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Anyway, time to bust out my Elves, this list is basically putting togeather a lot of units I like and have a lot of experience with, and testing to see how they have carried over to the new Codex/ Ultimately I feel like the codex is largely the same, with some minor improvments accross the board (for the most part, I think many of the exarchs were severely nerfed). Anyway. 1850 Elves!

(143) Autarch- Warp Jump Generator, Banshee Mask, Fusion Gun, Chain Sword, Shard of Anaris
(120) Farseer- Jetbike, Singing Spear
(55) Warlock- Jetbike, Singing Spear

(255) 5 Fire Dragons : Wave Serpent- tl Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
(255) 5 Fire Dragons : Wave Serpent- tl Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields

(60) 5 Rangers
(60) 5 Rangers
(122) 6 Windrider Jetbikes- 2 Shuriken Cannon
(282) 9 Dire Avengers- Exarch, Shimmer Shield + Power Maul : Wave Serpent- tl Scatter Laser, Holofields

(131) 7 Warp Spiders

(150) Falcon- Bright Lance, Holofields
(150) Falcon- Bright Lance, Holofields
(65) War Walker- Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

For the Autarch I wanted to go with the Shard of Anaris because it makes him a pretty solid warlord slayer. While it is true that the ap value isn't that good, flesh bane + instant death + rending in challenges means one failed save and bam dead, combined with Banshee Mask + Plasma Grenades all but ensuring the Autarch Swings first. Sure you need to be careful of things with Eternal Warrior and to a lesser extent 2+ saves, but against things like Chaos Lords who are often rocking only a 3+ armour save (Bikes, or Mounts) this weapon is extremely dangerous. I am annoyed that he can be randomly sucked into the Warp now, and because of that I should really look into mounting him on a Jetbike, but whatever. Its also lame that he lost his generic CCW, so now you have to buy a chainsword to trade for the shard to still get pistol + ccw, blah at least its only a 3 point tax.

I am aware of the argument that a split off Jetbike Warlock is type infantry(charachter) and thus is forbidden from moving like a Jetbike. I think this is dumb, and will argue that when combined with the rules for Eldar Jetbike he is still Jetbike (Charachter) when attached to Windriders- since the Eldar jetbike toggles unit type from infantry to character so I argue that the split makes him infantry(character) which is then toggled to jetbike(character) when buying the upgrade. Anyway, I am nearly certain the FAQ will fix this if it is indeed actually an issue.

Rangers at this point are basically a scoring upgrade for my Falcons (note they are the same price as old DAVU). I am really excited for bs4, merily blasting away with 3 s8 ap2 shots and a 4+ jink- will be fun. The Rangers can hang around and provide long range support as well, or be in Falcons as needed. I ended up converting my Fire Prisms into Falcons because of the transport capacity and long range anti tank, now that Prisms are better I may switch back, but I'll play with both and make the call later.

I put Chin Cannons on the Fire Dragon Transports due to the increased proximity to the enemy, where I will likely want to be able to shrug melta pens into glances so as to not risk a 50% chance of destruction. The Shuriken Cannon then still lets me fire 2 weapons and keep the shields protection up. Sure I'll still probably go down to hull point drain, but forcing the opponent to churn through all 3 hullpoints can still be really helpful.

I am a bit shakey on the Dire Avengers, and will most likely drop them down to 5 man in favor of something more deadly. That said I want to try a generalist combat unit of avengers to take advantage of shoot an' run and the new bladestorm, and the buff to Shimmer Shield giving a straight up 5++ to the squad is nice. We'll see how these guys work out for me.

As much as I want to try out the new Crimson Hunter, av10/10/10 is really frail, for a flier which costs at least 160 points. Maybe I will need it for dogfighting, I'm not sure. I will definitely pick one up in the near future, and experiment it, but I want to see where my current units stand first. hopefully Laser Lock + Serpent Shield Burst will provide enough anti air to get by. Also because vehicles do not have an initiative, I think the Warp Spiders will be s7 against them, which means guide or prescience on the Warp Spiders can also attack air.

Oh what fun!

Got a chance to run with this list the other day, its somewhat crazy how much more shooty Eldar have gotten. the Bladestorm and Monofiliment rules make Dire Avengers and Warp Spiders considerably more dangerous, the Serpent Shields are excellent both on offense and defense, great jink saves on all the tanks, and the increase to bs4...

Ultimately I am glad I had falcons, since they provide pretty reasonable and consistant long range anti tank fire power which I feel like many Eldar lists neglect. The Prism Cannon looks tasty yes, but its still just one shot, or one small blast, against most people who know how to use unit coherency its unlikely a prism will get more than 2 terminators under a small blast template anyway. Falcons got a lot better with Double Guide Farseers combined with their increase to s4. I also really like the ability to pick up small squads of infantry. Whenever I actually play a game I inevitably take some casualties on my tanks, being able to run a squad into a falcon or empty wave serpent is an excellent ability, and its nice to keep my transport options open.

Battlefocus is excellent, although I need to make a point of remembering to do it! Its so new, and its really easy to forget. It pairs very well with fleet and really gives the eldar weapons some great flexibility. Being able to run into melta range and unload with dragons is a great way to get a bit more reach, and conversly opening fire at 18 inches away with Dire Avengers, then running out of move + rapid fire range of space marines or other similar units is also very cool. It is also insane on Warp Spiders who can move 3d6 after shooting with a re-roll on the run dice...

I did get to screw around with the Shard of Anaris as well. Ultimately I like it and think its worth it. I didn't instant kill anybody, but when you consider that it has built in fearless its useful to have. I am less sure of the Banshee Mask. I like the idea of it, and it would be useful in hunting thigns like my own Slaaneshi lord, BUT it only works when the Autarch charges, so probably won't be getting much actual use, and dropping the mask and a scatter laser from my war walker will free up enough points for all underslung cannons on all of my Wave Serpent, for that little extra bit of anti flier.

Out of curiousity. How are people liking vectored engines. I would like them if they were a bit cheaper, as it lets you get your hull guns lined up vs your preferred enemy, then about face to plant your front armour in the best location. But that situation doesn't present itself often, and at 15 points per serpent is really expensive. Holofields are worth every point though!

I like the list.

I see we disagree on the Falcon vs Fire Prism and it's allright There is no wrong answer there simply a difference in taste.

As for the Autarch, while I understand the use of the Chainsword to get access to Rending it does not combine it's effects with Instant Death of the Shard of Anaris.

That said I might risk it and drop the chainsword altogether from the Autarch. Put the points somewhere else.

The Shard itself is +2 strength, rending, fearless, and in challenges fleshbane and insntant death

Due to the Remanants of Glory Rules though, the Shard needs to replace one of the Autarch's weapons, and since Phil decided he doesn't get a generic ccw, you would have to trade his shuri pistol for it. So if you want +1 attack for 2 ccw, you gotta pay the 3 points for the chainsword to replace. Which is a pain in the ass.

Ahh missed that part, looks good then

Seems like most of the list is fairly long range, except the jetbikes / avengers,

What do the dire avengers do turns 1-2?

Are they starting in the WS and rushing forward?

Its not necessarily about long range vs short range as opposed to burst fire vs sustained fire.

Burst fire units generally have powerful short ranged guns. which can focus a lot of fire power onto a single spot. With these types of untis its generally preferable for them to have maneuverability so that you can apply this pressure where it is needed. You typically aren't planning on shooting with them every turn, and generally they accomplish tasks like killing things that need to die in one turn, or finishing off troops from an objective. In the list I posted these are Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, and Jetbikes.

Sustained fire on the other hand is your longer ranged stuff, generally its not as puncy as the shorter ranged burst fire units, but due to their range they can keep firing throughout the game wearing the opponent down. In the list I posted these are the Tanks, and the Rangers.

NOW, mobility is nice for both types of fire power. In the case of burst fire mobility- either in the form of improved movement (jetbikes, warp spiders) or transports (Fire Dragons / Dire Avengers) it can help you get into position to bring your shooting to bear and eliminate key threats to your list. On the other hand, mobility is nice for sustained fire units because often times they can mitigate the effect of your opponent's burst fire units by moving away from them. Thus allowing you to continue wearing your opponent down.

I am a firm believer that a bit of both burst and sustained fire is needed in a good competitive eldar list. Just because a unit has short ranged doesn't mean you always want to move towards the enemy. Sometimes its good to let the enemy move towards you, sometimes you want to to flat out into your opponents face and the 3+ holofield jink is awesome as well. What you want to do often depends on your opponent, but at the end of the day having a movement advantage really helps dicate the flow of the battle against both armies that can out assault you, or out shoot you.

 akaean wrote:
Its not necessarily about long range vs short range as opposed to burst fire vs sustained fire.

Burst fire units generally have powerful short ranged guns. which can focus a lot of fire power onto a single spot. With these types of untis its generally preferable for them to have maneuverability so that you can apply this pressure where it is needed. You typically aren't planning on shooting with them every turn, and generally they accomplish tasks like killing things that need to die in one turn, or finishing off troops from an objective. In the list I posted these are Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, and Jetbikes.

Sustained fire on the other hand is your longer ranged stuff, generally its not as puncy as the shorter ranged burst fire units, but due to their range they can keep firing throughout the game wearing the opponent down. In the list I posted these are the Tanks, and the Rangers.

NOW, mobility is nice for both types of fire power. In the case of burst fire mobility- either in the form of improved movement (jetbikes, warp spiders) or transports (Fire Dragons / Dire Avengers) it can help you get into position to bring your shooting to bear and eliminate key threats to your list. On the other hand, mobility is nice for sustained fire units because often times they can mitigate the effect of your opponent's burst fire units by moving away from them. Thus allowing you to continue wearing your opponent down.

I am a firm believer that a bit of both burst and sustained fire is needed in a good competitive eldar list. Just because a unit has short ranged doesn't mean you always want to move towards the enemy. Sometimes its good to let the enemy move towards you, sometimes you want to to flat out into your opponents face and the 3+ holofield jink is awesome as well. What you want to do often depends on your opponent, but at the end of the day having a movement advantage really helps dicate the flow of the battle against both armies that can out assault you, or out shoot you.

Sure, I'm just trying to figure out how the dire avengers do their job.

Turn 1: WS gets close
Turn 2: Dire avengers disembark, shoot, run if necessary
Turn 3: Dire avengers are probably dead

This is also why I'm thinking wraithguard > fire dragons, they have the potential to survive after jumping out of the WS

jcress410 wrote:

Sure, I'm just trying to figure out how the dire avengers do their job.

Turn 1: WS gets close
Turn 2: Dire avengers disembark, shoot, run if necessary
Turn 3: Dire avengers are probably dead

This is also why I'm thinking wraithguard > fire dragons, they have the potential to survive after jumping out of the WS

Ah I see. Well your scenario is correct. If I were to play my Dire Avengers like that, they would probably all die on either the bottom of turn 2 or the top of turn 3 depending on if I went first or second. Really what we have here is a misunderstanding of what the Dire Avenger's job is.

They don't have to be firing as soon as possible to do their job, nor do they have to move into their shuriken catapults range as soon as possible either. Really what the Dire Avengers are for is to stay in the wave serpent, and engage isolated targets, or jump out and focus fire on threats alongside other elements of the army.

Placing Dire Avengers directly infront of the enemy and expecting them to do anything is of course going to end in tears. What they are really for is Objectives. They have enough fire power to be threatening to other troop level opponents, and when combined with other shooting can often take over objectives from hostile enemies. They are also useful for engaging isolated enemies that are getting too close to your face, you can hop out, and deal with them by focus firing alongside other units in your army, sometimes you need that extra burst of Shuriken Fire.

Its also important not to underestimate the Shimmer Shield, sometimes a game will be ending and that 5++ is the only thing standing between a victory and a Heldrake Vector Striking + Bale Flamering you off of the objective. Not even wraithguard are safe from that if the Heldrake pops its daemonforge!

The reason I went into the burst fire vs sustained fire explanation is because it is not necessary to move Dire Avengers into range immediately, often you will want to hang back, and wait for the opportune moment to unload with your catapults, there isn't any rush to start firing on turn 2, so there isn't any need to put your Avengers in a compromising position. Keep them in your back pocket. Even if they never shoot their guns once, they can still win you the game if they hold that crucial objective. Who knows, you also might really wish you had a 16 or so more suriken cannon shots to help push the enemy back from a key location as well.

As for Fire Dragons vs Wraigh Guard. Fire Dragons got heavy aspect armor and battle focus, which is nice. They are also 50 points cheaper than wraiguard generally. Its also worth noting that Fire Dragons in melta range have a significantly better chance of eliminating a land raider than Wraithguard. Sometimes you need that Land Raider Dead. and Fire Dragons may be the guarnetee you need. On the flip side Wraithguard can be scoring with a spirit seer. So both have their merits.

Regarding Holofields:

Each field helps to protect 3 hull points. So for each vehicle there's 3x a 1/6 chance that it will do something. On average, half the fields will thus delay the skimmers death with a hull point. It will, on avarage, die within the next 2 glances/pens.

This is assuming the opponent doesn't use Ignore Cover fire. We have the entire turn 1 if we go 2nd with no holofield support, the Tau codex will ignore cover. Vector Strikes, Hive Guard, all close combat attacks and whatever else all ignore cover saves.

Some vehicles won't get shot at, those turns the upgrade won't do anything.
Some vehicles will be wrecked before it's hull points are up, the field isn't "used up fully".

Do you still think it's worth it to invest 5x 15 = 75 points?
Honest question, I'm not sure myself.

 Nivoglibina wrote:
Regarding Holofields:

Each field helps to protect 3 hull points. So for each vehicle there's 3x a 1/6 chance that it will do something. On average, half the fields will thus delay the skimmers death with a hull point. It will, on avarage, die within the next 2 glances/pens.

This is assuming the opponent doesn't use Ignore Cover fire. We have the entire turn 1 if we go 2nd with no holofield support, the Tau codex will ignore cover. Vector Strikes, Hive Guard, all close combat attacks and whatever else all ignore cover saves.

Some vehicles won't get shot at, those turns the upgrade won't do anything.
Some vehicles will be wrecked before it's hull points are up, the field isn't "used up fully".

Do you still think it's worth it to invest 5x 15 = 75 points?
Honest question, I'm not sure myself.

Even against tau, the field requires them to allocate one more markerlight to ignore cover entirely

"Is it worth it?" probably depends on what's going inside the WS

That is an excellent question, and one that will require some playtesting. It is worth noting that at least in terms of invulnerable saves people are willing to spend a lot of points to tick their save from 4++ to 3++.

16% doesnt' seem like a lot at first, but it adds up fast, and the difference is amplified by fortune if you happen to roll it, a 5+ with a re-roll is about 55%, a 4+ with a reroll is 75%, and a 3+ with a re-roll is around 88% which can be gotten by Flat Out. A lot of armies don't have the luxury that the Tau have of ignoring cover saves and blast masters, thunderfire cannons, baleflamers, Collosus, and whirlwinds aren't particularly good anti tank weapons vs av12.

I think holofields are better on Wave Serpents, due to the shield, because of the nature of the Serpent Shield, if it isn't popped generally the only way to kill a wave serpent is by hullpoint drain, so giving yourself that little bit of extra survivability can be hugely helpful keeping your tanks around throughout the game.

But when you put it in terms of costing 75 points, it becomes more questionable as to whether I am getting 75 points worth of survivability out of that investment. that I'm not sure. I will have to playtest a bit.

So far my experience with holos have been positive, but I feel much safer with 4+ than 5+.

jcress410 wrote:


Even against tau, the field requires them to allocate one more markerlight to ignore cover entirely

2 marker lights provide ignore cover to one shooting unit, it doesn't matter if it's a 3+, 4+ or 5+. Holofield doens't influence that.
I agree it will depend on the circumstances, it's a lot more useful vs Necrons for instance.

Indeed. Depending on how prevalent Tau is, Holofields may not be worth it at all.

Quickly running through the list, dropping all of the Holofields would allow me to purchase a second War Walker for some more Shuriken Love, as well as the Spirit Stone on the Farseer for lowering the cost of the warp charge 2 powers. The extra fire power and psychic potential might more than make up for the added jink saves. I will have to playtest both varients to be sure.

List without Holofields. 70 points on Holofields is quite a few. So this test list has no holofields. I will be testing this list next time I play.

(143) Autarch- Warp Jump Generator, Banshee Mask, Fusion Gun, Chain Sword, Shard of Anaris
(120) Farseer- Jetbike, Singing Spear
(55) Warlock- Jetbike, Singing Spear

(60) 5 Rangers
(60) 5 Rangers
(122) 6 Guardian Jetbikes- 2 Shuriken Cannon
(267) 9 Dire Avengers- Exarch, Shimmer Shield + Power Sword : Wave Serpent- tl Scatter Laser

(260) 5 Fire Dragons- Exarch, Fast Shot : Wave Serpent- tl Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
(240) 5 Fire Dragons : Wave Serpent- tl Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

(133) 7 Warp Spiders

(135) Falcon- Bright Lance
(135) Falcon- Bright Lance
(120) 2 War Walkers

Picks up another warwalker, for a bit more s6 loving, and I managed to squeeze in a Fast Shot Dragon Exarch. 2 fusion gun shots at bs5 seems pretty solid, especially since the upgrade actually makes the squad shoot better than a 6th fire dragon would. Otherwise the list is largely the same as the last one. Whelp. Lets get to playtesting with and without holofields.

I had good results this week with a fast shot fire pike exarch.

Good thinking on the holo field points. I need to try this out as well!