Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I apologize for all the questions lately. I just want to make sure I'm doing everything according to rules.

So on the wiki under TO:Camo is ... "Allows the miniature the same Defensive Camouflage that CH: Camouflage provides, but a negative Modifier of –6 is applied if someone intends to attack him."

So I go check CH: Camo and see "To act against a Camouflage Marker, enemies must succeed in a Discover roll with a -3 Modifier." and "... substituting the Camouflage Maker and losing all the advantages of Camouflage in Movement and Combat, but still complicating any BS Roll against him with a Modifier of -3."

So my question is whether the -6 from TO:Camo is in reference to the discover roll needed before an attack (assuming he's not revealed already) or the BS modifier after he's been revealed? Or is it possibly both?

Discover is not an attack AFAIK. To the best of my knowledge, the -6 BS Mod is applied against the attack BS roll specifically. The discover roll is covered under "Allows the miniature the same Defensive Camouflage that CH: Camouflage provides...".

TO Camo replaces all -3 in the Camo rules with -6. So shooting, discovery and so on are at -6.

Lol uh oh, looks like we got a difference of opinion... I kinda read it as -6 to both discover and BS... but that's me. It's in regards to my opponents PanO Specialist Sargent so not like I'm interpreting to my advantage. I thought it was worded weird on the Wiki.

From Yasbir on the official forum, regarding that same question :

Another bad traslation. In spanish it says;

3.Camuflaje Defensivo TO. Permite a la miniatura efectuar el mismo Camuflaje Defensivo que CO: Camuflaje, pero con Modificadores negativos de –6 para poder actuar contra ella.

where in english says attack , in spanish says actuar= act .( so, it includes discover)

TO Defensive Camouflage: Allows the miniature the same Defensive Camouflage that CH: Camouflage provides, but a negative Modifier of –6 is applied if someone intends to attack him.

Yes, this will be a FAQ.

So yes, it is -6 to discover and attack rolls

 Von Skyfury wrote:
From Yasbir on the official forum, regarding that same question :

Another bad traslation. In spanish it says;

3.Camuflaje Defensivo TO. Permite a la miniatura efectuar el mismo Camuflaje Defensivo que CO: Camuflaje, pero con Modificadores negativos de –6 para poder actuar contra ella.

where in english says attack , in spanish says actuar= act .( so, it includes discover)

TO Defensive Camouflage: Allows the miniature the same Defensive Camouflage that CH: Camouflage provides, but a negative Modifier of –6 is applied if someone intends to attack him.

Yes, this will be a FAQ.

So yes, it is -6 to discover and attack rolls

Thank you. That's what I was kinda thinking as I figured it was supposed to kinda be in line with the initial discover roll of Basic Impersonation. But yeah TO:Camo is pretty nasty. It's like a Impersonation discover roll with ODDs afterwards.

Gotta love those auto hitting templates =P

 Von Skyfury wrote:
Gotta love those auto hitting templates =P

Agree, unfortunately I don't think the Hassassin Bahram has access to very many direct template weapons. I think the Muttawi'ah (E/Marats and Chain rifles) and Asawira (Nanopulsers) are about it. Admittedly those are both great units, but haven't bought any yet, they're next on my list of things to buy.

Don't forget Camo units don't get their bonus vs CC.
Get a Fiday next to him and wish him luck =)

 Von Skyfury wrote:
Don't forget Camo units don't get their bonus vs CC.
Get a Fiday next to him and wish him luck =)

Lol not trying to Hijack my own thread, but yeah, thus far when dealing with ODDs my strategy has been using sneaky Fidays and Mines, Mines, and more Mines!

If you're using Hassassin Bahraim, do note that your Heavy Rocket Launcher Muyibs also have template+fire weapons. You can perform speculative fire with it against a camouflaged target (because it's a template weapon), and if you simply manage to HIT your target, their TO:Camo is effectuvely disabled for the rest of the game (because it's a fire weapon).

Of course, with most things, mines are the answer to most problems you'll face. Muyibs have those too.

 Absolutionis wrote:
If you're using Hassassin Bahraim, do note that your Heavy Rocket Launcher Muyibs also have template+fire weapons. You can perform speculative fire with it against a camouflaged target (because it's a template weapon), and if you simply manage to HIT your target, their TO:Camo is effectuvely disabled for the rest of the game (because it's a fire weapon).

Of course, with most things, mines are the answer to most problems you'll face. Muyibs have those too.

Oh nice, I didn't realize that about fire ammo. Yeah I tend to take at least one Muyib with mines, then at least a Fiday with mines... lol so there's usually quite a few of them on the field.

 Von Skyfury wrote:
From Yasbir on the official forum, regarding that same question :

Another bad traslation. In spanish it says;

3.Camuflaje Defensivo TO. Permite a la miniatura efectuar el mismo Camuflaje Defensivo que CO: Camuflaje, pero con Modificadores negativos de –6 para poder actuar contra ella.

where in english says attack , in spanish says actuar= act .( so, it includes discover)

TO Defensive Camouflage: Allows the miniature the same Defensive Camouflage that CH: Camouflage provides, but a negative Modifier of –6 is applied if someone intends to attack him.

Yes, this will be a FAQ.

So yes, it is -6 to discover and attack rolls

...wow, that's a bit of a sensitive translation error. Thanks though, and sorry for the misinformation

 Absolutionis wrote:
You can perform speculative fire with it against a camouflaged target (because it's a template weapon), and if you simply manage to HIT your target, their TO:Camo is effectuvely disabled for the rest of the game (because it's a fire weapon).

Um, the HRL description doesn't mention parabolic or speculative fire so it is a normal BS weapon i'm afraid. Same as a missile launcher which also has a circular template but fires normally. And when you say 'camouflaged target' you don't mean a camo marker do you? Any camo unit would need to be discovered before you can shoot at them. But yeah if you hit them with the template the fire will mess them up!

DIRECT template weapons allow intuitive attacks.
Missile and rocket launchers are NOT DT weapons.

DT weapons are things like chain rifles, light and heavy flamethrowers, mines (using teardrop).

The others are just weapons that USE a template at point of impact (missiles/rockets, grenades, shotguns, plasma).

Mines aren't Direct Template weapons, they just allow for Intuitive attack. Also you can Intuitive Attack a mine and have it blow with the Circular Template (as long as you don't have friendlies in the template area).

So you can't place the mine if it would be possible to hit a marker with any of the modes (circular or teardrop) unless you succeed in an Intuitive attack.

Direct Template weapons are mentioned to use X Direct Template, such as the Nanopulser "uses a Small Teardrop Direct Template"

 kaapelikala wrote:
Also you can Intuitive Attack a mine and have it blow with the Circular Template (as long as you don't have friendlies in the template area).

Minor correction - you can place a Mine using Intuitive Attack, and then later on when an enemy models or marker does anything in range you can trigger the Mine. Intuitive Attack does not let you set off the Mine.

That's what I meant, just worded it badly. The point was that it can also be blown with the circular template after the Intuitive attack (after an enemy action or ARO of course), not just the teardrop.

I'll blame the cat.

New Infinity player here with a related question so I thought I would post it to keep the answers in one place.

I'm a bit confused on defensive camouflage bonuses. Is the -3/-6 to BS only during an action where the target was in camo and discovered, or is this always in effect? In other words if a unit with the camo skill is moving as a model and not a marker does it get the benefit of the BS modifier to attackers?

Thank you!

@ Millertime Its a -3/ -6 modifier to discover a camo/ TO marker. Once its discovered you still apply the -3/ -6 modifiers to any shooting at the model.

Always in effect. So yes.

To discover, and afterwards, to shoot at them.

If you hit ANY Camo model with fire ammo or flamethrowers, you drop their camo to mimetism (which is a -3).

Not really that big a deal for ordinary camo (it's only a -3 normally anyway) but it DOES take away their ability to recamouflage themselves again for the game.