Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey folks,

Getting back into 40k after a bit of a long hiatus and hoping to use some of my old models, but with a few there are some potential issues -- notably my terminators and an old-style Rhino/Razorback kit that I found assembled in my basement.

Not wanting to be accused of Modeling for Advantage, I'd like to get your thoughts on if/how I can/should use my older pieces. Thanks in advance.

Apostasus wrote:
Hey folks,

Getting back into 40k after a bit of a long hiatus and hoping to use some of my old models, but with a few there are some potential issues -- notably my terminators and an old-style Rhino/Razorback kit that I found assembled in my basement.

Not wanting to be accused of Modeling for Advantage, I'd like to get your thoughts on if/how I can/should use my older pieces. Thanks in advance.

Those are not modeling for advantage as I have ran both old skool terminators and rhinos in tournaments in my area. However your mileage may very.

From experience I've seen rare issues when it comes to older model.

However you should try and use current bases, as I've seen that required in tourney play.

Just my opinions, not RAW.

Really depends on the model.
I have some RT era Ork Wartrakks, and they're about the size of current Ork Bikers. Way smaller than a current Wartrakk.
Razorback should be fine, just check with opponents / TO's.

For my rather large collection of Black Templar I use all older rhino style chassis for my rhinos,razorbacks,predators ect,,,almost 50 total,,,,,with no problems.(as thats the style when I began collecting and Im not throwing them out)

As to the older style term bases,I think there was some sort of rule update about the base size or something.

Also as to older models,,,,I love pulling them out and having people go what are those,,,GW didnt make those,,,,,,,especially with my prototype terminators,,,,,

I have no problem with people running old models (I use an old Zoanthrope (the one with legs) as the Doom of Malan'tai). I do have a problem with people mixing old and new within the same unit. Of course I'm fairly lenient as I understand that some people only have a couple of (for example) old 25 mm Termies and the new 40 mm Termies and wants to run them as a single unit instead of not getting to use them at all.

Gomericus wrote:

As to the older style term bases,I think there was some sort of rule update about the base size or something.

Not outside of tournament house rules, no, there wasn't.

If you have the older model, use it. I've got no worries about you using the smaller models, personally. (That being said, it would be very easy to rebase your terminators if you just want to avoid the hassle.)

Personally I'm fine with it within reason. Namely, the old teeny tiny MCs that are on smaller bases. I don't even care if my opponent is using the old model, but at least put it on the appropriately sized base.

For example, I run an old school Keeper of Secrets in my CD army. But I put it on a custom resin base that not only adds a couple of centimeters to the height, but is the appropriate MC sized base. Once GW puts out an affordable KoS model that isn't ugly as homemade sin, I'll slap some wings on the old model and run it as a daemon prince.

You're going to end up with two choices:
1. Endless argument and discussion about why you don't think the differences in size matter, countered by equally strong arguments that the differences in size do matter.
2. Perform various minor modeling tasks to minimize the difference.

I have 25mm based terminators and obliterators that were simple enough to deal with. I glued each model's 25mm base onto the top of the bigger base. That gets you the bigger base size, a moderate increase in profile, and it would be reasonable to reverse if you change your mind.

I did the same thing with my 1st edition greater Daemon of Slaanesh. I glued my nicely painted and flocked square large monster base onto a round base of the appropriate size.

As far as the old-style Rhino and Razorback, those models are pretty close to the current size. There's a slight difference in model height using some inexpensive third party wooden bases or something similar.


Clearly, the difference in size between the white rhino (current version) and brown rhino (original version) could make a difference in some cases. In the photo, both rhinos are visible and the height isn't making an actual difference.

It really comes down to one question. If you got into a situation where the difference in model size mattered, would you be willing to pretend that the model was bigger when it benefits your opponent; and deal with the smaller model size when it doesn't?

All models are official, they have no competitive advantage, the difference with modern is a 5-7mm, that's ridiculous.

In the case of the older models, they should be placed on new appropriate bases. This is the only legal requirement, all the rest has no weight.

 Darog wrote:
In the case of the older models, they should be placed on new appropriate bases. This is the only legal requirement, all the rest has no weight.

That's not a legal requirement at all. In fact, it specifically goes against the rules, but is a common convention.

And since large bases are nearly always an advantage, and models only move up with new versions, it's not really an advantage to stick with old bases.

 Polonius wrote:
And since large bases are nearly always an advantage, and models only move up with new versions, it's not really an advantage to stick with old bases.

Larger bases are generally disadvantageous when Deep Striking.

Yeah, that's why most people wind up re-basing their old terminators... People get cranky about small-based deep strikers.

 solkan wrote:
Clearly, the difference in size between the white rhino (current version) and brown rhino (original version) could make a difference in some cases. In the photo, both rhinos are visible and the height isn't making an actual difference.

It was really the width question more than the height w/ re: the rhino that makes me wonder... the older version can fit through terrain gaps where the modern version might have to take difficult terrain tests or something similar.

It really comes down to one question. If you got into a situation where the difference in model size mattered, would you be willing to pretend that the model was bigger when it benefits your opponent; and deal with the smaller model size when it doesn't?

Yeah, in general I'm willing to do this (it is only the one rhino and I have a bit of a prejudice against 'em anyway -- I try to build my lists around drop pods and other options).

I suppose it would be different if I were running rhino heavy lists and needed to pick up more ... it would feel weird to me to run rhinos of different sizes in the same list, but a one-off in smaller lists doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Just as a matter of interest, does the fact that I have yet to assemble the rhino/razor in question influence your thoughts at all (10 years or so of laziness may come back to bite me )?

 Darog wrote:
All models are official, they have no competitive advantage, the difference with modern is a 5-7mm, that's ridiculous.

In the case of the older models, they should be placed on new appropriate bases. This is the only legal requirement, all the rest has no weight.

I would respectfully disagree. As an example, the really old hive tyrants. Ther are an inch shorter than a walking tyrant. And now with the new flyrant model, it is super tall compared to the walking one. A local nid player understandably does not have the money for new flyrants, and just glued some demon wings on it's back, as did i before the release of the model.

Our store also has large pieces of LOS blocking terrain.

So now there is a common situation of this flyer always having cover, and a majority of the time, being out of LOS. While most of us don't hate it because of his finacial situation, it drives us up the wall, since we would never cut our flying stems to have our flyers this low. But it is only a headache during tournaments. During friendlies, all we do is shrug.

It is legal to use old models on the old bases they came with.

However, it seems unfair to use new rules on old models. There's no rules basis for this claim--but points costs and base sizes and model abilities are all vaguely balanced, and are getting more balanced as time goes on. GW decided to switch TDA to 40mm because that makes the models more balanced. They increased the size of the Rhino because the tiny model was less balanced.

So while using old models is legal, it can be in the spirit of MFA, if not actually MFA.

Older/smaller models are fine for official play; but if you are going to use them, do it with style! When I was updating my 2nd Ed Sisters army to Witch Hunters, I converted all of their Mk1 Rhinos to Legion of the Damned, which look awesome with my LotD army. Legal models, no mixing and matching (my choice), themed paint scheme ... Style!

On the other hand, I'm actually looking for dome decent RT era TDA, small base and all, to model up an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in TDA with Psycannon and Nemesis Daemonhammer, because OMG! that will look sweet attached to my GKT.

The thing is there are no clear advantages that are not countered by equally clear disadvantages when dealing with smaller/older models. The only real issue is mixing and matching older and newer models without a thematic branding for your army. 'Nids and Orks will look spended regardless of model vintage, while Marines might look odd with a mix of new and old models in the same unit that do not thematically match.

The rule of style is the rule of cool.

SJ

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
GW decided to switch TDA to 40mm because that makes the models more balanced.

This is an assumption. More likely (IMO) they switched TDA to 40mm bases simply because the new models didn't fit on 25mm bases. it was always a little cramped on a 25mm for terminators... once you make them a little bigger and move their feet a little further apart, there was simply no choice other than to increase the base size.

They increased the size of the Rhino because the tiny model was less balanced.

Again, assumption. And a rather odd one. They increased the size of the rhino because the original one was made to go with Marine models that were considerably smaller than the current ones.

GW's general mode of operation is to design models that look cool, and then write rules that go with them. Models don't change size for balance. They change size because GW think they model will be better if it is bigger.

I didn't realise I was required to put an "assumption disclaimer" on my obvious assumptions.
GW should change models for three reasons: game balance, good looks, and company profit, hopefully in that order, and hopefully for at least the first two reasons each time.
They don't give MC stats to Ratling-size models, because that would give a significant (unfair?) advantage. Flyers are on huge stands so the whole board can draw LoS to them. Size of model does play a part in game balance.

Edit: typo

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I didn't realise I was required to put an "assumption disclaimer" on my obvious assumptions.

If you're stating something as a fact, then yes, of course it is. Otherwise, people are going to take your statement at face value.

Flyers are on huge stands so the whole board can draw LoS to them.

Are they? Or are they just on huge stands because they're supposed to be flying?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
They don't give MC stats to Ratling-size models, because that would give a significant (unfair?) advantage. Flyers are on huge stands so the whole board can draw LoS to them.

Flyers are on huge bases do they don't fall over. If you managed to put a Valkryie on a ratling-sized base and still have it in the air, I'd let you play with it. Unless you are referring to the height of the base in which case, duh. They're in the air. Of course they're gonna have high bases.

We shouldn't equate real world common sense or examples with rules in the game. Sure, Flyers are "flying," but that means something very different in the game than IRL.
Being on a flying stand represents that they are flying. Flyers have some benefits, like being Hard to Hit and having a tremendous movement range. Along with those benefits comes some disadvantages, like being so tall that most every unit on the board can draw LoS to the Flyer. Are you implying that GW did not think of this when designing the Flyer models and Flyer stand?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
We shouldn't equate real world common sense or examples with rules in the game. Sure, Flyers are "flying," but that means something very different in the game than IRL.
Being on a flying stand represents that they are flying. Flyers have some benefits, like being Hard to Hit and having a tremendous movement range. Along with those benefits comes some disadvantages, like being so tall that most every unit on the board can draw LoS to the Flyer. Are you implying that GW did not think of this when designing the Flyer models and Flyer stand?

FMCs have Hard to Hit and a tremendous movement range. FMCs do not have a massive stand that gives everyone LoS.
We even have a model that's designed to be a FMC (Flyrant - came out in 5th but they had to have the 6th edition rules at least in testing when it came out) and it doesn't have much of a height increase.

No, I think the base design is far more for style than any balance consideration.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
. Are you implying that GW did not think of this when designing the Flyer models and Flyer stand?

I'm saying there is no evidence that the guys who designed the miniatures had any involvement in developing how those miniatures would function rules-wise.

GW have a long, long history of designing models and rules in isolation. As a really obvious case in point, when the drop pod model was initially released, drop pods had the option to take both a storm bolter and a missile launcher. There was no possible way to do this on the model that they released, so they eventually made them an either/or when they updated the Marine codex... but somebody at GW obviously wasn't talking to somebody else when the pod and its rules were developed.