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Made in ap
Furious Raptor




Melbourne Australia

I had a close game today with Space Marine. And I lost because I couldn't denied that last objective my opoonent was holding.

My heldrake flew over a squad of scouts which 3 of them is in range to claim the objective.

I rolled a total of 4 hits on the squads. And wounded them all. So 4 scouts dead. Which would have denied him that objective.

The question here is. Does he removed the model nearer to the drake's initial position or from the position where the drake ended its movement.

In this case it matters. Because I ended my movement with the objective behind the drake. And only 3 scouts were in range to claim it.

If the models was to be removed in reference to my final position. Then it would have been a game chnager.

Any thoughts on this guys?

FOR THE DARK GODS
Word Bearers 6000 Points
 
   
Made in eu
Executing Exarch






It's in the BRB faq - Hits are allocated randomly to the squad.
It's not the nearest model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/05 14:09:49


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in ap
Furious Raptor




Melbourne Australia

What do you mean randomly? So roll a d6?


FOR THE DARK GODS
Word Bearers 6000 Points
 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




If there were only 4 Scouts in that squad, I guess you wouldn't care, because they would be all dead But PredaKhaine is correct, supposed to use Random Allocation.

Now the question is, if you have like 10 Scouts there, and wound 4, how does one randomly choose which get killed? Roll 4 D10s, numbering them from one side to the other?

Random Allocation also happens to dudes inside exploded transports, and Daemonically Possessed transports.
   
Made in eu
Executing Exarch






For random allocation in a 10 man squad, I number each guy from 2 to 11, then roll 2d6.

Whoevers number comes up is removed.

 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in ap
Furious Raptor




Melbourne Australia

Alright I see. Thanks for the help. 1 last question.

Define 4d10?

FOR THE DARK GODS
Word Bearers 6000 Points
 
   
Made in eu
Executing Exarch






That would be 4 ten sided dice

 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in ap
Furious Raptor




Melbourne Australia

So 1st dice. 1 to 6
2nd dice 7 to 12? And so on?

FOR THE DARK GODS
Word Bearers 6000 Points
 
   
Made in eu
Executing Exarch






If you start labelling them from 2 upwards, you need roll both dice at once - otherwise, you roll your first dice and one of the guys is taken away. 7-12 would never come up.

So, start at one end of the squad, make the first guy number 2 (the smallest number you can roll on 2d6 at once) and give them numbers. I find numbering them going along in order makes thing simple for me.

Then I roll 2 dice - the result is a number from 2 to 11 and I take the corresponding man away.

This is just the way I do it. You could just as easily put numbers in a hat and get someone to pull a number out or use a ten sided dice. As long as its random

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/06/05 14:44:53


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Rolling on 2D6 for larger squads isn't really random though. With the bell curve in probability of the rolls on two dice the model numbered at 7 stands a much higher chance of being removed than any other model.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

PredaKhaine wrote:
If you start labelling them from 2 upwards, you roll both dice at once - otherwise, you roll your first dice and one of the guys is taken away. 7-12 would never come up.

So, start at one end of the squad, make the first guy number 2 (the smallest number you can roll on 2d6 at once) and give them numbers. I find numbering them going along in order makes thing simple for me.

Then I roll 2 dice - the result is a number from 2 to 11 and I take the corresponding man away.

that is a terrible way to remove models as number 7 would come up far more often that guy number 2 or 12.

(GW Method) A good way I have found to randomly allocate to 10 guys is to split them into 2 groups of 5, label 1 group of 5 (Group A) 1-3, the other group (Group B) 4-6 then roll a D6. on a 1-3 you then assign each of those five a number 1-5 and roll a D6 If you get a 6 you need to roll again. Repeat as needed with as even of groups as possible. (So if you have 7 guys Group A would have 4 guys and group B would have 3 guys).

(True Random Method) The more precise method, that takes longer to roll out, is to roll a D6 for each model, the highest number takes the wound, on a tie, say 3 models all come up with a 6, roll those three again to figure out the highest score and for who takes the wound.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/05 15:15:53


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






PredaKhaine wrote:
If you start labelling them from 2 upwards, you need roll both dice at once - otherwise, you roll your first dice and one of the guys is taken away. 7-12 would never come up.

So, start at one end of the squad, make the first guy number 2 (the smallest number you can roll on 2d6 at once) and give them numbers. I find numbering them going along in order makes thing simple for me.

Then I roll 2 dice - the result is a number from 2 to 11 and I take the corresponding man away.

This is just the way I do it. You could just as easily put numbers in a hat and get someone to pull a number out or use a ten sided dice. As long as its random
Only your way isn't random, it's a bell curve with a preference to the number 7.

IIRC, the rulebook gives an example of how to do it randomly:
- Split the unit into groups of 6 models.
- Number the groups and roll a dice (presuming less than 6 groups).
- Roll a dice to see which model is hit within that group.
- Rince, repeat.

Obviously this can be streamlined (10 models? 2 groups of 5, roll a D2 to pick a group then a D6 re-rolling 6's for model), and works fairly easily for units of up to 36 models.

{Edit} Beaten to it by DR :-)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/05 14:49:12


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

PredaKhaine wrote:
If you start labelling them from 2 upwards, you need roll both dice at once - otherwise, you roll your first dice and one of the guys is taken away. 7-12 would never come up.

So, start at one end of the squad, make the first guy number 2 (the smallest number you can roll on 2d6 at once) and give them numbers. I find numbering them going along in order makes thing simple for me.

Then I roll 2 dice - the result is a number from 2 to 11 and I take the corresponding man away.

This is just the way I do it. You could just as easily put numbers in a hat and get someone to pull a number out or use a ten sided dice. As long as its random
The problem with that approach is that it's not an even distribution - guy #2 is much, much less likely to die than guys #7.

If you have more than 6 models to randomize amongst, and you don't have dice with higher numbers lying around, you can do progressive rolling - divide the squad into equal-sized blocks of no more than six models, and roll to select between those blocks, and then roll again with each block.

So, for a squad of 10 scouts:
Guys 1-5 are 1 block; 6-10 are the second.
Roll a d6; on a 1-3, you're in block #1, and on a 4-6 you're in block #2.
Roll a d6 again within the block to identify the selected model (rerolling results of 6 in this case).

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Must have been a race to get that post in, poor guy had 4 people tell him he was wrong within 3 minutes of each other.
   
Made in au
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

kissmymom wrote:
What do you mean randomly? So roll a d6?



roll a D6, giving each of them a number.

if there are more numbers left, (in this case there are 5? so 6.) re-roll that result until you get another number.

 
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

Always handy having a D10, D20 and other non-standard dice in your collection for things like this.
   
Made in mx
Morphing Obliterator





Mexico

Or you can download an apple/android dice roll app and roll a 1dX, where X is the number of models in the squad

I use Dice Ex for my iphone and it is a lot easier that way and faster.

CSM 10k points
IG 3k points
Orks 2k points
WoC 3.5k points
VC 2.5k points
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The process for random allocation as described by GW when more than 6 models is split the squad into equal parts(or as close as you can get to it) and roll for a part. Then number the models in the part and roll for the dude hit.

so if there were 14 models in a squad you would split the squad into 5,5,4 and roll a d3 to select one part. Lets say your end up selecting the part with 4 models. You would then number the dudes roll a d6 and reroll results of 5 and 6 till you got a 1,2,3 or 4. Repeat again for each random allocation.

Easy peasy. Or as other said get a random number generator for your phone and go to town.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
kissmymom wrote:
What do you mean randomly? So roll a d6?



roll a D6, giving each of them a number.

if there are more numbers left, (in this case there are 5? so 6.) re-roll that result Roll again until you get another number.


FTFY

Roll it again, do not Re-Roll it, as you can never re-roll a re-roll.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/05 15:12:36


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





the dudes in the 4 model part have a slightly higher chance of dying using the gw method but this is how the describe doing it.
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope





PredaKhaine wrote:
For random allocation in a 10 man squad, I number each guy from 2 to 11, then roll 2d6.

Whoevers number comes up is removed.


This is not random. It is heavily stacked against the guy with number 7.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anacortes

Why didn't you vector strike then flame them. Prolly all would have died. Then no need for random anything.

In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




When I have to pick random models, I use a slightly quicker way which doesn't need much calculation. I roll the scatter dice and let the arrow decide where the hits should come from and then allocate the hits as if they were shooting attacks. Bigger squads will have models in the middle which will have no chance at being hit first but will have a higher chance of being hit eventually no matter where the shots come from. This is a highly recommended way to do it, if you want a fluent game play.

Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut



Aizuwakamatsu, Fukushima, Japan

Chaospling wrote:
When I have to pick random models, I use a slightly quicker way which doesn't need much calculation. I roll the scatter dice and let the arrow decide where the hits should come from and then allocate the hits as if they were shooting attacks. Bigger squads will have models in the middle which will have no chance at being hit first but will have a higher chance of being hit eventually no matter where the shots come from. This is a highly recommended way to do it, if you want a fluent game play.


And is absolutely not a random allocation method, as you yourself point out there are models that won't be hit first and that the next model hit is dependant on the last. So it's fine if you and your opponent's agree, but it's not Random and so isn't following the rules.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Chrysis wrote:
Chaospling wrote:
When I have to pick random models, I use a slightly quicker way which doesn't need much calculation. I roll the scatter dice and let the arrow decide where the hits should come from and then allocate the hits as if they were shooting attacks. Bigger squads will have models in the middle which will have no chance at being hit first but will have a higher chance of being hit eventually no matter where the shots come from. This is a highly recommended way to do it, if you want a fluent game play.


And is absolutely not a random allocation method, as you yourself point out there are models that won't be hit first and that the next model hit is dependant on the last. So it's fine if you and your opponent's agree, but it's not Random and so isn't following the rules.


No not exactly random, but it's still far out to call this kind of solution "not following the rules". Just relax and lighten up.

Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut



Aizuwakamatsu, Fukushima, Japan

Chaospling wrote:
Chrysis wrote:
Chaospling wrote:
When I have to pick random models, I use a slightly quicker way which doesn't need much calculation. I roll the scatter dice and let the arrow decide where the hits should come from and then allocate the hits as if they were shooting attacks. Bigger squads will have models in the middle which will have no chance at being hit first but will have a higher chance of being hit eventually no matter where the shots come from. This is a highly recommended way to do it, if you want a fluent game play.


And is absolutely not a random allocation method, as you yourself point out there are models that won't be hit first and that the next model hit is dependant on the last. So it's fine if you and your opponent's agree, but it's not Random and so isn't following the rules.


No not exactly random, but it's still far out to call this kind of solution "not following the rules". Just relax and lighten up.


In a multi model selection the second model chosen is dependent on who the first model chosen was. So no, not Random. And thus not Random allocation. So no, it isn't following the rules. Which is fine if you all agree and are aware that it is the case. Which is why I said "not following the rules" and not " is cheating."
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Easiest solution: buy a D20, they are usually pretty cheap.

Though, to be honest, I'm usually pretty careless about random allocation and just let my opponent remove whatever he wants. It's a freaking Heldrake, it's not like I need some other advantage
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Chaospling wrote:
Chrysis wrote:
Chaospling wrote:
When I have to pick random models, I use a slightly quicker way which doesn't need much calculation. I roll the scatter dice and let the arrow decide where the hits should come from and then allocate the hits as if they were shooting attacks. Bigger squads will have models in the middle which will have no chance at being hit first but will have a higher chance of being hit eventually no matter where the shots come from. This is a highly recommended way to do it, if you want a fluent game play.


And is absolutely not a random allocation method, as you yourself point out there are models that won't be hit first and that the next model hit is dependant on the last. So it's fine if you and your opponent's agree, but it's not Random and so isn't following the rules.


No not exactly random, but it's still far out to call this kind of solution "not following the rules". Just relax and lighten up.

Given it isnt following the rules, as it is not a random method (the first model chosen influences the 2nd and subsequent models, making them dependent) at all.

You are told to use random, which requires discrete, independent events. You have created dependent events. This is fine as a houserule, however in this forum it is usefult o point out when someone is proposing something outside of the rules.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




I'm quite aware of all this, maybe it what just the tone which irritated me.

Another possibility, though I try to avoid giving all models a number when figuring this out, is using the ruler and either point yourself or have a third person point a finger on a number between 1 and the amount of models in the unit or just write the number down if possible. The player(s) not pointing on the ruler doesn't know where he's pointing of course. The player(s) not pointing, say a number between 1 and the number of models out loud, one after the other, doesn't matter and add those numbers to the number pointed out on the ruler. If the number is higher than the amount in the unit, then add the rest to 1. The number found is the number of the model being hit.

Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in us
Beast of Nurgle




 Cheexsta wrote:
Easiest solution: buy a D20, they are usually pretty cheap.

Though, to be honest, I'm usually pretty careless about random allocation and just let my opponent remove whatever he wants. It's a freaking Heldrake, it's not like I need some other advantage


Unless i am playing TFG, this is what I do too. As a fellow CSM player I just let them take whatever they want. Then flame the ones that didn't die from the vector strike, lol.

darkcloak wrote:

I don't give a damn about GW, their crap rules, their extortionist prices, hot models, limited edition books, Digital Release and spam in a box armies. I don't care about Forgeworld or their shoddy resin and their wacky unit rules or whether or not they're allowed. I don't care. I don't.

I love Warhammer 40000 and if you want to try to spoil that for me, or impose your own vision of it onto mine, then you can go suck a lemon.
 
   
 
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