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System: Warmachine
Faction: Protectorate of Menoth
Casters: 1/1
Points: 25/25
High Exemplar Kreoss (*5pts)
* Vanquisher (8pts)
Avatar of Menoth (11pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Exemplar Bastions (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
The Wrack (3 wracks) (1pts)

What do you guys think? I know it is lacking in Infantry with only the bastions but with Defender's Ward they should be able to take quite a few hits without going down. 1 jack under Kreoss? Was debating a Templar and a Vanquisher but obviously at 25pts that isn't possible with the Avatar in the list.

TheMostWize wrote:
System: Warmachine
Faction: Protectorate of Menoth
Casters: 1/1
Points: 25/25
High Exemplar Kreoss (*5pts)
* Vanquisher (8pts)
Avatar of Menoth (11pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Exemplar Bastions (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
The Wrack (3 wracks) (1pts)

What do you guys think? I know it is lacking in Infantry with only the bastions but with Defender's Ward they should be able to take quite a few hits without going down. 1 jack under Kreoss? Was debating a Templar and a Vanquisher but obviously at 25pts that isn't possible with the Avatar in the list.

Honestly... I'd change out the Avatar for a Reckoner, a Vassal and a spare point for something else. The Reckoner allows a good assassination threat when pKreoss pops his feat - everyone drops, and the reckoner can get two free shots (one from the vassal) right on the enemy caster. It also allows the early sniping of certain solos, which can be handy. The Avatar is great, most definitely, but I'd rather have the Reckoner with pKreoss.

As for the spare point... you could throw in a Vassal Mechanik (I don't like him that much though), or take out the wracks and throw in a 2pt solo. Kreoss can run 2 jacks (especially since the Vanquisher is usually pretty focus light) without the Wracks, so it's a decent option. If you decided to go for the 2pt solo, perhaps Gorman, or a second Vassal, or Rhupert Carvolo (though he's better with a large unit), or a Paladin (though he's better with Vilmon).

Also, while it's not a bad list, I'd suggest getting some front line infantry as your next purchase after getting this lot. Bastions are good, but they generally work better on the counter-attack than taking charges. A unit of Errants, Zealots or Temple Flameguard make great screens to advance behind.

Are bastions not Medium based infantry or are you meaning they are good because they prevent the Bastions from being charged?

I do not own the Avatar or the Bastions at this point. I am planning on purchasing the Wracks and Choir and a Crusader Heavy Kit from a guy here on Dakka.

Perhaps I should not pick up the wracks right now and use that cash towards a Reckoner kit? And maybe instead of buying the bastions pick up some TFG and Gorman and a Vassal.

New list would look something like this then.

System: Warmachine
Faction: Protectorate of Menoth
Casters: 1/1
Points: 25/25
High Exemplar Kreoss (*5pts)
* Reckoner (8pts) - Curious why the recokoner? Why not say a Templar? Or even a standard Crusader?
* Vanquisher (8pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Temple Flameguard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)

I should also add that my main opponents are Winterguard Khador and Ravyn/MHSF Retribution.

The Reckoner because its all sorts of sexy.

Its got PoW17 Reach melee, Its got a critical fire pow13 assault weapon with a Def debuff, its speed 5, and it has Ashen Veil.

Not saying Templers or Crusaders aren't awesome too, but the Reckoner is just an amazing package.

So is assumed then that the Choir is what makes Menoth jacks more survivable in the ranged game.

I mean playing Cygnar you needed a jack with 21 ARM so that you had something to soak up shots.

I suppose with the Choir that isn't so much needed in Menoth. Just curious how they are going Toe-to-Toe with enemy heavies.

That's pretty much how it works. You get Hymn of Passage on your Jacks and the enemy can't shoot at them at all, unless they're magical shots.

Plus the Reckoner does have built in concealment from Ashen Veil which helps a little against shooting.

Looks like I need to pick up a Reckoner Kit then.

Yes, the reckoner is a brilliant jack, but the important thing in this list is it would allow you to play the ranged assassination game. Having a Reckoner or Redeemer allows you to keep your opponents caster far back for fear of assassination - Kreoss can charge 8, feat 14 to knock everyone down, Reckoner can charge 8 shoot 12 with a boosted shot, then get a second unboosted shot from a vassal. A boosted POW15 and an unboosted POW15 will kill an ARM 15 caster most of the time. Not so useful against Hordes who can transfer, of course. You don't have to play the ranged assassination game, but merely having the threat of it helps give you an advantage.

If you can get a good deal on the Wracks though, get them, they are a brilliant one point option, and you will definitely need them.

As for your second list, it looks pretty good to me, but I would say probably get the TFG officer and standard rather than the second vassal.

Now, just to talk a little bit about your matchups (winterguard khador and Ravvyn and MHSF). Winterguard shouldn't be too much of a problem for you at all, you have all the tools to deal with them. What they are is very high DEF (if taken with a caster who has Iron Flesh), and they get Tough or boosted attack rolls from Kovnik Joe. Two vanquisher templates a turn will decimate them, Kreoss can Purify to remove Iron Flesh if needed, and of course there's the feat - knocked down Winterguard are dead winterguard.

Ravvyn Snipe-Feat-Go though is a terrible thing to behold. Kreoss, at ARM 15, is a dead man if a full unit of MHSF shoot him, and there's not much he can do about it except stay well back until the Vanquisher can take a few out and your TFG can run tie the rest up. Ravvyn lists are one of the hardest matchups for us, as the MHSF can simply shoot past our jacks and take out our precious support (Choir and Vassals don't last long here), so you can't rely on them past turn one. I suggest having two choir members sing, and two stay well back in a second row, ready to run up after the MHSF has been neutralized. If you have too much trouble with this matchup, try using eFeora as your caster with a Redeemer. Her naturally high armour gives her much better protection against MHSF, and the auto-flaming Redeemer shots can really wipe them out. A Redeemer with Kreoss can also help, though if your opponent has the character jack Discordia, they'll be protected from normal blast damage.

The traditional pKreoss Pop'n'drop assassination traditionally uses a Redeemer.

Redeemer gets 3 Focus and Battle from the Choir.

Kreoss Feats, knocks enemy Warcaster down, redeemer gets into range and puts out 3 pow 14 shots that, even with Inaccurate, are hitting on practically anything but Snake Eyes. You even have an extra Focus to boost damage on one of them. Then you have the Ancillary Attack from the Vassal if you need another shot.


And yeah, MHSF are a pretty bad matchup for us due to that stupid UA and our reliance on focus and upkeep spells to keep our casters alive.

The best way to deal with them is to run either TFG or Errants up into their face. Once tied up in melee they're dead and their Defense isn't high enough to protect them from free strikes.