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I was reading the rumor thread on the new Apoc units in next months WD and it translated into pages of complaining about 2 things:

That Khorne tank looks ridiculous

I wish I could use Apoc in regular 40k

And it got me thinking (Point B not Point A) Is there really a reason that Apoc is separated from 40K. Now I'm probably not a good one to answer this, our little gaming group has a House rules regarding army construction that kicked in when 6th edition hit.

No Flyers in any army under 1000 pts, exceptions can be made for FMC's (Some armies kinda rely on them)

This got me thinking, wouldn't it be an interesting idea to simply add 2 slots to the FoC to represent assets used in larger engagements. For example a 1500 point chaos war-band may have 1 or 2 helldrakes, their unlikely to have 3. Similarly a 2000 point IG company would probably have access to a Baneblade. Obviously some armies could modify their FoC based on special characters the way they do now, for example an Elysian drop trooper special character might increase an IG armies air assets.

I suppose this could end up in Proposed Rules but really i wanted to get other people opinions and how they would deal with superheavies in normal 40k.

Most of the problem with the super heavies is that they use SP rather than HP. These do not translate exactly and there are a handful of additional rules as well.

I have also found that most of the super heavies can be somewhat unbalancing as bringing ID, ignore cover, large blasts, with D-strength is actually fairly common in Appoc. These weapons really mess over some armies and have no real effect on others. The game balance on the Appoc units is not great but doesn't matter when things can be spammed like in Appoc.

BTW you are aware that a helldrake is a normal 40K unit right? CSM have a great variety of Appoc units such as

It really depends on the superheavy units.

The "small" superheavies (Malcador, Macharius, etc) have 2 SP and none of the really nasty Apocalypse-scale weapons. For example, my Malcador Annihilator has a TL LC turret, LC sponsons, and a hull demolisher cannon. For 300+ points it's worse than an equal point value in Leman Russes. I've used it in normal games and all it really does is soak up fire and die. So allowing these in even a 1000 point game would probably be just fine, just make them cost a heavy support slot.

The "normal" superheavies (Baneblade, etc) have 3-5 SP and usually one Apocalypse-scale gun along with multiple smaller guns. They're also a lot more expensive, so it's kind of questionable whether you really want to take them. They'd be too much for a small game, but in a 1500+ point game where your opponent knows that superheavies will be present they aren't going to be too bad. If you can handle 3x LRBTs you can handle a Baneblade. I'd allow them in a larger game where we've agreed in advance to include them.

The problem comes in with titans. They've got 3+ SP, void shields, multiple Apocalypse-scale guns, and insanely cheap point costs. A Shadowsword costs 450 points for a single 5" blast STR D shot. A Warhound with dual turbolasers costs 750 points and has four identical shots. So for significantly less than double the points you get four times the firepower. Which just happens to be the same cost as a Warhound with dual mega bolters, despite the bolter option being much weaker. And it only gets worse from there, the larger titans have been blatantly underpriced to get people to buy/build them. These have no place in a non-Apocalypse game, they will completely dominate it and even if they don't table the entire opposing army the game will consist of nothing but "shoot the titan".

I really thought this was going to be about a 40K Big Brother. Abaddon is in the diary room.

 shamikebab wrote:
I really thought this was going to be about a 40K Big Brother. Abaddon is in the diary room.

+1

Apoc isn't just 40k's big brother. 40k is apoc's *special* little brother.

I would love to see restrictions on units based on points cost. Helldrakes are a great example, if it was one per 1000 the game would be better off for it.

 ansacs wrote:
Most of the problem with the super heavies is that they use SP rather than HP. These do not translate exactly and there are a handful of additional rules as well.

I have also found that most of the super heavies can be somewhat unbalancing as bringing ID, ignore cover, large blasts, with D-strength is actually fairly common in Appoc. These weapons really mess over some armies and have no real effect on others. The game balance on the Appoc units is not great but doesn't matter when things can be spammed like in Appoc.

BTW you are aware that a helldrake is a normal 40K unit right? CSM have a great variety of Appoc units such as

Sorry if I was a little unclear this isn't just in regard to Apoc units. the House rule I was talking about was to work around the fact that while flyers are a great idea and were a great addition, having them as not part of a force org chart creates a headache. If there were a points scaling slot for them in normal lists I think it would help with certain lists that are just plain not fun to go against.

I see your point on super heavies though the problem really does seem to be at titan level, but then if your using a point scaling FoC slot for Super heavies then by the time youve hit the 750 point to include Titans your talking 3000 points+ which is when they appear in Apoc anyway. This change would simply allow the smaller and normal super heavies to get more game time Such as a single baneblade as the centerpiece to a 2000 point guard army or the same with an ork stompa.

danp164 wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
Most of the problem with the super heavies is that they use SP rather than HP. These do not translate exactly and there are a handful of additional rules as well.

I have also found that most of the super heavies can be somewhat unbalancing as bringing ID, ignore cover, large blasts, with D-strength is actually fairly common in Appoc. These weapons really mess over some armies and have no real effect on others. The game balance on the Appoc units is not great but doesn't matter when things can be spammed like in Appoc.

BTW you are aware that a helldrake is a normal 40K unit right? CSM have a great variety of Appoc units such as

Sorry if I was a little unclear this isn't just in regard to Apoc units. the House rule I was talking about was to work around the fact that while flyers are a great idea and were a great addition, having them as not part of a force org chart creates a headache[u]. If there were a points scaling slot for them in normal lists I think it would help with certain lists that are just plain not fun to go against.

I see your point on super heavies though the problem really does seem to be at titan level, but then if your using a point scaling FoC slot for Super heavies then by the time youve hit the 750 point to include Titans your talking 3000 points+ which is when they appear in Apoc anyway. This change would simply allow the smaller and normal super heavies to get more game time Such as a single baneblade as the centerpiece to a 2000 point guard army or the same with an ork stompa.

Flyers are in the FOC though.... where did you get that idea from?

and as to a single baneblade they are 600pts before the upgrades... thats a big fat chunk of points at 2k...the fact that it has 9HP makes it a bit crude.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

danp164 wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
Most of the problem with the super heavies is that they use SP rather than HP. These do not translate exactly and there are a handful of additional rules as well.

I have also found that most of the super heavies can be somewhat unbalancing as bringing ID, ignore cover, large blasts, with D-strength is actually fairly common in Appoc. These weapons really mess over some armies and have no real effect on others. The game balance on the Appoc units is not great but doesn't matter when things can be spammed like in Appoc.

BTW you are aware that a helldrake is a normal 40K unit right? CSM have a great variety of Appoc units such as

Sorry if I was a little unclear this isn't just in regard to Apoc units. the House rule I was talking about was to work around the fact that while flyers are a great idea and were a great addition, having them as not part of a force org chart creates a headache[u]. If there were a points scaling slot for them in normal lists I think it would help with certain lists that are just plain not fun to go against.

I see your point on super heavies though the problem really does seem to be at titan level, but then if your using a point scaling FoC slot for Super heavies then by the time youve hit the 750 point to include Titans your talking 3000 points+ which is when they appear in Apoc anyway. This change would simply allow the smaller and normal super heavies to get more game time Such as a single baneblade as the centerpiece to a 2000 point guard army or the same with an ork stompa.

Flyers are in the FOC though.... where did you get that idea from?

and as to a single baneblade they are 600pts before the upgrades... thats a big fat chunk of points at 2k...the fact that it has 9HP makes it a bit crude.

Ok I guess I'm not explaining myself well enough, as it stands flyers occupy either fast attack or heavy support choices in the current Force Org chart, what I'm asking is what would people think if flyers occupied THEIR OWN slot on a scaling level based on points, same with certain super heavies from Apocalypse occupying THEIR OWN slot on a sliding point scale.

And while I'm sure taking a super heavy is not the best tactical option all the time, a lot of people do HAVE stompas and baneblades and I'm sure it would be nice to get to use them a little more often

So for every 750 points you can have 1 flyer? I wouldn't mind that at all.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
So for every 750 points you can have 1 flyer? I wouldn't mind that at all.

thats kinda how id think people write lists anyway, i mean with flyers being say helldrake for example 170 pts, thats about 25%, if you spent more then you might get into trouble...

A lot of the stuff in Apoc can be tweaked slightly and work fine in normal 40k. A lot of it is good as it is, just make it cost a bit more (grot tanks are underpriced as hell lol) and remove the apoc gun options, because they are ALL overpowered against non apoc units.

Some units wouldnt be in the normal game because their entire existence is to be overpowered. Meaning Titans and bigger wouldnt exist, atleast as they do in apoc. The model can work it would just need overhaul on weapon choices to be fair.

That could completely ruin some luftwaffe air dominancy style lists and would create a one sidedness with fliers since some fliers can be spammed but are weak and other fliers are extremely strong or durable but can't be spammed so if put on a sliding scale some races would always win air battles. Exe a stormraven vs a Night Scythe, even? No, Night Scythes are meant to be in multiple numbers.

Perhaps a percentage point scale on fliers like in fantasy

So say only 50% of your points can be spent on fliers which is still handicapping the way some armies operate exe necrons struggle in the standard way of battle (I put my rhino here and drive up to your chimera there) compared to what they can do in the air.

 A GumyBear wrote:
That could completely ruin some luftwaffe air dominancy style lists and would create a one sidedness with fliers since some fliers can be spammed but are weak and other fliers are extremely strong or durable but can't be spammed so if put on a sliding scale some races would always win air battles. Exe a stormraven vs a Night Scythe, even? No, Night Scythes are meant to be in multiple numbers.

Perhaps a percentage point scale on fliers like in fantasy

So say only 50% of your points can be spent on fliers which is still handicapping the way some armies operate exe necrons struggle in the standard way of battle (I put my rhino here and drive up to your chimera there) compared to what they can do in the air.

True, as I pointed out previously some armies would need new special characters to move around the flyer FoC slot but the point is that you should have to pay for that kind of dedication to something that you know by default is very powerful against another persons army. At its core 40k is a ground combat game and anything that enhances that feel is good, having air support to call in and transport around is a good thing but several of the air force armies out there focus very little on the ground combat at all except to steal objectives in the last turn with flyer transports.

Lets be honest a flyer is a lot harder to down than a normal armored vehicle, even if it isn't as resilient if you haven't got the particular weapon you need you may as well be throwing raspberries in their general direction, now the same can be argued for an armored vehicle except anti armour weaponry is taken as standard in most lists Anti air weapons aren't even available to some races without taking an ADL.

As regards moving apocalypse down to 40k level why not just include modified rules for super heavies in 40k codexes, then people who want to play super battles with mutually OP units can, but the poor guy who bought a aneblade can actually use the damned thing in a normal game.

danp164 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
That could completely ruin some luftwaffe air dominancy style lists and would create a one sidedness with fliers since some fliers can be spammed but are weak and other fliers are extremely strong or durable but can't be spammed so if put on a sliding scale some races would always win air battles. Exe a stormraven vs a Night Scythe, even? No, Night Scythes are meant to be in multiple numbers.

Perhaps a percentage point scale on fliers like in fantasy

So say only 50% of your points can be spent on fliers which is still handicapping the way some armies operate exe necrons struggle in the standard way of battle (I put my rhino here and drive up to your chimera there) compared to what they can do in the air.

True, as I pointed out previously some armies would need new special characters to move around the flyer FoC slot but the point is that you should have to pay for that kind of dedication to something that you know by default is very powerful against another persons army. At its core 40k is a ground combat game and anything that enhances that feel is good, having air support to call in and transport around is a good thing but several of the air force armies out there focus very little on the ground combat at all except to steal objectives in the last turn with flyer transports.

Lets be honest a flyer is a lot harder to down than a normal armored vehicle, even if it isn't as resilient if you haven't got the particular weapon you need you may as well be throwing raspberries in their general direction, now the same can be argued for an armored vehicle except anti armour weaponry is taken as standard in most lists Anti air weapons aren't even available to some races without taking an ADL.

As regards moving apocalypse down to 40k level why not just include modified rules for super heavies in 40k codexes, then people who want to play super battles with mutually OP units can, but the poor guy who bought a aneblade can actually use the damned thing in a normal game.

if you want to run a baneblade at low points games, just run a 3k point apoc match, drop FOC and just go crazy, apoc doesnt need to be 10,000 points a side... then anyone can run ANYTHING at all.....

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

danp164 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
That could completely ruin some luftwaffe air dominancy style lists and would create a one sidedness with fliers since some fliers can be spammed but are weak and other fliers are extremely strong or durable but can't be spammed so if put on a sliding scale some races would always win air battles. Exe a stormraven vs a Night Scythe, even? No, Night Scythes are meant to be in multiple numbers.

Perhaps a percentage point scale on fliers like in fantasy

So say only 50% of your points can be spent on fliers which is still handicapping the way some armies operate exe necrons struggle in the standard way of battle (I put my rhino here and drive up to your chimera there) compared to what they can do in the air.

True, as I pointed out previously some armies would need new special characters to move around the flyer FoC slot but the point is that you should have to pay for that kind of dedication to something that you know by default is very powerful against another persons army. At its core 40k is a ground combat game and anything that enhances that feel is good, having air support to call in and transport around is a good thing but several of the air force armies out there focus very little on the ground combat at all except to steal objectives in the last turn with flyer transports.

Lets be honest a flyer is a lot harder to down than a normal armored vehicle, even if it isn't as resilient if you haven't got the particular weapon you need you may as well be throwing raspberries in their general direction, now the same can be argued for an armored vehicle except anti armour weaponry is taken as standard in most lists Anti air weapons aren't even available to some races without taking an ADL.

As regards moving apocalypse down to 40k level why not just include modified rules for super heavies in 40k codexes, then people who want to play super battles with mutually OP units can, but the poor guy who bought a aneblade can actually use the damned thing in a normal game.

if you want to run a baneblade at low points games, just run a 3k point apoc match, drop FOC and just go crazy, apoc doesnt need to be 10,000 points a side... then anyone can run ANYTHING at all.....

But then there is that necron player (me) who runs a pylon imotekh zandy and a horde of warriors with the undying legion formation and down your baneblade t1 and then 3 monoliths pop everything else with a doomsday monolith formation

so wait, you want more necron cheese very nice... i mean honestly... if people want to run lower points apoc games its doable, but if people pull your stunt then guess who wont get a lot of games

Do Necrons have their own superheavies yet besides the Pylon? I've been waiting for the Medusa V tomb stalker to get a model and rules for nearly a decade.

 Kain wrote:
Do Necrons have their own superheavies yet besides the Pylon? I've been waiting for the Medusa V tomb stalker to get a model and rules for nearly a decade.

Well, they're getting the Monolith thing..