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So, interesting question: When you have a ship, do you refer to it as a 'she' even when the ship itself has a male name?

Putting the finishing touches on a sci-fi story, and ran into this little snag. Sorry for posting it here, but every place I found online to answer the question required me to make a user ID, and that's a big hassle, (and I don't feel like even more people having personal information on me) so I thought I would ask on the site I already have a user ID on. There's always a lot of military types, sci-fi types, history types, and know-it-all types (me included! ) on a wargaming forum just itching to share their knowledge that I figured this would be one-stop shopping anyway.

I know in most western cultures that ship's are referred to as 'she.' Is this true even when the ship (or boat) has a man's name? I know there are ships in service in the navy named for presidents or historical figures. Do sailors on the Andrew Jackson or the Daniel Boone call their boat a 'he' or a 'she?'

Yes, it's always feminine. Unless you're Russian, then it's always masculine.

It's because ships are an object of affection by the (traditionally) male crew. So it's established that 'she' is the traditional pronoun regardless of the name.

Which is kinda funny when you think of the especially phallic submarines that most navies have...

Okie doke. I can go with it, it just seemed weird to me to be calling something like the George Washington a 'she.' But I can dig it, nevertheless.

I can answer this one, as an ex-army guy. I thought this was worldwide before till Seaward mentioned Russians don't, so I don't know how far this extends to. It stems from the fact that most militaries have traditionally been all- or mostly-male. In fact, the US only recently passed a law allowing females to serve in active combat roles.

As a result, most soldiers don't have often contact with females, and (sadly) most of the time their equipment become that object of affection (and are trained to treat it like one), and are therefore treated very well like one too ("this is my rifle, there are many others like it, but this one is mine" for example). So it's not just ships or submarines that are referred to as "she", rifles, tanks/APCs, fixed-wing aircraft, gunships, have all been used as "shes".

Have you ever encountered a situation where the piece of equipment had a proper (male) name before? If so, did it feel weird?

 Peregrine wrote:
It's because ships are an object of affection by the (traditionally) male crew. So it's established that 'she' is the traditional pronoun regardless of the name.

"What's that in Cooling Vent #3?"

"Uhhhhhhh..."

Really, unless you're writing about future Russians (do eet) it's a she. Done.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Have you ever encountered a situation where the piece of equipment had a proper (male) name before? If so, did it feel weird?

You don't think about it, really. It still gets referred to as "she".

 Jimsolo wrote:
Have you ever encountered a situation where the piece of equipment had a proper (male) name before? If so, did it feel weird?

There's dozens of examples of ships with male names, I'm sure. The USS Abraham Lincoln, for example. If it's a ship, it's a she.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Have you ever encountered a situation where the piece of equipment had a proper (male) name before? If so, did it feel weird?

Nope, I think gender re-assigned ships should enjoy the same rights as other ships

I was just out at the GW with my brother, maybe it's different because I'm a Marine and he's Navy but we've never given calling ships with male names by female pronouns a second thought. (Submarines are "boats" by the way)

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I was just out at the GW with my brother, maybe it's different because I'm a Marine and he's Navy but we've never given calling ships with male names by female pronouns a second thought. (Submarines are "boats" by the way)

I knew that. Wheee. Thanks for the heads up-though! (That's why I referred to the subs in my original post as boats.) Side note: navy personnel on submarines: seamen or sailors? Or something weird, like mariners?

Would they not be submariners?
Though I am fairly sure Seaman is a rank (Or was at least) and sailor is just someone who crews a ship/boat.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I was just out at the GW with my brother, maybe it's different because I'm a Marine and he's Navy but we've never given calling ships with male names by female pronouns a second thought. (Submarines are "boats" by the way)

I knew that. Wheee. Thanks for the heads up-though! (That's why I referred to the subs in my original post as boats.) Side note: navy personnel on submarines: seamen or sailors? Or something weird, like mariners?

YAY! I was a submariner!

So definitions:

Seaman: Rank, E-3 to be specific, you also have Airmen if you are attached to an air-wing, or naval air base I believe. So you could say: "Seaman Jimsolo! Dog that hatch!" but most would drop the rank and just say your last name.

Everyone in the Navy could technically be referred to as a Sailor, even submariners, but we are predominantly referred to as just submariners. Your typical surface sailor would just be a sailor.

Nobody in the Navy really calls anyone "Sailor" though, I imagine "Hey Sailor" could be misconstrued , we typically call folks by their last name, unless its E-7 and up its by rank (Chief), and officers are Sir, or by position (e.g.: Weps, Nav, etc.), and the captain is always referred to as "Captain".

I am kinda happy I got that right...

I figured it'd cause ships are full of seamen.

*ba-dum-tsh!*

 Jimsolo wrote:
call their boat a 'he' or a 'she?'

Aircraft carriers are SHIPS. Frigates are SHIPS, Destroyers are SHIPS. Submarines are the only 'boats'. Boats are designed to sink (especially new Spanish ones )


Ships are generally regarded as female. So are boats.
Even in cultures where it is still regarded as "a bad thing" to have an actual 'woman' on board due to various old superstitions.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

IronWarLeg wrote:

Seaman: Rank, E-3 to be specific, you also have Airmen if you are attached to an air-wing, or naval air base I believe. So you could say: "Seaman Jimsolo! Dog that hatch!" but most would drop the rank and just say your last name.

Everyone in the Navy could technically be referred to as a Sailor, even submariners, but we are predominantly referred to as just submariners. Your typical surface sailor would just be a sailor.

Nobody in the Navy really calls anyone "Sailor" though, I imagine "Hey Sailor" could be misconstrued , we typically call folks by their last name, unless its E-7 and up its by rank (Chief), and officers are Sir, or by position (e.g.: Weps, Nav, etc.), and the captain is always referred to as "Captain".

I've always liked the brevet promotions other services 'Captains' get on board Navy ships when they are aboard.
There is only ONE Captain on board a navy ship, and he's the guy at the top of the pile.

I had a mate in the navy (I was army). He was an Able Seaman (AB). He was also a Clearance Diver. (CD). Procedure on his ship for mail call was to use rank, speciality and then initials.
His initials were E.F.G. (think about it.). AB CD EFG.
Yes, this was a subject of some mirth.
He was also (and so were most of the CDs) generally referred to as a "bubblehead" (they are considered to be somewhat less-than-sane - since they want to be in the water when explosives are involved. Most sane people DON'T).

Nah. I referred to the Big E as "the boat" - as in, "Doing laps around the boat" - plenty of times. We're not that strict about the slang. And of course American sailors use nowhere near as much nautical terminology as American Marines.

Why a ship is always a woman, according to my Grandfather (old Navy man):
There is always a great deal of bustle around her, There is usually a gang of men about, obsessing over her, She shows her topsides and hides her bottom, She must be all decked out before going anywhere, It takes a lot of paint to keep her looking good, It takes an experienced man to handle her correctly, When coming into port, she always heads for the buoys, Without a man at the helm, she is absolutely uncontrollable, She'll look after you as long as you treat her right, And the main reason- it's not the initial expense that breaks you, it's the upkeep.

A tad misogynistic, but meant in good humor.

 chromedog wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
call their boat a 'he' or a 'she?'

Aircraft carriers are SHIPS. Frigates are SHIPS, Destroyers are SHIPS. Submarines are the only 'boats'. Boats are designed to sink (especially new Spanish ones )
He was also (and so were most of the CDs) generally referred to as a "bubblehead" (they are considered to be somewhat less-than-sane - since they want to be in the water when explosives are involved. Most sane people DON'T).

I didn't know that about clearance divers. I DID know that about ships/boats. (In the sentence you quoted, I used two specific vessels as examples. Both of them are indeed submarines. ) So I learned something today anyway.

Cadian, I lolled. (As a consequence, my wife and now-awake-at-3-am-child would like an irate word with you. )

This is easy...if you used the masculine when doing a Pirate voice you would look silly.

No such problem with the feminine.

 notprop wrote:
This is easy...if you used the masculine when doing a Pirate voice you would look silly.

No such problem with the feminine.

I lolled again...this time my boy slept through it.

Maybe I should stop reading this while the baby's sleeping...

 Enigwolf wrote:
I can answer this one, as an ex-army guy. I thought this was worldwide before till Seaward mentioned Russians don't, so I don't know how far this extends to. It stems from the fact that most militaries have traditionally been all- or mostly-male. In fact, the US only recently passed a law allowing females to serve in active combat roles.

As a result, most soldiers don't have often contact with females, and (sadly) most of the time their equipment become that object of affection (and are trained to treat it like one), and are therefore treated very well like one too ("this is my rifle, there are many others like it, but this one is mine" for example). So it's not just ships or submarines that are referred to as "she", rifles, tanks/APCs, fixed-wing aircraft, gunships, have all been used as "shes".

I believe it predates any formalized navy or armed forces.

There are to main theories as to the reason:

1) Ships used to be named after people important in the captains life, who they may not see for months (or ever again) on long voyages, so this would often be the captains wife, mother or daughter.

2) Grammatical gender. This is something that dose not exist very much in modern English, but dose in many other European languages (Ask anyone who has studied French if it is La or Le and why it matters if a teapot is male or female). Ship/Boat in many European languages with grammatical gender is feminine. It is theorized that it could be a carry over from that.

The easiest answer is because sailors are weird.

And they have name plates on back of their pants.....


edit

yep.....branch bashing