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I have been sitting by my computer every evening for a month now and i been thinking about what i want to give to my army .

I have been sitting and maid three lists that i where thinking about fixing .

Blood angels:

HQ:Commander Dante

Troops : 2 Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard

fast attack: Space Marine Vanguard Veteran Squad or a baal predator .

Heavy support : 2 Space Marine Dreadnought with las cannons or autocannons .

Space wolves:
HQ: Logan Grimnar

Troops: 2 Wolf Guard with jump packs

Fast attack : 2 Space Marine Assault Squad

heavy support : 2 Space Marine Devastator Squad

Dark Angels:
HQark Angels Company Master with jump pack and power shield + Monster slayer of Caliban or Sammael depending on Fast attack

Troops: 2 tactical squads or 2 squads of ravenwings

Fast attack: 2 10 squads of Assult marines

Elites : 2 dreadnoughts

Heavy support : 1 Space Marine Devastator Squad


So any thoughts?

Thats a tough one

The space wolf models are awesome and long fangs are good but i haven't got the new dark angel codex so not much to say on that one

It depends what type of army you want. All three have fast elements, shooting ability, and good close combat troops. I'd say the best list would be the space wolves one but personally i'd ditch the assault squads for some thunder wolf cavalry

1. Are these for a Primary or Allied Detachment and at what point level? I'm assuming Primary.

2. Wolf Guard with Jump Packs are hideously expensive for what they do. They just flat out aren't worth it. Wolf Guard Terminators are relatively cheap however, and you can mix PA and TDA which is a boon actually.

3. Likewise, Skyclaws are a little expensive for what they do. WS 3 means they are taking more hits (and thus more wounds) than the Assault Marines of other armies. Swiftclaws are a better investment, but really you should be looking at TWC if you look at anything in the FA slot of a Space Wolves list.

4. Blood Angels have awesomely cheap Assault Marines. Sanguinary Guard are cool, but are spendy and better in higher point games.

5. Dark Angels are either Deathwing, Ravenwing or "Green"wing (with Deathwing and Ravenwing support). Ravenwing is fairly strong against many armies, so I'd lean towards Sammael.

6. Why not Knights or Ravenwing Support Squads or even Ravenwing Bike Squads (even if Sammael is not taken)? They're more unique and more useful than Assault Marines IMO.


Basically, what are you wanting to do here? It seems you want Jump Infantry. If that's the case, play Blood Angels and use their basic Assault Marines. They're priced better and perform the same in combat (or better depending on Red Thirst rolls) and Descent of Angels means you can Deep Strike them accurately if you don't deploy them normally.

well i got guards as primary so this will be my allie unit that will fight as a cc group .I want a army that can jump headlong and start a rush that my guards can follow up on and give cover fire.

So any tips on a good cc group that can charge in a put fear in a khorn/nurgel army with no magic would be most liked

Any tips? @cowmonaut

Blood Angels are the most assault oriented, if that's what you are after. So something like:

125 pts - Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Shield of Sanguinius, Unleash Rage
90 pts - Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack, Power Sword
225 pts - Assault Marines (10) w/ 2 Meltaguns, 1 Power Weapon
225 pts - Assault Marines (10) w/ 2 Meltaguns, 1 Power Weapon

Total: 665 Points

And you can trim it down easily enough if you need more points for your Primary Detachment. The Librarian and a single Assault Marine squad is probably all you'd strictly need. Probably playing it backwards though, as an IG Blob can absorb more damage than any SM unit.

But the nice thing about BA is that you can Deep Strike them and scatter only D6" instead of 2D6" and they can Combat Squad. Shield of Sanguinius will give you a cover save, even in the open, to any BA units within 6" of the Librarian. The Sanguinary Priest of course gives Feel No Pain and Furious Charge to all BA units within 6" of the Sanguinary Priest. 22 Space Marines landing pretty much anywhere you want on the board, or rapidly moving up the board, are tough to deal with regardless. In cover and with FNP they'll be even more annoying to shoot at. In an assault they can put out potentially 22 I10 S4 attacks, 16 I4 Power Weapon (AP 4/3/2 S7/5/6) attacks, and 72 I4 S5 attacks on the charge. That'll hurt most anything just from volume.

Anyways, Nurgle tends to hurt due to high Toughness and Poison. Furious Charge can help with the high Toughness issue. Poison hurts weaker models less than tougher ones (I'm thinking TWC vs Assault Marines). For Khorne, all you can do is deny him his Furious Charge bonus and try to bring the better armor save. Or stay out of combat with them and try to shoot them down.

The SW are much better at close ranges than the BA. Due to the pricing in the codex and 6th edition nerfs, BA assault is a bit of a misnomer now.

Jumpers almost never get to use hammer of wrath, and BA ASM take lots of hits in return since they no longer have access to init 5.

I wouldn't recommend deep striking. Since this is a tactical game, not a strategic game, reserves are usually undesirable. You want as many model contributing as soon as possible. Deep striking ASM can't possibly charge until turn 3. That is often far, far too late.

Martel732: You seem to be misunderstanding a few things.

1. Space Wolves are great in short range firefights. They're solid all-rounders and excel at close quarters combat. That's different than being an assault unit. We're talking short range shooting versus close combat attacks.

2. Assault Marines from Codex: Blood Angels are priced very well. If you drop the Jump Packs you get a free Rhino/very cheap Razorbacks. If you keep them, you can take 10 scoring Jump Infantry, with upgrades, for cheaper than I can take 10 Grey Hunters in a Drop Pod/Rhino (or the same price if you drop the Wolf Standard). So if you are complaining about the price of these Assault Marines you have to complain about the cost of Grey Hunters....

3. The only real nerf to Blood Angels was that they no longer are Initiative 5 on the charge due to the changes to Furious Charge. So they're just as "vulnerable" in close combat as every other MEQ model in the game. That's not actually a really big disadvantage...

4. Being able to Deep Strike is a tactical option. You don't have to do it, but there are times where its nice you have the option. Furthermore, Reserves are not usually undesirable (late game Objective capturing) and having less time for the enemy to deal with a large group of MEQ can be important.

5. Turn 3 is mid-game. That means you have potentially 6 rounds in the assault phase before the game ends (minimum of 5 turns per game). Given the life expectancy of a model over the course of a game, that's plenty of time to do damage.


So I'd disagree with your assessment. Anyways, kind of moot since the OP wanted Jump Infantry it seems. That basically means Blood Angels if you want it to do well.

I'm not misunderstanding anything.

The BA have suffered multiple nerfs, not just FC.

Almost always, voluntarily reserving is piecemealing your own army for your opponent. It just leaves what forces you are forced to start with with less support. I've won several games I should have lost because of my opponents decision to reserve.

Other than BT, the BA are currently the weakest of the loyalist marines. The OP should be aware of this.

What I'm saying is that even the BA don't "do it well" anymore. Not until a new codex, anyway.

BTW, you are really talking to the wrong person to claim anything about not understanding BA. The badness of the BA is not really apparent until after about 25 TAC matches.

cowmonaut wrote:
Martel732: You seem to be misunderstanding a few things.

1. Space Wolves are great in short range firefights. They're solid all-rounders and excel at close quarters combat. That's different than being an assault unit. We're talking short range shooting versus close combat attacks.

Not disputing this, GH are an excellent close range combat unit, and very good at holding ground.

2. Assault Marines from Codex: Blood Angels are priced very well. If you drop the Jump Packs you get a free Rhino/very cheap Razorbacks. If you keep them, you can take 10 scoring Jump Infantry, with upgrades, for cheaper than I can take 10 Grey Hunters in a Drop Pod/Rhino (or the same price if you drop the Wolf Standard). So if you are complaining about the price of these Assault Marines you have to complain about the cost of Grey Hunters....

I question the usefulness of expensive scoring assault troops, as they are either camping and not doing damage, or doing damage and abandoning objectives. Tyranid genestealers and hormigants have the same issues, which is one of many reasons you don't see them being used much anymore.

I also wanna mention that 10 ASM are 190 points, whereas 10 GH in a pod/rhino is 185, both squads don't include toys of course. The GH get their toys cheaper as well, since you get the second special free or an attached wolf guard gets his gear cheaper then an ASM sergeant would as well.

Also, rhinos and razors are basically a way to give your opponent first blood for free in 6th. I've found them to be more of a liability then a help.

3. The only real nerf to Blood Angels was that they no longer are Initiative 5 on the charge due to the changes to Furious Charge. So they're just as "vulnerable" in close combat as every other MEQ model in the game. That's not actually a really big disadvantage...

That's the only nerf that took specifically...sure. Throw in variable charge distances, overwatch and increased firepower from rapid firing opponents and they have received a slew of indirect nerfs as well. There's a reason 6th edition is called the "shooting" edition. Hell, fifth was a shooting edition and assault units have been nerfed since then. BA relied on that I5 on the charge, as it was a large increase to their survivabilty by cutting down the number of return attacks they suffered at I4.

4. Being able to Deep Strike is a tactical option. You don't have to do it, but there are times where its nice you have the option. Furthermore, Reserves are not usually undesirable (late game Objective capturing) and having less time for the enemy to deal with a large group of MEQ can be important.

No sane player deep strikes something that doesn't have some manner of mishap immunity (eg. drop pods) or is completely 100% expendable. Even if it's unlikely you could lose a squad, the fact it's even a CHANCE makes it far too risky for what you are paying for your average BA assault squad.

5. Turn 3 is mid-game. That means you have potentially 6 rounds in the assault phase before the game ends (minimum of 5 turns per game). Given the life expectancy of a model over the course of a game, that's plenty of time to do damage.

The real kicker of reserves is that you voluntarily putting yourself at a disadvantage for several turns by the simple fact that 10-25% of your army is not there yet. It's pretty common knowledge that if you want to kill 1 enemy unit dead, you are going to have to commit 2-3 units of equal power to do it. By putting yourself at even a small disadvantage for as little as 2-3 turns, you drastically shift the power balance in a game. That is, assuming it's a close game....if your opponents are mouth breathers you won't notice this. The only units you see top player put in reserve are small scoring units they are concerned will be blasted off the board for first blood, and weren't going to contribute anything to the battle other than camping an objective anyways, and fliers, which are forced to reserve.

Also, I've seen more games decided by turn 3 than I've seen decided on turn 6/7. It's extremely difficult to turn the tide once it's tipped in one direction.

So I'd disagree with your assessment. Anyways, kind of moot since the OP wanted Jump Infantry it seems. That basically means Blood Angels if you want it to do well.

Martel knows his Blood Angels pretty well, and he's not far off when he considers them among the worse MeQ armies in the game. If the OP wants assault marines....he can't really do much better than Blood Angels, simple because all the other ASM are worse. Still, he'd be better off with something else, that's for sure.

I can't say that I have a lot of experience outside of GK, but if you're looking at a primary IG army with an allied combat unit to tackle the heavy stuff and you love jump troops, I'd suggest that you could do worse than a squad of Vanguard Vets, potentially with lances and/or axes depending on what you're expecting to face.

It seems to me that if you want, as you say, "an army that can jump headlong and start a rush that my guards can follow up on and give cover fire", that the VV will be a sufficient distraction, and hopefully that Heroic Intervention means that they can get stuck in where a lot of other options would be shot to pieces before they ever see combat. If you do want the jump troops, as others have said I'd recommend BA, but I'd drop the Sanguinary Guard and Dante and look at more basic ASM and HQ.

Again, I'm as new to BA as you are so I speak without any authority, but from my reading of others, that's the best advice I can give!

BA ASM can control their reserves very well. They are allowed to reroll their reserve roll. Rerolling a 3 means you will get in your guys on turn 2. Instead of trying to assault with them, I would use them as shooting units.

Five ASM squads with special weapons are about 1100pts. This gets you 50 guys broken down into 10 five man squads who deep strike d6 inches. You can get them in close and spread out to maximize damage and minimize return fire/assaults.

FC isn't what it used to be. BA who cling to FC will fail in 6th just like any other army which clings to a 5th mindset. Lose all priests and forget about FC.

BA can still present a wall of armor 13 which is still strong and fast. Use the remaining points to deploy armor 13 across the board.

BA also have a really great psychic power which is underestimated. Fear the Darkness. Leadership check at minus 2 or run is powerful against gun line armies like Tau. And it ain't bad against Necrons or Grey Knights either. Those are three common armies on the tabletop right now.

BA can improve by taking allies, but so can all armies.

"Martel knows his Blood Angels pretty well, and he's not far off when he considers them among the worse MeQ armies in the game. If the OP wants assault marines....he can't really do much better than Blood Angels, simple because all the other ASM are worse. Still, he'd be better off with something else, that's for sure."

It's hard to understand how bad the BA really are until you play against all possible enemy lists in a TAC environment several times.

The BA have enough gimmicks and utility remaining to win about 40% of their games. Tacking on allies helps against those who aren't also tacking on allies.

I still take priests for FNP and an additional goober with a power axe. FNP, particularly on bike units, is still worth having, although it is a close call with the price of the SP.

Jumpers almost never get to use hammer of wrath,

Martel, can you explain this comment? I am admittedly new to 6th ed (played back in 4th ed) but the couple of games I've had so far have me baffled as to why you're not getting your hammer of wrath...

Are you frequently having your jumpers assaulted? Or failing charge distances (due to either bad rolling or having your assault troops killed by overwatch fire? Because if that's why you're not getting the HoW attacks, that seems like more of a tactical/movement problem rather than a failing of the jump unit per se...

In the handful of 6th ed games I've played (either DSing or using Assault Marines deployed from the start) I have only failed to get a charge once, and that was vs. Tau before I realized the necessity of butchering their markerlight carriers and the fact that they had AP3 pie plates that could ignore cover saves. And even then, they drew fire away away from other units, so it wasn't a total waste.

Is assault harder in 6th ed? Definitely. Are dedicated assault units overpriced as a result? A definite possibility. But does that mean that they're worthless? I highly doubt it, especially if deployed as support/allies for a shooty IG army

Well, I'm not Martel, but you don't get HoW on jump pack infantry if you use their JP in the Movement phase.

Also, at the comment earlier about BA ASM getting Rhinos free, our ASM only get a 35 point discount. Our Rhinos are 55 points. 20 extra points, just for Fast. On a Vehicle that usually has 1 weapon.

If you think about it, GH beat BA ASM in a fair pointed fight. Even if the ASM assault, they won't have a chance. Firstly, Overwatch will bring down 1-2 marines. As long as the GH get Counter-attack off, EACH GH gets 3 attacks. With the Banner and MotW, they BA player will have a sad, sad day.

Lucarikx

Because if you use the jump pack to move, you can't use it the assault phase. Compare this to bikers, who just get to hammer of wrath all the time.

BA ASM have the following problems that become apparent mostly vs astute players who know what they are looking at:

1) We get punched back by anything init 4. This is disastrous when facing things like GH. Even worse are CSM who have access to init 5.

2) ASM don't participate in the shooting phase. This is a self-explanatory problem, but the fact that these guys do *nothing * until 12" out is a serious problem in 6th.

3) Overwatch chips away at us.

4) People can hose up assaults with carefully placed sacrificial units, setting up a "kill zone' for their next turn. This is probably the single biggest problem with DC other than their outrageously costed jump packs.

5) MCs eat ASM for breakfast, and they will be fairly fresh because of problem #2.

BA are not worthless, per se, but Space Wolves are SOOOOO much better. Space Wolves can stand and deliver bolter and plasma fire and then when enemies get close ,they just stand there and take the charge and STILL get three attacks a piece. I can't stress how nuts that is compare d to what the BA can do. Especially now that we lost access to init 5. In 6th, I shoot Space Wolves with the BA. Admittedly this is very lame, but there it is. And if I'm shooting them with BA, the IG can shoot them better.

The Space Wolves are just MUCH MUCH better bodyguards for IG than BA. The BA just kind of fail at assault for the moment.


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This whole thread reminds me of how my buddy is going to want to use my BA as target practice as soon as that Eldar book drops....... I might not play this game much in 2014 as its becoming a bad joke.

Because if you use the jump pack to move, you can't use it the assault phase.

Woah, had to check my new rulebook to verify this one (but it is there, p. 47), and that is a significant hit to the usefulness of jump troops in this edition, and I confess I've been playing it wrong (most of the folks at my FLGS are as new to 6th Ed as I am).

That said, given the ability to run (per normal infantry) and then re-roll the assault distance does make HoW still usable for jump troops (if less useful, as you said, than bikers)

You can't run and assault in 6th edition. Even if you are fleet.

You have to pour over the rule book and understand how all the units interact to understand the full nerfing of the BA. We used to be able to disembark from razorbacks and assault, but no longer. Dante used to be able to use his initiative. Mephiston used to penetrate 2+ armor. The list goes on and on. And yet, none of the point values are different. This game is sometimes hard to swallow when compared to a game with real time point adjustments like Starcraft.


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Also, don't feel bad. A lot of people who aren't hitting on 100% with the newer edition have trouble discerned what's actually good in 6th edition.