Inducers increase Bio-Plasma from Assault 1 to Assault 3

Old One Eye................................................................................. 260 points
.........................WS..BS..S...T...W....I....A....Ld...Sv
Old One Eye....4.....2...10..7....4....1...4.....8.....3+

[Unit Composition]: 1 (Unique)
[Unit Type]: Monstrous Creature
[Biomorphs and Mutations]: One pair of Crushing Claws, one pair of Scything talons
[Special Rules]: Instinctive Behavior - Feed, Fearless, Living Battering Ram, Single Minded Pursuit, Rapid Regeneration, Berserk Rampage, Alpha Leader

7-9 attacks for a Carnifex if they are outnumbered on the charge...

Seems a bit OP that does...

I like the fluff of it having Rampage, but in game terms it can be a LITTLE bit broken :/

Bloodhorror wrote:
7-9 attacks for a Carnifex if they are outnumbered on the charge...

Seems a bit OP that does...

I like the fluff of it having Rampage, but in game terms it can be a LITTLE bit broken :/

True. For some reason, I thought Rampage didn't apply to the first round of combat. Swapped it for Crusader, though I'm not sure if that is more OP, if only because it allows Carnifexes to stand a chance at Sweeping a unit.

Just as a thought, but what about just moving it to the troop slot? That would provide an innate troop MC without having to bring potentially unwanted Termagants, remove the competition with Trygons, and better reflect how they are the most common MC in the swarm. The precedent for a swap to troops is already present with Warriors having been downgraded from HQ/Elite to Troops and it would certainly be unique.

Bloodhorror wrote:
7-9 attacks for a Carnifex if they are outnumbered on the charge...

Seems a bit OP that does...

I like the fluff of it having Rampage, but in game terms it can be a LITTLE bit broken :/

With Crushing Claws they already have the potential to put out a maximum of 9 attacks each on the charge (4 base +2 for Feed + 3 for a really good D3 roll), so...

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Bloodhorror wrote:
7-9 attacks for a Carnifex if they are outnumbered on the charge...

Seems a bit OP that does...

I like the fluff of it having Rampage, but in game terms it can be a LITTLE bit broken :/

With Crushing Claws they already have the potential to put out a maximum of 9 attacks each on the charge (4 base +2 for Feed + 3 for a really good D3 roll), so...

In which case, giving them rampage for a potential 12 is even sillier !