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I can't decide between CSM or Deamons as my primary force. I want to have as many khorne units as possible for fluffy and assualt, doesn't really matter though.

I like deamons for the troop chioces (BL) and Flying Circus/Hound Spam.

I like CSM for Helldrake spam, and other stuff...

Which primary will provide the most competitive assualt force?

Any throughts and comments about anything Chaos please throw my way, I need the knowledge!

Im actually playing around with the same thing. How about:

Possesseed x20 - Icon of excess, MoS - 615

Some chaos daemon able to bring the grimoire of true names to (potentially, on a 3+) give them 3+ invoul.

I would gak my pants if this came at me. 20x CC monsters with 3+ invoul AND FnP... That gak cray.

Edit: sry. its 615

That is pretty nasty, you could also have Karanak with them to scout 12 inch forward, but is all that worth the points and will it work? Possessed are better now, I will take a look into them. 600 points is a lot though...

I am sure you agree that Flesh Hounds are a much, 1 unit if you ally deamons, and at least 2 if you primary deamons I would perfer 3. I ran the hounds the other day for the first time and it was awesome. They are an instant threat and everything is poured into them to kill them, and if they don't bother it is a lot of damage early.

I played one ally unit with CSM/Khorne, it worked well.

The question is are Helldrakes worth to make CSM your primary, and because CSM is primary what troops do you run needing at least two. KB are good, but not the best IMO, to be effective they need to be in raiders..

Any thoughts?

Oh wait, Karanak can't be with them can he, he has deamonic instability, and they don't.

Refresh my memory on Grimoire for hearld again, I don't have a codex with me.

I would take marines as my primary any day, as it prevents rolls on the gakky warpstorm table.

Good Point.

I again completely marines should be the primary force.

Knowing CSM is the primary, for maximum assault what HQ(s) would you prefer. I am guessing KB is the best assault troop, meaning Kharn or a Khorne lord are the choice. Khorne Lords can be very nasty, but Khorne provides Hatred to the unit, meaning re-roll hitting Zerkers, which can do some damage. DPs are always a option too.

Also, are Zerkers in raiders a must now?

I really like having Kharn giving his unit hatred, to re-roll hits, I think paired correctly with the right unit can do some serious damage in a raider.

CannedKhorne wrote:
That is pretty nasty, you could also have Karanak with them to scout 12 inch forward, but is all that worth the points and will it work? Possessed are better now, I will take a look into them. 600 points is a lot though...

I am sure you agree that Flesh Hounds are a much, 1 unit if you ally deamons, and at least 2 if you primary deamons I would perfer 3. I ran the hounds the other day for the first time and it was awesome. They are an instant threat and everything is poured into them to kill them, and if they don't bother it is a lot of damage early.

I played one ally unit with CSM/Khorne, it worked well.

The question is are Helldrakes worth to make CSM your primary, and because CSM is primary what troops do you run needing at least two. KB are good, but not the best IMO, to be effective they need to be in raiders..

Any thoughts?

Oh wait, Karanak can't be with them can he, he has deamonic instability, and they don't.

Refresh my memory on Grimoire for hearld again, I don't have a codex with me.

Grimoire gives 2+ to the invoul to any friendly daemon with 24" or 12". 5+ daemon becomes 3+.

You could have a slaneesh lord with a steed to outflank those fukcers.

Wow, that is pretty badass. Do Deamons have to be the primary force for this to have effect on the Deamon units?

Outflanking the hounds would be cool, but that are so fast already it won't matter. I can't outflank the KB, a deamon unit can't join a CSM unit.

Huron would be cool as an HQ to try and infiltrate some KB up the table, just an idea not sure if it will work at all. I am thinking Kharn or a Chaos Khorne Lord is a required HQ.

If I want to incorporate Grimoire into my allied force, this means I can't take a Bloodthrister because my HQ are the hearlds. Any thoughts on that comparisons?


More than likely this list will be built around 3 helldrakes, being that CSM is the primary force.

Marines as primary:
- Multiple Heldrakes
- Cult units become Troops, ie multiple units of Berzerkers
- No Warpstorm table

Daemons as primary:
- Allows Seekers and Flesh Hounds
- Access to multiple Heralds
- Warpstorm table

I think that FOC-wise, Chaos Marines come out better as a primary. Everyone loves multiple Heldrakes and it would allow you to take a proper contingent of Marines / Cultists with the Bloodletters acting in support. Flesh Hounds make a tasty deathstar and so you only really need a single unit, provided you take the Grimoire on the one Herald you are entitled to.

As a final point, remember that you cannot combine Daemonic and non-Daemonic units. A Daemon cannot lead a mortal unit, and a mortal character cannot join Daemons.

Yeah, a Hearld with Grimoire and hounds is a deathstar unit. Is the use of the hearld worth it instead of a Bloodthrister as the allied HQ.

Also, I could have two hearld if wanted, can another deathstar unit be made?

CSM, I agree are the best primary force.

Quick question, Calvary moves the same as beast, and does the Hearld have move through cover along with the hounds?

CannedKhorne wrote:
Yeah, a Hearld with Grimoire and hounds is a deathstar unit. Is the use of the hearld worth it instead of a Bloodthrister as the allied HQ.

Also, I could have two hearld if wanted, can another deathstar unit be made?

CSM, I agree are the best primary force.

Quick question, Calvary moves the same as beast, and does the Hearld have move through cover along with the hounds?

cavalry doesent have move through cover. It moves 2d6 with dangerous terrain tests.

Ok, makes sense.

What are your thoughts about Kharn being the HQ, him and his squad re-rolling hits is a pretty strong unit in combat. With 3 Helldrakes flying around, they should move up the field safely in a LR.

I just don't see myself wanteding to run more than one zerker squad with Kharn. Another squad I don't see the reason for... I want to spam zerkers, its just not the same.

Cavalry ignores terrain for movement, but takes dangerous tests if moves through terrain (like a bike) BRB p48. And like beasts, they also have fleet. So a cavalry lord/herald can keep up fine with beasty khorne dogs or spawn.

I too run a khorne CSM/Daemon army, and am currently playing with primaries. I've found that allied daemons, a bloodthirster is just too good to pass up, carrying the grimior, and greater reward (either a roll, or the rampage blade). A single allied herald is just.. meh, especially if you want the grimior, because he can only carry 30points of rewards. No fancy ap2 weapons for him if you want the book.

I would strongly consider daemons for primary if you want to go full-assault. You can ally in a helldrake or spawn unit, cheap cultists for backfield scoring, and a chaos lord to lead spawn, or a daemon prince with black mace for a solo assault threat.

Daemons primary gives you the ability to take multiple heralds, multiple big units of daemons (including 2 or 3 units of hounds), and the warp storm table. The warp storm table is half the reason I go deamons primary as often as I do, to be honest. It acts as kind of a virtual shooting phase; 50% of the time you're rolling one of the "a god takes pot shots at the battlefield" results, and these are much more dangerous to your opponent then they are to you. Be sure to take a few unit champions, however, to give you better odds if you roll the result where a random character takes an instability check on 3d6.

If you are trying the Grimoire trick on a squad of CSM Possessed or Warp Talons, be sure to give them the Mark of Tzeentch, so they wind up with a 2+ Invulnerable save when it works!

I also agree that the bloodthrister is a better HQ choice for deamon allies.

If I want to have a heavy assault army, how would you reccomend the CSM troop choice. Are KB worth it now, or are points spent elsewhere better like possesed running with the bloodthrister?

Kharn and 9KB in a raider seems like a staple to me. They all have hatred, rage, and FC. I think it would make a strong unit to build around. Any thoughts?

The sad thing is, plague marines are actually better cc units than berzerkers in the new book

Berserkers are pretty terrible. Plagues are much better. If you want to keep all-Khorne, CSM with MoK are playable, though not amazing.

Yeah thats the thing, if I am going to go mainly assault what troop should I use for CSM as primary.

Idk...

If you want to go points-efficient, I'd say 1-2 units of CSM with MoK, and 2-3 units of cultists for cheap scoring.

Then take a big unit of Bloodletters as an allied Troop (they need to be big or they're too fragile), and a big unit of Flesh Hounds, which are at least Denial (and scoring in The Scouring).

So CSM with MOK are better than KB now?

I can change my list up a lot then, I don't have to have kharn/Khorne lord as my HQ.

I was planning on having two squads of 15 BL and a pack of 20 hounds for allies. In addition to a bloodthrister.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overall my plan is to have the army built around these staples.

3 Helldrakes
20 Hounds
2 squads of 15 BLs
Bloodthrister

Those are the only staples so far... coming up with CSM seems to be the trouble for me, Haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obliterator look good, I own 9 already...
Maybe make my troops purely shooting and just use deamons as assault.

How are Maulerfiend, pretty cheap points wise, put effective?

Cultist spam...?

I don't have any HS Staples, which are one of the best Chaos options, but which one... hmmm haha.

Yeah, the Codex: CSM Troops are underwhelming this time around, sadly, aside from Plague Marines (with Nurgle Lord) and Cultists, which are mostly good just for being cheap scorers. CSMs aren't so much better than Berserkers except inasmuch as they are less expensive, because neither is very good.

Oblits are good, although Mark of Nurgle is nearly mandatory. So if you're staying Khorne, you're better off taking units of Havocs, which are inexpensive for the firepower they bring. Maulerfiends are good in multiples alongside other fast assault threats.

Yeah that seems to be the case. Having BL in the list, that works for me.

Obliterators stay reasonable close to a grimoire BT could be a competitive build.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, I will run Nurgle Obliterator, Ill just paint them as Khorne.

I am doubting Maulerfiend ability to deal the damage like obliterators can. 9 oblitz and 3 helldrakes is from serious firepower. Having a BT, and maybe 2 Princes as HQ getting grimoire... WoW.

That sounds nasty...

Ive been Taking multiple Khorne Heralds on Juggers and running them with hounds, that combined with hatred or rage is scary for any back field, my buddy and i couldnt agree what save does the grimoire give to the flesh hounds

I vote CSM as a primary, but only because this allows you to have both the Heldrake and the Spawn. Personally I feel that three HD's in an assault list weakenes the inherent strength of a themed assault heavy army as HD's can't lock the opponent in assault.

I swear by lists with a central theme but a wide diversity in threats however. I rarely think that spam makes for a better army. Taking the same unit twice? Sure, 3+ of the same unit however make for rock-paper-scissors gaming.

To illustrate, my current CSM/Daemon list is roughy the following:

CSM:
260 Daemon Prince, MoS, Wings, Power Armour, Black Mace
160 10 CSM, AC, Melta
160 10 CSM, AC, Melta
180 5 Chaos Spawn, MoN
170 Heldrake, Baleflamer
125 Maulerfiend
Daemons:
295 LoC, ML3 (Divination), LR, ER (mostly Portalglyph)
90 10 Plaguebearers
144 9 Fleshhounds
165 Soulgrinder, MoK, Phlegm
1749 points

Cilithan

if I were to ally with deamons (which I want to do), would a hearld with dogs and some BLs be better than a BT...

BT vs. Hearld for Points??

I recently maybe a month ago started daemons to use with my CSM, ive only played one game so far and the dogs with heralds, and BL worked tremendously against the tau i face, What helped me was having jucier targets on the board and he focused most of his shots on the juicy targets. the dogs went to town in his backfield even with overwatch, and the BL captured

Yeah a Herald/Hound combination is Badass. But a BT flying around the table is so tempting instead of the herald.

The Hounds are a must, but the herald isn't. I am still debating though...

I've been using daemons lately -- mostly because it lets me take 2 greater daemons.

Greater daemons are much better in game than they appear on paper. If you get the right combination of gifts/psychic powers one of them can crush huge parts of your opponents army.

Using Daemons as primary or ally force?

I have been consider running a CSM DP, and a BT ally...
Hard to make a effective DP for low points though.

After playing a few games, I think that the daemons DP are better than the CSM ones.

While CSM DPs can get the black mace -- which is extremely good -- the gifts the daemon DPs can easily throw them over the top in terms of killyness.

DP for both are too many points. Khorne Lords/Heralds or a BT is better points spent.