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I've been running a mech list that doesn't seem to be effective against MEQ, and my opponent agreed with me(after beating me badly twice), so I've decided to switch out my L.R. Exterminators with plain ol' LRBTs.
For battles against less armored foes, I'm going to switch back to exterminators, and probably my basilisk.
Previous ideas.
Spoiler:
CCS 3x Meltaguns
Chimera (Mutli-Las, H.Flame)
Veteran unit
3x Meltaguns
Chimera (same weapons)
Veteran unit
3x Meltaguns
Chimera (same weapons)
Veteran unit
3x Plasma Guns
Chimera (same weapons)
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could keep it simple, and add a 4th weapon to the CCS, a 3rd Chi-Vet and spend the rest on Vet Doctrines or Harker.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/26 00:05:06
"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action."
That and the LRBT is still the worst kind of russ. You'd do much better taking those exterminators and adding plasma cannons than downgrading to naked russes. Alternately, this might be time for some executioners.
I get good (and enjoyable) milage out of the regular Russ. But I am also a Ork players that has a hard-on for the shokk attack gun. So take my words with a grain of salt.
Since these are casual matches bring out the regular russ all you want.
Also foolish mortal, his math is right he has 2 meltagun vet squads.
With 85 points left you have a few options. You can give yourself 2 scout sentinels with multilasers and a meltagun to the CCS OR have a unit of 8 rough riders. Yes I said rough riders, and no I am not a COMPLETE simpleton. Since it is no fliers and a casual game give them a shot. If nothing else just have a good laugh as they are shredded or they may surprise you even.
That and the LRBT is still the worst kind of russ.
Arguable both sides. It's not terribly helpful to state something as fact when it comes down to a number of variables - predominantly how WAAC the meta you play in is. Personally I find the LRBT to be quite good, although I understand why those in more competitive metas where every unit is (somehow) at maximum dispersion may not get as much use from them.
Moral of the story - don't state opinion as fact.
Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS.
Did people not read the OP? He specifically went with the LRBT to try to improve his game vs MEQ
3x Chi-Melta Vets at 1000 points? What is your local meta-game like?
The Executioners are better than Demolishers at anti-TEQ, and worse at AT and Anti-FNP. Your call. I still think the LRBTs are better VS MEQ, especially if you give one or two of your Vet Squads LCs to pop open Rhinos
"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action."
Updated my list again. I think the LRBTs still could be useful. Gave my CCS a lascannon (and Carapace) as he will be in the back directing guys, might as well take shots at vehicles or terminators. Gave all my vets all Demolitions instead of grenadier, on the off chance (which is probably very high) of the enemy gettin' in charging distance. Also, I figure it would help with the fights where the enemy blows up the transport and charges. If this isn't the case, I might try out Grenadier for better survival against bolt weapons.
Thoughts?
After all these years of searching for Marbo...he found me. Heretics beware! He's back!
I like the 3rd list. Probably too many Demolitions Vets, but Demo-charge and Melta-bombs can be such fun. I think you can run it, do well and have fun.
Personally, I would drop Carapace from the CCS and Demolitions from the Vet Squads. Add LCs to 3 the Vets and an ADL
A standard game would have you hanging back for 1-3 rounds, behind the ADL, giggling about your AV12/14 and a 4+ cover save while shooting out 4 BS4 LCs and 2 LRBTs.
The Meltas and HFs help vs anything that gets too close, too fast.
Sometime in round 2-4, one or two of your Vet Squads starts to advance to grab an extra objective, try for line-breaker, grab the Relic, etc
2 LCs and Marbo, or 2 LCs and Harker might be fun also.
"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action."
If something just refuses to die at 2d6 armor pen with meltaguns, go for broken and throw melta charges? What happens if you get a face full of marines after the meltabomb goes off? I've always found melta vets with bombs to be extreme overkill. I prefer the armor as blind hope is better than no hope .
Think of it this way, you are shooting a land raider/monolith/front face of wagon(WHY!?!?)/all AV 14 front stuff. You get 3 hits with those meltaguns at 6" range. Now you roll a total of 6 dice, each pair needs a cumulative roll of a six to get a glance. On average rolls you just did 2 hull points worth of glance damage and one pen from a bit of luck. Now we roll to see where that pen is going. It is a 3. So now you have a land raider ready to perish to range fire power or maybe a Russ has already thrown in its shot and that raider just died a horrible death in relation to glances alone.
You just saved your points worth of vets for a squad of whatever is now tumbling out to get murder your guys.
WELCOME to guard!
It explains nothing I know but that is a small snapshot of the short lived life of a meltavet.
Okay, I tweeked the list a bit. Took away the CCS's Carapace, and exchanged the Vets' Demo for Grenadier. Also now CCS and a vet squad have Lascannons.
Perhaps I don't NEED the Grenadiers, but I figure it might help against all that bolter fire should my guys be caught without their vehicle or cover.
Thoughts?
After all these years of searching for Marbo...he found me. Heretics beware! He's back!
Tactical_Genius wrote:Moral of the story - don't state opinion as fact.
Well, it IS a fact that an exterminator has better killing power against a vast majority of targets than an LRBT. I won't apologize if my opinions reflect reality.
Now, if his point WASN'T to have the best killing power russes (such as which one looked coolest or was easiest to paint, etc.), than the OP could have been more clear on this.
As for the OP, your second list is the best so far. I'd be highly tempted to swap out that CCS for a cheaper HQ option (like a primaris psyker or lord commissar to ride in a chimera that you already have), so that you'd have more points left over to give the russes better sponsons. That or drop the executioners down to exterminators or vanquishers, which would give you the points not only to give them plasma cannons (and so have nearly as much plasma death with more other firepower), but you'd also have points left over to throw more on your CCS to give it a better loadout given that it's going to be in a transport.
Well, it IS a fact that an exterminator has better killing power against a vast majority of targets than an LRBT. I won't apologize if my opinions reflect reality.
The reason I thought LRBT would be good for fighting SM and their equiv. (at least in armor saves) was because of the tank's Armor pen of 3, along with being able to insta-kill Toughness 4 and lower. Also, the ordinance ability to roll two dice for Armor pen, and select the highest one for Vehicles.
I thought the exterminator would be better for my list should I run against guys with 4+ and lower armor saves, and would take them for such armies. I'm a little hesitant on the idea of putting Gets Hot! weapons on my tanks, not going to lie. Not afraid of losing some soldiers, but there's enough guys gunnin' for my tank to make me nervous.
The reason behind my idea to switch to LRBT (based on the army I'm fighting) was due to how ineffective they've been against some of my opponents in the past; necron, SM, CSM. Either they made the majority of armor saves, or FNP, or I didn't kill enough to drive them away and they got back up! Damn you necron. Note that I didn't have my exterminators when I fought against guard, and tau which I believe they would have kicked so much ass. Could my losses be the result of poor rolls, and tactics, perhaps.
These are my thoughts on the matter, to show y'all where I'm coming from.
After all these years of searching for Marbo...he found me. Heretics beware! He's back!
Guardsmen Bob wrote: Also, the ordinance ability to roll two dice for Armor pen, and select the highest one for Vehicles.
Even with the extra armor pen a single STR 8 AP 3 shot is a joke against vehicles.
I'm a little hesitant on the idea of putting Gets Hot! weapons on my tanks, not going to lie.
You have a 1/12 chance to remove a single hull point every time you shoot. So it doesn't happen very often, and even when it does it's probably not fatal. Part of playing IG is learning not to be afraid of your units dying, and to accept that sometimes maximum effectiveness requires taking risks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ailaros wrote: Well, it IS a fact that an exterminator has better killing power against a vast majority of targets than an LRBT.
Depends on how you define "vast majority". If you define it based on looking at all the possible targets, sure. If you define it based on how common each of those targets is, not really. The Exterminator has the advantage against either less-common stuff (fire warriors with no cover, for example) or things that neither tank is good against (vehicles), while the LRBT is limited in its role but at least picks the most common target in the game (MEQs) to be best against.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/27 03:29:17
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
The LRBT is only better than the exterminator against Sv3+ tightly clustered in the open and against AV 14 (which it handles very poorly). Unless your local meta is filled with nothing but tac squads in land raiders, the exterminator is the better buy.
Plus this is all somewhat academic as if all you want to do is kill space marines, then you can troll your opponent with 3 Colossuses and three las/plas mechvet squads with a primaris psyker for a thousand points. Relying on heavy list tailoring, though, is unlikely to win you many friends or help you become a better player.
Ailaros wrote: The LRBT is only better than the exterminator against Sv3+ tightly clustered in the open
Or against MEQs in 5+ cover, assuming you can hit 2.5 models per shot. The Exterminator's only real advantage is against widely-spaced light infantry in the open (being "better" against vehicles doesn't matter because it still sucks at that role), and MEQs are more common than non-MEQ infantry.
Plus this is all somewhat academic as if all you want to do is kill space marines, then you can troll your opponent with 3 Colossuses and three las/plas mechvet squads with a primaris psyker for a thousand points. Relying on heavy list tailoring, though, is unlikely to win you many friends or help you become a better player.
Why are we jumping straight from "don't take any dedicated MEQ killers" to "tailor your entire list to kill foot MEQ armies"? You do realize there's a middle ground of things like "take a single LRBT to kill marines", right?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
The exterminator is better than or equal to the LRBT against marines in deep cover, terminators, monstrous creatures, infantry with a 4+ or worse, and almost every vehicle, especially fliers. The LRBT is only better against AV 14, or marines tightly clustered out in the open, or in light cover. Wishful thinking won't change this reality. The fact that the battlecannon can, in certain circumstances, be better against marines than the exterminator is a consolation prize, not the sign that it's a dedicated marine hunter.
Plus, there's more to the marine codex than just tac squads. If your opponent is bringing literally nothing but Sv 3+, and refusing to use displacement or cover, you shouldn't need LRBTs to beat him.
Ailaros wrote: The exterminator is better than or equal to the LRBT against marines in deep cover
Which is a fairly rare type of target, and if they go to ground to get that cover they're pretty much out of the fight anyway.
terminators
Which the Exterminator is worthless against.
monstrous creatures
Again, worthless against.
and almost every vehicle
Mediocre at best against.
especially fliers.
And worthless against.
So we conclude that the LR Exterminator is only better against light infantry that are spaced out far enough that the pie plate can't hit enough of them to equal it in kills. And, as I said, MEQs are more common than light infantry.
Plus, there's more to the marine codex than just tac squads.
And the LR Exterminator isn't good against any of it. Which is the whole point: the LRBT is better against the one thing in C:SM that you actually want to shoot either tank at. The Exterminator is "better" against the stuff you only shoot it at as a desperation move, the whole time wishing you'd brought a better tank.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/27 07:14:55
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Alright, I made a few changes, decided two of the same tank might not be a great idea. I gave two of the chimera HKMs, but I wonder if that 20pts would be better spent just giving a vet team a Lascannon.
Thoughts?
After all these years of searching for Marbo...he found me. Heretics beware! He's back!
Peregrine wrote:Which is the whole point: the LRBT is better against the one thing in C:SM that you actually want to shoot either tank at.
Except that it's only better against a few of the units in the codex and only in certain situation where your opponent is being careless or sloppy. Your assertions to the opposite won't change the way math works.
Guardsmen Bob wrote:Alright, I made a few changes, decided two of the same tank might not be a great idea. I gave two of the chimera HKMs, but I wonder if that 20pts would be better spent just giving a vet team a Lascannon.
Yeah, the lascannon is going to be better than 2 HK's. I'd note, though, that for the price of two HKs and a lascannon, you can upgrade the LRBT to an executioner. Or an eradicator with multimeltas (which will give you something to fire at those pesky camo cloak scouts in cover and some more defensive melta for bigger stuff), or a lascannon vanquisher (with heavy bolters, or something) in case your opponent brings one of the codex's many vehicular options.
Made a few tweeks to the list. I don't want to...but I'm debating whether or not to get rid of Grenadier for everyone so I can give them all HWTs. Trade survivability (which guardsmen aren't really known for I guess), for kill power. The Vanquisher seems a bit to geared for Vehicle hunting, but I suppose 3 str 8, and a str 9 shot all with AP2/1 would have a shot at making a dent in a Spacemarine/terminator squad.
Thoughts?
After all these years of searching for Marbo...he found me. Heretics beware! He's back!
Umm, that one isn't quite so obvious. Having some BS4 lascannons to throw around is great, but it can also wind up forcing you into an immobile play style. If all you wanted was a lascannon on AV12, you could take a lascannon armored sentinel for much cheaper.
Grenadiers are okay, but they only work when the vehicle explodes. I actually like carapace more for foot vets. If you want to go with a doctrine, I'd rather take demolitions instead. Chimeras mean they can get closer to stuff to throw their demo charge and use their meltabombs, and even if they get caught in a horrible vehicle explosion, you really only need one or two meltambombs from the survivors to do your damage.
Ailaros wrote: Except that it's only better against a few of the units in the codex and only in certain situation where your opponent is being careless or sloppy. Your assertions to the opposite won't change the way math works.
And, again, you're missing the point. The only targets the Exterminator is better against are targets you don't want to be shooting either tank at. Your "analysis" massively overvalues slight advantages against things the Exterminator is awful at killing and ignores the fact that being slightly less awful at something doesn't make you good at it. If you focus on the things that you're ever going to shoot at as more than a desperation move you're left with a simple comparison:
The LRBT is good against MEQs and mediocre at best against everything else.
The Exterminator is good against light infantry and mediocre at best against everything else.
MEQs are more common than light infantry.
The fact that the Exterminator is slightly less awful at shooting terminators doesn't matter because if you're shooting at terminators with one something has gone badly wrong and you're probably going to lose the game.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I only run 3 kinds of LR -LRBT -Demolishers (As Thuderer if opponent is ok with IA)
-Executioners
Everything else is too much of a Niche Role platform IMO
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like the Primus Psyker instead of the CCS in this general build. The CCS wasn't doing you too many favors with everyone in a Vehicle.
I still don't like the Grenadiers in Vehichles.
Try something simple and see how you like it
either PP, 2xLRBC, 3x Chi-Plasmas with LCs (1 Harker)
or
PP, 2xLRBC, 3x Chi-Plasmas with LCs, ADL
I think you are at the point where you need some play testing (with proxies if necessary) to make up your own mind
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/28 15:10:28
"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action."
I added a fifth idea in Spoilers. However, due to the constant back and forth of this post I think I might just have to try multiple of your guys' ideas (through proxy) to find out which one works best for me like foolishmortal said. I did gain allot of insight into the tank variants, and their uses, so that's a plus!
After all these years of searching for Marbo...he found me. Heretics beware! He's back!
Ailaros wrote: Why pask? You're having to sacrifice a lot of firepower elsewhere in order to bring him.
Well, I thought it would increase my chances of killing enemy units or vehicles depending on which tank had him. Reduce scatter for a Battle cannon, increase hit and pen for the vanquisher.
I figure most of my kill power will be in my tanks until the enemy gets close enough, then my guys can better handle those that get through alive...assuming they're trying to get me and not just sitting back there. Which that could present a problem.
After all these years of searching for Marbo...he found me. Heretics beware! He's back!
It's not that he doesn't make things killier, it's that you're having to sacrifice on turret, special weapon, and sponson options in order to be able to take him. 50 points could go a long way towards making other things better in your list.
Thoughts?
1850 0 - 0 - 0
Marines 1850 1 - 0 - 0
210 points Trolls 9 - 0 - 3 
I think you can run it, do well and have fun.
